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[infangthief]

Here is a new game suggestion for forum play, derived from the Codenames that we all know and love.

It is not playtested, but I'd be thrilled if you're up for trying it out and seeing how it rolls.
Feel free to provide feedback before / during / after the game.

If you're interested, please /in.
It is also possible to join mid-game (crazy, huh?), but I won't start it unless there are a few indications of interest.

The game should work fine without any external moderation, but I intend to sit out for now so I can do any clarifying or moderating if needed. Hopefully it'll work well enough to run again and I can join in

The game description and rules... are in the next post.

[infangthief]

Codename Select

1. Introduction

• This is a Codenames-style forum game in which players compete individually rather than in teams. Everyone gets to give clues and guess clues!
• You can also challenge clues if you think they do not identify words clearly enough.
• Your score will depend on how well you understand other players' clues, and how well your clues are understood by them.

• You can join the game at any time, and your first turn will earn you 10 points!
• Thereafter, you score 1 point for each turn you take.
• You may also gain or lose points if a clue is challenged.
• There is no predefined turn order - you can take a turn at any time, except that you must allow at least two turns by other players in between your turns.
• The game finishes after 15 turns, and players are ranked according to score. (i.e. it is not intended to be "win or nothing")

2. Concepts and Terminology

2.1. The Grid

• The game uses a grid of 16 entries, randomly generated for each game. (Eg use a Codenames randomiser and remove the bottom row and right column.)
• Each entry is referred to as a "word", or "grid-word" even though some of them may actually be more than one word (eg "New York").

2.2. Propose -> Select/Reject -> Guess

• From the grid, words are Proposed (two at a time), Selected/Rejected and Guessed.
• Once a word has been Guessed, it may not be Selected, Rejected or Guessed again this game.

• Proposing: a player Proposes two words, by giving a Codenames-style clue which targets both words.
• Eg if Alice wanted to Propose HORSE and FIELD, she might give the clue "Fence"
• Selecting/Rejecting: a different player then Selects one of the Proposed words and Rejects the other, by giving a Codenames-style clue which targets one word but not the other.
• Eg if Bob wanted to Select FIELD and Reject HORSE, he might give the clue "Scarecrow"
• Guessing: another player then Guesses which word was Selected, by posting their guess explicitly.
• Eg Carol might Guess "Field".

2.3. Challenges

• The purpose of the clues is for the player who Proposes words and the player who Selects/Rejects them to reach a common understanding of which word was Selected and which was Rejected.
• Eg consider what happens if Bob says "Mailbox" instead of Scarecrow. Alice might be a bit puzzled, then notice that POST is in the grid and decide that maybe Bob thought she had Proposed FIELD and POST, not Horse. It is in Alice's interests now for her to run with Bob's understanding and decide that actually Field and Post are the words which she Proposed after all.
• If a player thinks that those two players have not reached a common understanding of which words were Selected and Rejected then they can challenge the clue that was used to Select/Reject.
• Eg if Dan thinks Alice and Bob aren't thinking about the same words, he might challenge Bob's clue. Then Alice and Bob would have to each say which grid-word they think was Selected by Bob's clue and which was Rejected, by sending PMs to Dan.
• Depending on Alice and Bob's ideas for the Selected/Rejected words, Alice, Bob, Carol and Dan may each gain or lose points.

2.4. Doing it all at once!

• On your turn you get to do a bit of everything: You Guess the word that was Selected by the previous player, you Select and Reject the words that were Proposed by the previous player, and you Propose two new words.
• The tricky thing is that you need to Select/Reject words and Propose two new words using the same clue; it should be a clue targeting three words: the word you are Selecting and the two words you are Proposing.
• Thus each turn comprises a Guess and also a clue targeting three words.

3. Rules

3.1. Set-up (grid and turns 1-2)

• Generate and post a 4-by-4 grid of words.
• Any player takes turn 1 (score 10 points!); Propose two words from the grid. You do this by posting a clue targeting the 2 words.
• Another player takes turn 2 (score 10 points!); decide which words you think were Proposed on turn 1, Select one of them, Reject the other and Propose two new words. You do this by posting a clue for 3 words, targeting the Selected and Proposed words.

3.2. Play (turns 3-15 and challenges)

• After turn 2 and before turn 15, there are three things you can do: take a turn, challenge an earlier clue, or pre-challenge the next clue.

• You can take a turn, so long as neither of the previous two turns were yours.
• To take a turn, you need to:
• Guess the word that was Selected by the previous player.
• Select and Reject the words that were Proposed by the previous player.
• Propose two more words.
• You must not Guess a word that was previously Guessed. You should not Select, Reject or Propose words which were previously Guessed.
• Your turn is a post which contains:
• The turn number.
• Your Guess for the word that was Selected by the previous player.
• A clue for 3 words, targeting the word you are Selecting and the two words you are Proposing.
• If it is your first turn, score 10 points, otherwise score 1 point.


• You can challenge an earlier clue.
• Let's say that turn <n> was played by Bob, and turn <n-1> was played by Alice.
• To challenge the clue on turn <n>, post something along the lines of "Challenge clue <n> by Bob. Alice and Bob please send me PMs with the words Selected and Rejected by Bob"
• Then, Alice and Bob each need to private-message the challenger, saying which words they think were Selected and Rejected by Bob on turn <n>. They must not include any words that were Guessed on turn <n> or earlier.
• Once you have received both PMs, make a post with the information and confirm the outcome of the challenge, as follows:
• If Alice and Bob's messages match up (and don't include any previously Guessed words), then they each gain 2 points. Otherwise they each lose 2 points.
• If Alice and Bob gain points, and turn <n+1> has been played (by Carol, say) before the challenge is resolved, then Carol gains or loses 1 point depending on whether her Guess was correct.
• If any of Alice, Bob or Carol lost points then your challenge was successful and you gain 1 point. Otherwise you lose 1 point.
• Note that challenging a clue always targets the Selecting/Rejecting aspect of that clue.
• If you think someone's clue does the Selecting/Rejecting clearly enough, but is not Proposing new words clearly enough, then the way to call it out is to wait and challenge the next clue, or even to pre-challenge the next clue (see below).
• If you think someone has made a wrong Guess on their turn, then the way to call it out is to challenge the clue from the previous turn.
• You may not challenge a clue from one of your own turns, or a turn either side of one of your turns. Similarly, if you challenge the latest clue, you may not then take the next turn.


• You can pre-challenge the next clue. This is effectively the same as challenging the next player's clue as soon as they give it.
• If you pre-challenge the next clue then the player who takes the next turn scores an extra point.
• If you pre-challenge the next clue then you cannot take either of the next two turns.

3.3. Game end

• The end of the game is triggered by someone taking turn 15.
• No new challenges may be made after this time, but challenges made before this time still need to be resolved.
• Once all challenges have been resolved, final ranking is done by score.

3.4. Scoring summary

Taking your first turn:	+10 points
Taking any other turn:	+1 point
Taking a turn that has been pre-challenged:	+1 extra point
Challenging a clue:	+1 point if successful (i.e. any other player loses points), -1 point otherwise
If your clue is challenged:	+2 points if you successfully identify the Selected and Rejected words, -2 points otherwise
If the clue after yours is challenged:	+2 points if you successfully identify the Selected and Rejected words, -2 points otherwise
If the clue before your Guess is challenged and the clue-giver gains points:	+1 point if your Guess matches the Selected word, -1 point otherwise

3.5. Notes:

• All clues should conform to standard Codenames rules (clues must be single words, relate to the meanings of the target words, not be any derivation of any grid words, no googling).
• When a challenge is made, play does not need to pause; there can be further turns (and challenges) while waiting for the challenge to be resolved.
• It is possible for multiple challenges to be in-flight at once; when responding to a challenge you should include the turn number that the challenge relates to.
• Please assist with resolving challenges in a timely manner. You may see a possibility for gaining some advantage by delaying, but that is not in the spirit of the game - don't do it.
• No clue may be challenged or pre-challenged more than once.
• The clue given on turn 1 cannot be challenged.
• The clue given on turn 15 is only relevant if it has been pre-challenged.

[infangthief]

Here is an example of a grid and a few turns - words that are Guessed during these turns are marked in italics.

ALPS	TELESCOPE	MEXICO	LETTER
BICYCLE	SHELL	SALT	DREAM
LOCK	COMPUTER	BOND	SNOW
ROBIN	POCKET	PIANO	CREAM

Turn 1
Christmas: 2

Turn 2
Mountain: 3

Turn 3
Guess: Snow
Clue Security: 3

Turn 4
Guess: Bicycle
Clue Money: 3

Turn 5
Guess: Bond
Clue Pick: 3

So here I am, wondering about taking turn 6, or maybe making a challenge. Here's my thought process:

• Turn 1 Christmas was probably a clue for SNOW and ROBIN
• So I think turn 2 Mountain was used to select Snow, reject Robin, and propose Alps and something. Not entirely sure what the something was. Does the turn 4 guess of Bicycle make sense? Ah yes, Mountain bike.
• Turn 3 guessed Snow, which matches what I thought. Then the Security clue wasn't entirely obvious. Lock, certainly. Looking at the guesses on turns 4 and 5 it seems people think the others must be Bicycle and Bond. I suppose if it is being used to select/reject between Bicycle and Alps, then it is good enough. Makes enough sense that I don't want to challenge it.
• Turn 4 guesses Bicycle, ok, that was proposed turn 2 and selected turn 3. The Money clue is to select Bond and reject Lock. What two words did it propose? Pocket money maybe. Not sure about the other one.
• Turn 5 guesses Bond, which seems fine. Pick Pocket makes sense, so Pocket is clearly the Money word being selected here. Not sure what word is being rejected, because I didn't fully understand the Money clue. What words are being proposed by Pick? You can Pick a Lock. Didn't we have Lock before? Yes, but it's ok, because Lock wasn't actually guessed at any point. What else? Maybe Cream (the best pick, the cream of the crop), maybe Shell (pick up shells at the beach), or maybe something else.

What could I do?

• I could go ahead and take turn 6, guessing Pocket, which I'm confident was proposed on turn 4 and selected on turn 5. Now finding a good clue to give is hard because I'm unsure which words were being proposed by "Pick". But probably it can be done, especially if my clue rejects Lock and selects a less obvious word like Cream or Shell.
• Or I could challenge an earlier turn. The clues seem clear enough except I think it isn't clear which words were being proposed by "Money". The way to call this out would be to challenge clue 5 (Pick). Then players D and E would have to tell me which words they think were being proposed by "Money" and selected/rejected by "Pick".
• Or I could even pre-challenge clue 6, if I think that the "Pick" clue was so bad at proposing words that no-one will be able to select/reject them clearly enough with their next clue. But I already had an idea how I might go about a clue for turn 6, so pre-challenging doesn't seem like a good plan here.
• Or I could chicken out and wait for someone else to take a turn. I could still go back and challenge clue 5 or 6 later in the game if I want to, if no-one else challenges them first.

Having considered all that, I post:
Challenge: clue 5 ("Pick") by player E. Players D and E please PM me which words you think were selected and rejected by player E.

To continue the example:

• I'm not allowed to take turn 6, because I challenged clue 5.
• Player B takes turn 6, guessing "Pocket" and giving the clue "Beaches: 3".
• Next day I get PMs from players D and E. Both of them say the selected word was "Pocket" and the rejected word was "Dream". Turns out they both Dream about Money, who knew.
• So I post those results. Then players D and E get 2 points each, player B gets 1 point, and I lose 1 point.

At this point, B, D and E are in the lead with 12 points each, A and C have 10 points each, and I am on -1. Maybe I should take a turn soon, to get myself 10 points!

[infangthief]

So... Codenames folks... no interest?

[scolapasta]

So... Codenames folks... no interest?

Honestly, it seemed complicated for me, in a way o couldn't really intuitively grasp.

[silverspawn]

It was too long for me to read it initially and then I forgot, but I read it now and I'd play if there is enough interest

[Galzria]

It was too long for me to read it initially and then I forgot, but I read it now and I'd play if there is enough interest

This - except I still haven’t quite found the time to read through it yet. But most likely would be in to at least give it a go.

[infangthief]

I'm hoping the game will be simpler than it looks from my rules explanation.

I can do the game as a kind of walk-through, commenting on what needs to happen next etc.

Anyway, it will need at least 4 to get started.

[scolapasta]

Sure, I'm willing to try.

[EFHW]

I'll play

[infangthief]

Cool. Thanks silverspawn, Galzria, scolapasta and EFHW.

I'll get this started, anyone else can join any time, and we'll see how it goes.

[infangthief]

Here's the grid:

TEAR	BLIZZARD	HELICOPTER	EAGLE
DOCTOR	MAKEUP	REVOLUTION	ANTHEM
BUNK	ZOMBIE	CAESAR	LAB
ROULETTE	HOTEL	SCARECROW	OLYMPUS

Anyone can take turn 1, just give a clue for any two grid-words.

[silverspawn]

Turn 1
flying: 2

[EFHW]

Turn 2
American: 3

[infangthief]

Nice start.

So every turn from now on needs to include a guess and a clue targeting three words.

Guess: turn 3, guess which word was proposed by silverspawn and selected by EFHW.
Clue: turn 3, select one of the words proposed by EFHW, and propose two more words.

Also, any clue from turn 2 onwards can be challenged, at any time.

Turn 3 can be taken by anyone except EFHW or silverspawn.

[Galzria]

Turn 3:

Guess: Eagle
Clue: War: 3

[infangthief]

Ok, so turn 4 can be taken by anyone other than Galzria or EFHW.

Guess which word was proposed by EFHW and selected by Galzria.
Give a clue to select one of the words proposed by Galzria and propose two more.

[scolapasta]

And I can pre-challenge too, right?

I'll try that:

pre-challenge

[infangthief]

Spicy. Yes you can. Ok, so whoever takes the next turn will get an extra point for it, but whatever their clue is, it is challenged by scolapasta.

Turn 4 can be taken by anyone other than Galzria, EFHW or scolapasta.

[infangthief]

So if silverspawn takes the next turn they will gain 2 points. If anyone else takes the next turn they will gain 11 points.

Then they and Galzria will each gain or lose 2 points depending on the outcome of the challenge.

[scolapasta]

uh-oh. I feel my pre challenge may have slowed things down here.

[EFHW]

silver is the only one who can take a turn now. Maybe he hasn't been on?

[scolapasta]

Oh, is fang not playing?

So that makes the pre challenge more interesting, I guess as it forces silver to go (in a 4 player game).

[silverspawn]

Sorry, also didn't realize I'm the only one who can take the turn. But I'm always on, of course.

Turn 4
Guess: Revolution
Clue: Human: 3

[silverspawn]

silver is the only one who can take a turn now. Maybe they haven't been on?

also not strictly speaking true since anyone else could join the game

[infangthief]

After turn 4:

TEAR	BLIZZARD	HELICOPTER	EAGLE
DOCTOR	MAKEUP	REVOLUTION	ANTHEM
BUNK	ZOMBIE	CAESAR	LAB
ROULETTE	HOTEL	SCARECROW	OLYMPUS

Turn 1
flying: 2

Turn 2
American: 3

Turn 3:
Guess: Eagle
Clue: War: 3

Turn 4
Guess: Revolution
Clue: Human: 3

Turn 4 was pre-challenged by scolapasta.

Scores:
silverspawn 12
EFHW 10
Galzria 10
(challenge results pending)

[infangthief]

To resolve the challenge, Galzria and silverspawn need to PM scolapasta with the words which silverspawn selected and rejected on turn 4. (They must not include either Eagle or Revolution.) Then scolapasta needs to report results here.

Turn 5 can be taken by anyone other than silverspawn, Galzria or scolapasta (i.e. EFHW or someone new).
If someone takes turn 5 before scolapasta reports the challenge results, then that player could gain or lose a point for their guess.

[Galzria]

To resolve the challenge, Galzria and silverspawn need to PM scolapasta with the words which silverspawn selected and rejected on turn 4. (They must not include either Eagle or Revolution.) Then scolapasta needs to report results here.

Turn 5 can be taken by anyone other than silverspawn, Galzria or scolapasta (i.e. EFHW or someone new).
If someone takes turn 5 before scolapasta reports the challenge results, then that player could gain or lose a point for their guess.

Do I specify which I think were selected and which were rejected, or do I just list two words? Do I confirm/deny the choice of Silver with ‘Revolution’, or ignore the guess entirely?

I could say:

I intended {X, Y, Z},
or
Rejected/Selected {A, B},
or
Word Rejected {Q}, Word Selected {R}

[infangthief]

To resolve the challenge, Galzria and silverspawn need to PM scolapasta with the words which silverspawn selected and rejected on turn 4. (They must not include either Eagle or Revolution.) Then scolapasta needs to report results here.

Turn 5 can be taken by anyone other than silverspawn, Galzria or scolapasta (i.e. EFHW or someone new).
If someone takes turn 5 before scolapasta reports the challenge results, then that player could gain or lose a point for their guess.

Do I specify which I think were selected and which were rejected, or do I just list two words? Do I confirm/deny the choice of Silver with ‘Revolution’, or ignore the guess entirely?

I could say:

I intended {X, Y, Z},
or
Rejected/Selected {A, B},
or
Word Rejected {Q}, Word Selected {R}

The bolded one.

And they don't necessarily have to be the two words you were thinking of when you gave your clue; you are allowed to update your thoughts in the light of silverspawn's guess and clue. Your aim should be to match silverspawn.

Also, don't say whether or not silverspawn's guess ("Revolution") is what you were expecting. That only comes to light if someone challenges your clue from turn 3.

[EFHW]

Turn 5
Guess: Caesar
Clue: Eye: 3

[silverspawn]

to clarify: I've sent scol the word that I intended to accept and reject with *my clue* of "Human". Was this correct?

[infangthief]

to clarify: I've sent scol the word that I intended to accept and reject with *my clue* of "Human". Was this correct?

Yes, the words that you intended to accept and reject with "Human".
One word that you intended to accept.
One word that you intended to reject.
Labelled to say which is which.

[silverspawn]

very good, then I did everything correctly.

[scolapasta]

To resolve the challenge, Galzria and silverspawn need to PM scolapasta with the words which silverspawn selected and rejected on turn 4. (They must not include either Eagle or Revolution.) Then scolapasta needs to report results here.

Turn 5 can be taken by anyone other than silverspawn, Galzria or scolapasta (i.e. EFHW or someone new).
If someone takes turn 5 before scolapasta reports the challenge results, then that player could gain or lose a point for their guess.

Do I specify which I think were selected and which were rejected, or do I just list two words? Do I confirm/deny the choice of Silver with ‘Revolution’, or ignore the guess entirely?

I could say:

I intended {X, Y, Z},
or
Rejected/Selected {A, B},
or
Word Rejected {Q}, Word Selected {R}

The bolded one.

And they don't necessarily have to be the two words you were thinking of when you gave your clue; you are allowed to update your thoughts in the light of silverspawn's guess and clue. Your aim should be to match silverspawn.

Also, don't say whether or not silverspawn's guess ("Revolution") is what you were expecting. That only comes to light if someone challenges your clue from turn 3.

Interesting, I did not realize that they could change what they were thinking (in fact I was going to post asking about this and if glaz should've had to send me his before the next turn happened, but with this, then obviously not)... makes the idea of pre challenging more risky now...

[scolapasta]

OK, so I received both PMs. Do I know post what they sent, eg.

silver: Selected X, Rejected Y
Galz: Selected Z, Rejected W

or just whether they match or not.

[infangthief]

OK, so I received both PMs. Do I know post what they sent, eg.

silver: Selected X, Rejected Y
Galz: Selected Z, Rejected W

or just whether they match or not.

Yes, post what they gave, so everyone knows the info that you do.

[scolapasta]

I assumed so, just wanted to confirm, thanks!

Galzria:
Word Selected: Doctor
Word Rejected: Bunk

silverspawn:
Selected Caesar
Rejected Helicopter

So the challenge was successful.


What would be useful now (for me, at least) is a recap of who can do what at this point.

[infangthief]

After turn 5:

TEAR	BLIZZARD	HELICOPTER	EAGLE
DOCTOR	MAKEUP	REVOLUTION	ANTHEM
BUNK	ZOMBIE	CAESAR	LAB
ROULETTE	HOTEL	SCARECROW	OLYMPUS

Turn 1
flying: 2

Turn 2
American: 3

Turn 3:
Guess: Eagle
Clue: War: 3

Turn 4
Guess: Revolution
Clue: Human: 3

Turn 4 was successfully pre-challenged by scolapasta.

Turn 5
Guess: Caesar
Clue: Eye: 3

Scores:
EFHW 11
silverspawn 10
Galzria 8
scolapasta 1

Turn 6 may be taken by anyone other than EFHW or silverspawn.

[EFHW]

Should I have an extra point for guessing scola's word correctly?

[scolapasta]

Turn 6
Guess: Doctor
Clue: Watery: 3

[infangthief]

Should I have an extra point for guessing scola's word correctly?

You would only have gained (or lost) a point for your guess if Galzria and silverspawn had been in agreement about which words were selected and rejected.

If the clue before your Guess is challenged and the clue-giver gains points:

+1 point if your Guess matches the Selected word, -1 point otherwise

I might reconsider this rule in future, but as it stands you wouldn't have got the point even if Galzria and silverspawn had both said Caesar was selected, if they had disagreed about the rejected word.

[EFHW]

Ok

[EFHW]

Who can go now?

[scolapasta]

I think anyone but you or me, ie anyone but the last two players. At least, that was the case after turn 3, right before I prechallenged.

[infangthief]

I think anyone but you or me, ie anyone but the last two players. At least, that was the case after turn 3, right before I prechallenged.

Correct. In general it is anyone but the last two players. And you can't have the turn either side of a turn you've challenged.

It seems quite a stretch to make this work with just 4. Kind of hoping some other codenames stars would show up. joth, Swowl, faust are you interested?
And I can join in if people are ok with that?

[Galzria]

I think anyone but you or me, ie anyone but the last two players. At least, that was the case after turn 3, right before I prechallenged.

Correct. In general it is anyone but the last two players. And you can't have the turn either side of a turn you've challenged.

It seems quite a stretch to make this work with just 4. Kind of hoping some other codenames stars would show up. joth, Swowl, faust are you interested?
And I can join in if people are ok with that?

I can poke Swowl and make him join.

[infangthief]

I can poke Swowl and make him join.

Go for it.
And I'm going to go ahead and join.

Turn 7
Guess: Tear
Clue: Refuge: 3

[infangthief]

After turn 7:

TEAR	BLIZZARD	HELICOPTER	EAGLE
DOCTOR	MAKEUP	REVOLUTION	ANTHEM
BUNK	ZOMBIE	CAESAR	LAB
ROULETTE	HOTEL	SCARECROW	OLYMPUS

Turn 1
flying: 2

Turn 2
American: 3

Turn 3:
Guess: Eagle
Clue: War: 3

Turn 4
Guess: Revolution
Clue: Human: 3

Turn 4 was successfully pre-challenged by scolapasta.

Turn 5
Guess: Caesar
Clue: Eye: 3

Turn 6
Guess: Doctor
Clue: Watery: 3

Turn 7
Guess: Tear
Clue: Refuge: 3

Scores:
EFHW 11
scolapasta 11
silverspawn 10
infangthief 10
Galzria 8

Turn 8 may be taken by anyone other than infangthief or scolapasta.

[EFHW]

fang, if you are willing, it would really help to see how the scores have been allotted so far. I tried to figure it out, but ran into questions.

[EFHW]

Turn 8
Guess: Blizzard
Clue: Casino

[scolapasta]

Question about the rules: can you clarify this one:

You must not Guess a word that was previously Guessed. You should not Select, Reject or Propose words which were previously Guessed.

I guess mostly the "should not" part. i.e. is it allowed? if so, how does that work for Select especially, given that you cannot Guess.

[infangthief]

Guess gets a "must not" because it is enforceable - on turn 7 I would not have been allowed to guess Doctor, because that had been guessed previously.

When you make a Guess, it must not be a previously guessed word - that is enforceable so it makes sense to say "must not".
When you Select, Reject or Propose a word, it is just via a clue, so no-one actually knows what words you are thinking about. But it is a bad idea to think about a previously guessed word because if there is a challenge then you will run into trouble at that point. Hence "should not".

[infangthief]

fang, if you are willing, it would really help to see how the scores have been allotted so far. I tried to figure it out, but ran into questions.

As of turn 7:
EFHW took turn 2 (10 points) and turn 5 (1 point) = 11
scolapasta took turn 6 (10 points) and successfully challenged turn 4 (1 point) = 11
silverspawn took turn 1 (10 points) and turn 4 (1 point, +1 extra because turn 4 was pre-challenged), but failed the challenge (-2 points) = 10
infangthief took turn 7 (10 points) = 10
Galzria took turn 3 (10 points), but failed the challenge (-2 points) = 8

[Swowl]

Galz just literally poked me in the face. What’s going on here then?

[infangthief]

Hi Swowl! I'll attempt a brief imprecise summary; might be useful to all of us to explain it from a different angle. (Full rules and scoring are in post #1.)

We've had 8 turns of clueing and guessing words from this grid.
Each guess should fit both of the two previous clues.
Each clue needs to target one of the words that was targeted by the previous clue. It also needs to target 2 new words.
Why 2 new words and not just 1? To make it hard/interesting.
And if you are challenged, you need to be able to say what both of the previous player's new words were and which one your clue has selected.
Turns can be taken any time, but not by either of the last 2 players.
You can challenge any clue at any time, but you can't challenge a clue from a turn either side of one of your turns.

Here is the grid after turn 8. Guessed words are in orange and may not be reused:

TEAR	BLIZZARD	HELICOPTER	EAGLE
DOCTOR	MAKEUP	REVOLUTION	ANTHEM
BUNK	ZOMBIE	CAESAR	LAB
ROULETTE	HOTEL	SCARECROW	OLYMPUS

Turn 1
flying: 2

Turn 2
American: 3

Turn 3:
Guess: Eagle
Clue: War: 3

Turn 4
Guess: Revolution
Clue: Human: 3

Turn 4 was successfully pre-challenged by scolapasta.

Turn 5
Guess: Caesar
Clue: Eye: 3

Turn 6
Guess: Doctor
Clue: Watery: 3

Turn 7
Guess: Tear
Clue: Refuge: 3

Turn 8
Guess: Blizzard
Clue: Casino

Scores:
EFHW 12
scolapasta 11
silverspawn 10
infangthief 10
Galzria 8
everyone else on f.ds 0 (just to make us feel better)

Turn 9 may be taken by anyone other than EFHW or infangthief.

[silverspawn]

Challenge clue Casino by EFHW

[infangthief]

Challenge clue Casino by EFHW

Ok, so EFHW and I both need to PM silverspawn with which words we think were selected and rejected by that clue.

[infangthief]

Also, silverspawn cannot take turn 9.
So turn 9 needs to be Galzria, scolapasta, or someone new.

Also, if someone takes turn 9 before silverspawn reports back challenge results then that player may gain or lose a point for their guess. But only if EFHW and I agree on the selected and rejected words.

[silverspawn]

Challenge results:
EFHW and infangthief both
Select Hotel
Reject Bunk

[infangthief]

Hmm, so here's something missing from the rules.
Does the next player have to guess Hotel? Or can they guess something different? There are no points at stake for the guess, now that the challenge results are back.

I want to rule that the next player has to guess Hotel.
But I'm not sure what the rule would be if EFHW and I had disagreed about what word was selected.

[infangthief]

For the time being (in case it comes up in this game), I'm going to rule that if EFHW and I had disagreed about the selected word then the next player would be free to "guess" any unguessed word from the grid, effectively getting rid of some word they don't like.

But as we agreed on Hotel, the next player must "guess" Hotel.

I'll try to find some way to write this in a more intuitive way!

[Galzria]

Guess: Hotel
Clue: Bond: 3

[scolapasta]

Turn 10:
Guess: Roulette
Clue: Halloween: 3

[Swowl]

cool. let's see if I got this right.

Turn 11
Guess: MAKEUP
Clue: DECAPITATION 3

[Galzria]

Turn 12:
Guess: Zombie
Clue: Military: 3

[scolapasta]

Turn 13:
Guess: Helicopter
Clue: Sports: 3

[EFHW]

Turn 14
Guess: Anthem
Clue: Film: 3

[EFHW]

TEAR	BLIZZARD	HELICOPTER	EAGLE
DOCTOR	MAKEUP	REVOLUTION	ANTHEM
BUNK	ZOMBIE	CAESAR	LAB
ROULETTE	HOTEL	SCARECROW	OLYMPUS

[Swowl]

what's the timing rule for Challenges?
Like no go after the snap? or can we go back and challenge previous Turns?

[Swowl]

Turn 15
Guess: OLYMPUS
Clue: DARK

[Swowl]

this is a very fun/interesting version of the game.

[EFHW]

this is a very fun/interesting version of the game.

Agree!

[Galzria]

what's the timing rule for Challenges?
Like no go after the snap? or can we go back and challenge previous Turns?

I believe per the rules you can back date challenges, just be clear what you’re challenging

[infangthief]

what's the timing rule for Challenges?
Like no go after the snap? or can we go back and challenge previous Turns?

I believe per the rules you can back date challenges, just be clear what you’re challenging

You can back-date challenges, but once turn 15 has been taken no more challenges can be made.

3.3. Game end

• The end of the game is triggered by someone taking turn 15.
• No new challenges may be made after this time, but challenges made before this time still need to be resolved.
• Once all challenges have been resolved, final ranking is done by score.

[infangthief]

Well that ended quickly!
I hope you all enjoyed it. What seemed to work well or not?
And of course we're all free now to talk about what our clues really meant. EFHW, what was your third casino word?

I'll work out the final scoring shortly.

[infangthief]

Here is the final grid:

TEAR	BLIZZARD	HELICOPTER	EAGLE
DOCTOR	MAKEUP	REVOLUTION	ANTHEM
BUNK	ZOMBIE	CAESAR	LAB
ROULETTE	HOTEL	SCARECROW	OLYMPUS

Turn 1
flying: 2

Turn 2
American: 3

Turn 3:
Guess: Eagle
Clue: War: 3

Turn 4
Guess: Revolution
Clue: Human: 3

Turn 4 was successfully pre-challenged by scolapasta.

Turn 5
Guess: Caesar
Clue: Eye: 3

Turn 6
Guess: Doctor
Clue: Watery: 3

Turn 7
Guess: Tear
Clue: Refuge: 3

Turn 8
Guess: Blizzard
Clue: Casino

Turn 8 was unsuccessfully challenged by silverspawn

Guess: Hotel
Clue: Bond: 3

Turn 10:
Guess: Roulette
Clue: Halloween: 3

Turn 11
Guess: MAKEUP
Clue: DECAPITATION 3

Turn 12:
Guess: Zombie
Clue: Military: 3

Turn 13:
Guess: Helicopter
Clue: Sports: 3

Turn 14
Guess: Anthem
Clue: Film: 3

Turn 15
Guess: OLYMPUS
Clue: DARK

Scores:
EFHW 15 (4 turns and survived a challenge)
scolapasta 13 (3 turns and made successful challenge)
infangthief 12 (1 turn and survived a challenge)
Swowl 11 (2 turns)
Galzria 10 (3 turns and failed a challenge)
silverspawn 9 (2 turns, 1 was pre-challenged, failed a challenge and made unsuccessful challenge)

[Galzria]

Turn 3 has already been challenged so results were public:

That was my first round in and, honestly, I realized I had not really understood what was going on. I originally had “War: 5”, but re-glimpsed the rules before posting and realized I had to do 3, at which point I just adjusted to 3 without thinking challenge consequences through. At that point I just had to guess my most liked 2 and hope they matches.

Military was a call back to my challenged round, and I hoped “Helicopter (decapitation), Anthem & Bunk” would be obvious - which I think was successful - although somebody else can speak to whether or not they thought they were ditching Bunk here or not.

[EFHW]

I got your reference to the earlier clue. Helicopter-decapitation was super gruesome!

Helicopter was the 3rd casino word. Bit of a stretch, but I figured bigwigs probably helicopter to casinos sometimes. I think silver must have been wanting to challenge that, but did it too early. He needed to prechallenge or wait for the next turn to happen, right?

[EFHW]

Play again?

[silverspawn]

I got your reference to the earlier clue. Helicopter-decapitation was super gruesome!

Helicopter was the 3rd casino word. Bit of a stretch, but I figured bigwigs probably helicopter to casinos sometimes. I think silver must have been wanting to challenge that, but did it too early. He needed to prechallenge or wait for the next turn to happen, right?

Nah, I honestly mostly wanted to do something to beget more activity, and didn't worry too much about whether it was good play. But I didn't misunderstand which thing the challenge targeted.

[silverspawn]

Would consider that bad sportsmanship in general, but I figured for the first game it's fine.

[infangthief]

And you get the prize for having the most different kinds of things contributing to your score.

[infangthief]

What do people think about having no defined turn order like this, or having a fixed turn order? Fixed turn order would be a lot simpler and normal. Is that better?

[EFHW]

What do people think about having no defined turn order like this, or having a fixed turn order? Fixed turn order would be a lot simpler and normal. Is that better?

I like this way. Leaves some flexibility if someone can't get back in a timely manner to take their turn. 

[Swowl]

Play again?

/in

[scolapasta]

I thought it was fun, though I'm not sure about the scoring / competitive aspect of it. Though not sure what I would suggest tweaking either. 

I would play again.

[infangthief]

Doing it as a co-operative thing might be fun also, with no challenges, but comparing notes at the end to see how much everyone agreed.

But for now, I've got some ideas to tweak the scoring to hopefully make it a bit better and simpler.

[scolapasta]

Oh and I'm glad no one challenged my turn 6. I had TEAR selected, but then my additional two for Watery were Blizzard and Tear! D'oh!

[EFHW]

Oh and I'm glad no one challenged my turn 6. I had TEAR selected, but then my additional two for Watery were Blizzard and Tear! D'oh!

I almost did that a couple times, too. I thought I had done it for casino, but then I remembered helicopter.

[EFHW]

fang, did you make this up yourself? I like it a lot. You really get to work out many more potential combinations and you're trying to understand everyone's selections, not just your partner's. I think you might need to keep the challenges to keep people honest. Without them, I could just refer to one word and then the next person would select that one because there is no obvious other one, and no one will know there was no word to reject.

[infangthief]

fang, did you make this up yourself? I like it a lot. You really get to work out many more potential combinations and you're trying to understand everyone's selections, not just your partner's. I think you might need to keep the challenges to keep people honest. Without them, I could just refer to one word and then the next person would select that one because there is no obvious other one, and no one will know there was no word to reject.

Yes, made up. Had ideas for a few things along these lines, but this is the one that has come together most pleasingly.

The "without challenges" suggestion would be for a co-operative one. The team's score at the end would be worked out when everyone reveals what they were thinking, including rejected words. Think of it as the mod challenging every single clue at the end of the game.

[infangthief]

Ok, here's my updated scoring table (differences in bold):

Taking your first turn:	+10 points
Taking any other turn:	+1 point
Taking a turn that has been pre-challenged:	+1 extra point
Challenging a clue:	+2 points if successful (i.e. any other player loses points), -1 point otherwise
If your clue is challenged:	+2 points if you successfully identify the Selected and Rejected words, -2 points otherwise
If the clue after yours is challenged:	+2 points if you successfully identify the Selected and Rejected words, -2 points otherwise
If the clue before your Guess is challenged and the clue-giver gains points:	+0 points if your Guess matches the Selected word, -2 points otherwise

Points for making a challenge have changed from +1/-1 to +2/-1. This is to encourage challenges, because if no-one ever challenges then the winner is just the player who takes most turns.
Points for guesses have changed from +1/-1 to +0/-2. I think the guess is probably the easiest part of each turn, so I don't want to reward it so much! This change should probably also encourage challenges.

[infangthief]

Minor rules change/clarification:

• If the previous clue was challenged and results have been published, then your Guess must be the word that was selected by the most recent player (as revealed in the challenge results).

This allows a couple of simplifications in the rules, and just kind of makes sense anyway.

[infangthief]

Oh and I'm glad no one challenged my turn 6. I had TEAR selected, but then my additional two for Watery were Blizzard and Tear! D'oh!

Yes - I was wondering what your other watery word was. I'd have guessed Makeup if I had to, because it is kind of liquid at least? But was Makeup the word you were rejecting from EFHW's Eye clue? Anyway, glad no-one challenged!

I think the weak point in this game is that if someone gives a poor clue, intentionally or otherwise, then no-one wants to go next. The pre-challenge mechanism is designed to improve that situation, but I don't know if it does enough. Hopefully some more plays will help identify if this is a real problem.

[infangthief]

Anyway, thanks everyone for trying it out!

Shall we go for another? EFHW, Swowl, scolapasta, me, and I think we need at least one more. Silverspawn? Galzria? Anyone else?

[infangthief]

Oh, another thing I wanted to ask, how did it feel for the last couple of turns?

Swowl, what thinking went into your clue for turn 15?
EFHW, scolapasta, did turns 13 / 14 seem much easier than earlier turns?

[silverspawn]

I'd sit the next one out. I think Codename Select is a great and clever design, but I seem to specifically like regular codenames for the parts that are no longer there, ie the team-vs-team and deal-with-a-fixed-set-of-words-over-multiple-turns aspect

[EFHW]

Oh, another thing I wanted to ask, how did it feel for the last couple of turns?

Swowl, what thinking went into your clue for turn 15?
EFHW, scolapasta, did turns 13 / 14 seem much easier than earlier turns?

It was harder because I had fewer words to choose from for the clue. I was lucky to find film, I think. But it was fine. Turn 15 should probably just be a guess, so you don't have to give a useless clue.

[EFHW]

What do people think about having no defined turn order like this, or having a fixed turn order? Fixed turn order would be a lot simpler and normal. Is that better?

I like this way. Leaves some flexibility if someone can't get back in a timely manner to take their turn.

Turn taking is more fair, though. So either way.

[infangthief]

What do people think about having no defined turn order like this, or having a fixed turn order? Fixed turn order would be a lot simpler and normal. Is that better?

I like this way. Leaves some flexibility if someone can't get back in a timely manner to take their turn.

Turn taking is more fair, though. So either way.

Let's keep it without a defined turn order for now. Wacky rather than fair.

I think it would be better to allow the final turn to be challenged, so maybe the game could end 24 hours after turn 15, instead of immediately. Give people a chance to decide what they want to risk in order to improve their final position.

The clue on the final turn really shouldn't be a clue for 3 (there are only 3 words left, so no way to indicate which one you're selecting!) But you might want to target either 1 or 2 words. So I'm thinking of saying we shouldn't give numbers for any of the clues. It's just understood that the first clue is for 2 words, the last is for 1 or 2, and the rest are for 3.

[Swowl]

Oh, another thing I wanted to ask, how did it feel for the last couple of turns?

Swowl, what thinking went into your clue for turn 15?
EFHW, scolapasta, did turns 13 / 14 seem much easier than earlier turns?

11 or whatever my first one was was harder than 15 - just cuz i was fairly certain that was the end of the game once I posted it - so I did not care a great deal what it was.

[Swowl]

do we wanna run this again?
I can mod it if fang wants to play one

[infangthief]

do we wanna run this again?
I can mod it if fang wants to play one

I think it shouldn't need a mod (so long as people are happy with my objectivity in clarifying stuff if we come across any half-baked rules).

But it'll work better if we can get a 5th player. Poke Galzria?

[Swowl]

threw a shoe at him.

[Galzria]

In

[Swowl]

right in the face.

[Galzria]

Ow

[infangthief]

Coolio. Let's go with the following rules different from last time:

• Points for making a challenge are +2/-1 (instead of +1/-1).
• Points for guesses (if the previous clue gets challenged) are +0/-2 (instead of +1/-1).
• If the previous clue was challenged and results have been published, then your Guess must be the word that was selected by the most recent player (as revealed in the challenge results).
• Game ends 24 hours after turn 15 (instead of immediately); thus clue 15 can be challenged just like any other clue.
• Don't give numbers with your clues; it is understood that the first clue targets 2 words, clue 15 targets either 1 or 2 words (unspecified), and the rest of the clues target 3 words.

Is everyone ok with that? We'll get started anyway, shout if you see a problem.

(I haven't updated the rules/scoring in post #1 - I think some things could do with a bit of a rewrite anyway. If we want to keep going after this game I'll make a new thread with the revised ruleset.)

[infangthief]

EFHW, Swowl, scolapasta, Galzria, infangthief, and anyone else who wants to join along the way.

Here's the grid:

TEMPLE	OLYMPUS	PUMPKIN	RICE
KICK	ASH	BUBBLE	BOWL
SUGAR	JEWELER	WHALE	MILL
BLACKSMITH	POINT	BENCH	UNIVERSITY

[scolapasta]

Turn 1:
ZEUS

[infangthief]

Turn 2:
Clue: Building

[Swowl]

Guess: TEMPLE
Clue: APPRENTICESHIP

[scolapasta]

Turn 4:
Guess: UNIVERSITY
Clue: DOMINION

[Galzria]

Turn 5:
Guess: Blacksmith
Clue: Flour

[Swowl]

Guess: MILL
Clue: GRAINS

[Swowl]

TEMPLE	OLYMPUS	PUMPKIN	RICE
KICK	ASH	BUBBLE	BOWL
SUGAR	JEWELER	WHALE	MILL
BLACKSMITH	POINT	BENCH	UNIVERSITY

*not sure if I am supposed to include Mill yet*

[Swowl]

Turn 1:
ZEUS

Turn 2:
Clue: Building

Turn 3:
Guess: TEMPLE
Clue: APPRENTICESHIP

Turn 4:
Guess: UNIVERSITY
Clue: DOMINION

Turn 5:
Guess: Blacksmith
Clue: Flour

Turn 6:
Guess: MILL
Clue: GRAINS

[infangthief]

I'm going to challenge clue 6 (Grains).
Swowl and Galzria, please PM me the words which Swowl was selecting and rejecting with that clue.

[infangthief]

Note that with the updated rules, if someone takes turn 7 before I publish the challenge results, then that player will get either +0 or -2 for their guess.
Don't let that stop you, but I thought I should make sure everyone was aware of that rule change at this point!

[infangthief]

Challenge results:
Galzria and Swowl both say Rice was selected and Bowl was rejected.
So, +2 points each and -1 for me.

Next player has to guess Rice. (That part was obvious - I just thought Bowl was too unlikely!)

Scores so far:
Swowl 13
Galzria 12
scolapasta 11
infangthief 9

Next turn (7) has to be scolapasta, EFHW or someone new.

[Swowl]

sweet.

just clarifying - must be rice because that was the accepted word right? not just because it was too obvious?

[infangthief]

sweet.

just clarifying - must be rice because that was the accepted word right? not just because it was too obvious?

Yes, the word which the player who did the selecting clue (you in this case) said was the selected word.

And re your earlier question, MILL would turn orange on the grid as soon as you guessed it on turn 6. (Whether or not anyone else thought that was the right word to guess.)

[EFHW]

Turn 7
Guess: Rice
Clue: Edible: 3

[infangthief]

Turn 8:
Guess: Sugar
Clue: Blow

[Swowl]

TEMPLE	OLYMPUS	PUMPKIN	RICE
KICK	ASH	BUBBLE	BOWL
SUGAR	JEWELER	WHALE	MILL
BLACKSMITH	POINT	BENCH	UNIVERSITY

[Swowl]

Turn 9:

Guess: Bubble
Clue: Sightseer

[EFHW]

Challenge turn 9

[jotheonah]

What do people think about having no defined turn order like this, or having a fixed turn order? Fixed turn order would be a lot simpler and normal. Is that better?

I like this way. Leaves some flexibility if someone can't get back in a timely manner to take their turn.

Turn taking is more fair, though. So either way.

Let's keep it without a defined turn order for now. Wacky rather than fair.

I think it would be better to allow the final turn to be challenged, so maybe the game could end 24 hours after turn 15, instead of immediately. Give people a chance to decide what they want to risk in order to improve their final position.

The clue on the final turn really shouldn't be a clue for 3 (there are only 3 words left, so no way to indicate which one you're selecting!) But you might want to target either 1 or 2 words. So I'm thinking of saying we shouldn't give numbers for any of the clues. It's just understood that the first clue is for 2 words, the last is for 1 or 2, and the rest are for 3.

What if the final guess were automatically pre-challenged by no one in particular?

[jotheonah]

I read the whole thread and I think I understand the rules, but I have no idea how to jump in. Do I need to grab a pen and paper and do the whole game so far in my head, or would I have all the info I need from the last two clues?

[infangthief]

What do people think about having no defined turn order like this, or having a fixed turn order? Fixed turn order would be a lot simpler and normal. Is that better?

I like this way. Leaves some flexibility if someone can't get back in a timely manner to take their turn.

Turn taking is more fair, though. So either way.

Let's keep it without a defined turn order for now. Wacky rather than fair.

I think it would be better to allow the final turn to be challenged, so maybe the game could end 24 hours after turn 15, instead of immediately. Give people a chance to decide what they want to risk in order to improve their final position.

The clue on the final turn really shouldn't be a clue for 3 (there are only 3 words left, so no way to indicate which one you're selecting!) But you might want to target either 1 or 2 words. So I'm thinking of saying we shouldn't give numbers for any of the clues. It's just understood that the first clue is for 2 words, the last is for 1 or 2, and the rest are for 3.

What if the final guess were automatically pre-challenged by no one in particular?

There is no way to challenge the words that are proposed on turn 15. When you challenge a clue, you are challenging the select/reject aspect of that clue. So if clue 15 is challenged (or pre-challenged), we're just asking which words were proposed by clue 14 and selected/rejected by the clue 15.

When someone gives clue 15, there are only 3 words remaining, 2 of which were proposed by clue 14.
So clue 15 could be for just 1 word (the selected one).
Or clue 15 could be for 2 words (the selected one and another, implying that the unclued word is rejected).
It is up to whoever is giving clue 15 to decide which they want to do, but they can't tell everyone which one they are doing; turn 15 is already easy enough!
Hence just a clue, and no number.

[infangthief]

I read the whole thread and I think I understand the rules, but I have no idea how to jump in. Do I need to grab a pen and paper and do the whole game so far in my head, or would I have all the info I need from the last two clues?

Thanks joth!! I am happy.

At this moment you would probably be wise to wait until EFHW posts her challenge results, before taking a turn.

For taking a turn, I think the primary thing to look at is the last two clues. I think the impact of previous clues is non-zero, but normally small enough to ignore. But what do I know, I am losing!
If you want to challenge an earlier clue then you would of course need to figure out what everyone was thinking, ever.

[infangthief]

After turn 9:

TEMPLE	OLYMPUS	PUMPKIN	RICE
KICK	ASH	BUBBLE	BOWL
SUGAR	JEWELER	WHALE	MILL
BLACKSMITH	POINT	BENCH	UNIVERSITY

Turn 1:
ZEUS

Turn 2:
Clue: Building

Turn 3:
Guess: TEMPLE
Clue: APPRENTICESHIP

Turn 4:
Guess: UNIVERSITY
Clue: DOMINION

Turn 5:
Guess: Blacksmith
Clue: Flour

Turn 6:
Guess: MILL
Clue: GRAINS

Turn 6 was challenged unsuccessfully by infangthief

Turn 7
Guess: Rice
Clue: Edible

Turn 8:
Guess: Sugar
Clue: Blow

Turn 9:
Guess: Bubble
Clue: Sightseer

Turn 9 was challenged by EFHW (results pending)

Scores (pending results of turn 9 challenge):
Swowl: 14
Galzria: 12
scolapasta: 11
EFHW: 10
infangthief: 10

[Swowl]

Challenge turn 9

So I just see in what I accepted and rejected from fangs clue, correct?

[infangthief]

Challenge turn 9

So I just see in what I accepted and rejected from fangs clue, correct?

Yes, send EFHW a PM with that info.

[Swowl]

k done.

[EFHW]

Very different responses.

Fang
Selected: Jeweler
Rejected: Kick

Swowl
Accepted: Whale
Rejected: Bowl

[Swowl]

I actually can totally see how fang clued that though. MB. I was fenced about kick, but was always doing bowl over jeweler, so we had no hope

[infangthief]

So... next player has to guess Whale.

Scores:
Swowl 12
Galzria 12
EFHW 12
scolapasta 11
infangthief 8

[jotheonah]

I hope I’m doing this right.

Guess: Whale
Clue: Flame

[infangthief]

Cool. That was turn 10.
Turn 11 can be taken by anyone other than joth or Swowl.

[EFHW]

Turn 11
Guess: point
Clue: Sports

[infangthief]

Challenge clue 10 (flame)
Joth and Swowl please PM me which words were selected/rejected by Joth.

[jotheonah]

Ok, so I send one word that I was intending to clue with flame that was not clued the turn before and one word that I believe was clued the turn before that I was trying not to clue with flame?

[infangthief]

Ok, so I send one word that I was intending to clue with flame that was not clued the turn before and one word that I believe was clued the turn before that I was trying not to clue with flame?

Not quite.
Swowl was proposing 2 new words with his clue of Sightseer. (New as in not matching any of the Guesses up to and including turn 10.)
Those are the 2 words that you need to send.
Your clue (Flame) should be targetting one of those words and not the other. You need to say what both words are and which one of those is targetted by your clue.

Swowl is also doing the same, and you are hoping that both of you say the same two words, the same way round.

You clue should also be targetting 2 new words, but you don't say what those are.

[jotheonah]

But how does the guess fit in? It should be one of the words he was proposing, right?

[infangthief]

But how does the guess fit in? It should be one of the words he was proposing, right?

Your guess on turn 10, or EFHW's guess on turn 11?

[jotheonah]

Either. Both. Ugh, I am not doing well understanding this game.

[infangthief]

Either. Both. Ugh, I am not doing well understanding this game.

Sorry. It is complicated.
This is actually the first time anyone has challenged a clue from an earlier turn (not the most recent turn), so no-one has been through this yet.
I will try explaining...

[infangthief]

Swowl's clue on turn 9 (Sightseer) was for Whale and 2 new words. (Normally we wouldn't really know that it was Whale, but this time it is known because of the previous challenge.)
You guessed Whale. Whale is now done with.

Now there are Swowl's 2 new words. Hopefully you have an idea what they are. You have selected one of them and rejected the other. Your clue (Flame) hopefully targets one and not the other (along with targetting 2 new words that we will ignore for now).

The simple thing is to stop thinking at that point and send me the words you selected and rejected.

Now the unchartered territory:
EFHW has now taken turn 11, guessing Point. So EFHW thinks that is the word that you selected. That may or may not be what you intended. It is up to you whether you let EFHW's guess influence you. Be aware that it may be influencing Swowl also.

Your aim should be to send a PM which matches Swowl's PM.

I hope I have explained this objectively. EFHW or anyone do add something if it makes it clearer!

[infangthief]

Such a simple game.

Maybe I had better go and hide.

[infangthief]

After turn 11:

TEMPLE	OLYMPUS	PUMPKIN	RICE
KICK	ASH	BUBBLE	BOWL
SUGAR	JEWELER	WHALE	MILL
BLACKSMITH	POINT	BENCH	UNIVERSITY

Orange for all words guessed up to and including turn 11.
Note that at the time of clue 10, "Point" was not orange; thus "Point" may be used when responding to the clue 10 challenge.

Turn 1:
ZEUS

Turn 2:
Clue: Building

Turn 3:
Guess: TEMPLE
Clue: APPRENTICESHIP

Turn 4:
Guess: UNIVERSITY
Clue: DOMINION

Turn 5:
Guess: Blacksmith
Clue: Flour

Turn 6:
Guess: MILL
Clue: GRAINS

Clue 6 was challenged unsuccessfully by infangthief

Turn 7
Guess: Rice
Clue: Edible

Turn 8:
Guess: Sugar
Clue: Blow

Turn 9:
Guess: Bubble
Clue: Sightseer

Clue 9 was challenged successfully by EFHW

Turn 10:
Guess: Whale
Clue: Flame

Clue 10 was challenged by infangthief, results pending.

Turn 11
Guess: point
Clue: Sports

Scores (pending results of turn 10 challenge):
EFHW: 13 (2 turns, 1 successful challenge; 10+1+2)
Swowl: 12 (3 turns, survived 1 challenge, failed 1 challenge; 10+1+1+2-2)
Galzria: 12 (1 turn, survived 1 challenge; 10+2)
scolapasta: 11 (2 turns; 10+1)
jotheonah: 10 (1 turn; 10)
infangthief: 8 (2 turns, failed 1 challenge, 1 unsuccessful challenge; 10+1-2-1)

[jotheonah]

That was an amazingly useful and cogent explanation.

[EFHW]

I'll just point out that you don't have to give the words you thought at the time. You can change which words you select/reject if you want, since the new information from my guess is available.

[Swowl]

turn 10 challenge info sent to fang.

[infangthief]

Turn 10 challenge results:

joth and Swowl both say:
Selected: Point
Rejected: Bench

They get +2 each, EFHW gets +0 for correct guess, I get -1 for unsuccessful challenge.

Scores now
Swowl: 14 (3 turns, survived 2 challenges, failed 1 challenge; 10+1+1+2+2-2)
EFHW: 13 (2 turns, 1 successful challenge; 10+1+2)
Galzria: 12 (1 turn, survived 1 challenge; 10+2)
jotheonah: 12 (1 turn, survived 1 challenge; 10+2)
scolapasta: 11 (2 turns; 10+1)
infangthief: 7 (2 turns, failed 1 challenge, 2 unsuccessful challenges; 10+1-2-1-1)

Turn 12 can be taken by anyone except EFHW or joth.

[jotheonah]

hi five Swowl!

[Galzria]

Turn 12:
Guess: Olympus
Clue: Craft

[infangthief]

Just a reminder that the game ends 24 hours after turn 15, rather than immediately. Turn 15 can be challenged like any other turn.

[Swowl]

hi five Swowl!

woot woot

[Swowl]

Turn 13:

Guess: Jeweler
Clue: Smash

[Swowl]

Turn 13:

Guess: Jeweler
Clue: Smash

[jotheonah]

Turn 14:

Guess: Pumpkin
Clue: Legs

[jotheonah]

And what the hell, challenge Turn 12.

[infangthief]

After turn 14:

TEMPLE	OLYMPUS	PUMPKIN	RICE
KICK	ASH	BUBBLE	BOWL
SUGAR	JEWELER	WHALE	MILL
BLACKSMITH	POINT	BENCH	UNIVERSITY

Turn 1:
ZEUS

Turn 2:
Clue: Building

Turn 3:
Guess: TEMPLE
Clue: APPRENTICESHIP

Turn 4:
Guess: UNIVERSITY
Clue: DOMINION

Turn 5:
Guess: Blacksmith
Clue: Flour

Turn 6:
Guess: MILL
Clue: GRAINS

Clue 6 was challenged unsuccessfully by infangthief

Turn 7
Guess: Rice
Clue: Edible

Turn 8:
Guess: Sugar
Clue: Blow

Turn 9:
Guess: Bubble
Clue: Sightseer

Clue 9 was challenged successfully by EFHW

Turn 10:
Guess: Whale
Clue: Flame

Clue 10 was challenged unsuccessfully by infangthief.

Turn 11
Guess: point
Clue: Sports

Turn 12:
Guess: Olympus
Clue: Craft

Clue 12 was challenged by jotheonah, results pending.

Turn 13:
Guess: Jeweler
Clue: Smash

Turn 14:
Guess: Pumpkin
Clue: Legs

Scores (pending results of clue 12 challenge):
Swowl: 15 (4 turns, survived 2 challenges, failed 1 challenge; 10+1+1+1+2+2-2)
EFHW: 13 (2 turns, 1 successful challenge; 10+1+2)
Galzria: 13 (2 turns, survived 1 challenge; 10+1+2)
jotheonah: 13 (2 turns, survived 1 challenge; 10+1+2)
scolapasta: 11 (2 turns; 10+1)
infangthief: 7 (2 turns, failed 1 challenge, 2 unsuccessful challenges; 10+1-2-1-1)

[infangthief]

Turn 15:
Guess: Kick
Clue: Soot

[scolapasta]

Challenge, because, why not?

[infangthief]

Challenge, because, why not?

Challenging turn 15?

[Swowl]

wait so Joth challenging Galz Turn 12 clue, means I send Joth a pm with ... what I accepted/rejected after I guessed Jeweler... right?

[infangthief]

wait so Joth challenging Galz Turn 12 clue, means I send Joth a pm with ... what I accepted/rejected after I guessed Jeweler... right?

No. Joth challenging Galzria's clue 12 means Galzria and EFHW (turn 11) need to PM joth with stuff.

[scolapasta]

Challenge, because, why not?

Challenging turn 15?

Oh,Can I challenge past turns?

[jotheonah]

jotheonah: 11 (2 turns; 10+1)

I believe I get at least one more point for surviving a challenge?

[Galzria]

What was the clue I was referring to again? Sports? I don't remember!

This game goes slowly, than extremely quickly, than slowly again!

[infangthief]

Challenge, because, why not?

Challenging turn 15?

Oh,Can I challenge past turns?

Yes, you can challenge any clue except clue 1. And you can't challenge a clue that has already been challenged.

[infangthief]

jotheonah: 11 (2 turns; 10+1)

I believe I get at least one more point for surviving a challenge?

Yes, 2 more, I thought I was missing something! Edited.

[infangthief]

What was the clue I was referring to again? Sports? I don't remember!

This game goes slowly, than extremely quickly, than slowly again!

This bit:

Turn 11
Guess: point
Clue: Sports

Turn 12:
Guess: Olympus
Clue: Craft

Clue 12 was challenged by jotheonah, results pending.

The challenge responses can include any words that had not been guessed up to the point at which you gave the clue.

[jotheonah]

still waiting for EFHW's PM

[infangthief]

Just over 2 hours until end of game - no more challenges after 5:23pm forum time today. Exciting isn't it.

Challenge responses can still be sent after that time.

scolapasta, if you're wanting to challenge something please say which clue number.

[EFHW]

Sorry! Didn't realize you were waiting for me. Let me reconstruct my thinking and I'll pm joth.

[scolapasta]

OK, sure, how about:

Challenge: turn 11

[jotheonah]

We have a problem.

I'm pretty sure EFHW accidentally sent me her answers for a challenge to Turn 11, rather than a challenge to Turn 12. Which is an issue because now that 11 has been challenged, EFHW needs to submit those answers and I'm the one who needs to match them. No real way to maintain integrity there.

[jotheonah]

Unless I'm wrong about any part of that, I swear I'm having a terrible time keeping all this straight.

[scolapasta]

If that's the case, I can rescind that challenge. I'm only doing it because I was absent for a while, and that's the only chance to move up in score right now.

So if challenging 11 breaks thing, I can switch to challenge 13, I guess.

[jotheonah]

Challenge of Turn 12 results:

Galzria and EFHW both said

Rejected: Kick
Accepted: Bowl

Challenge is passed.

[Galzria]

Is there a challenge in progress right now, or are we at final scores?

[jotheonah]

I guess we’re at final scores!

[scolapasta]

What about my challenge? I haven't seen any messages.

[Swowl]

What about my challenge? I haven't seen any messages.

wait which one did you challenge?

[scolapasta]

OK, sure, how about:

Challenge: turn 11

We have a problem.

I'm pretty sure EFHW accidentally sent me her answers for a challenge to Turn 11, rather than a challenge to Turn 12. Which is an issue because now that 11 has been challenged, EFHW needs to submit those answers and I'm the one who needs to match them. No real way to maintain integrity there.

If that's the case, I can rescind that challenge. I'm only doing it because I was absent for a while, and that's the only chance to move up in score right now.

So if challenging 11 breaks thing, I can switch to challenge 13, I guess.

[jotheonah]

Maybe type challenge 13 in bold?

[Swowl]

Maybe type challenge 13 in bold?

So is challenging 13 me and Galz or me and Joth?

[scolapasta]

Maybe type challenge 13 in bold?

I think it's you and galz.

Sorry about no bold. The original challenge was in bold, but was offering to change here if 11 in fact did not work. (Never seemed fully confirmed that the wrong thing had gotten sent)

So is challenging 13 me and Galz or me and Joth?

[infangthief]

I've not been on much, but looks like things are going ok.

Challenge of Turn 12 results:

Galzria and EFHW both said

Rejected: Kick
Accepted: Bowl

Challenge is passed.

Ok, so Galzria and EFHW each gain 2 points. But Swowl loses 2 because he guessed Jeweler, not Bowl, on turn 13. And joth gains 2 points because of that.

Scolapasta is challenging clue 13, so Swowl and Galzria need to PM scolapasta with the words which Galzria proposed and Swowl selected/rejected.

Chaos I'll try and piece it all together tomorrow.

[infangthief]

(This post edited after final challenge results were published in #193)

End of game:

TEMPLE	OLYMPUS	PUMPKIN	RICE
KICK	ASH	BUBBLE	BOWL
SUGAR	JEWELER	WHALE	MILL
BLACKSMITH	POINT	BENCH	UNIVERSITY

Turn 1:
ZEUS

Turn 2:
Clue: Building

Turn 3:
Guess: TEMPLE
Clue: APPRENTICESHIP

Turn 4:
Guess: UNIVERSITY
Clue: DOMINION

Turn 5:
Guess: Blacksmith
Clue: Flour

Turn 6:
Guess: MILL
Clue: GRAINS

Clue 6 was challenged unsuccessfully by infangthief

Turn 7
Guess: Rice
Clue: Edible

Turn 8:
Guess: Sugar
Clue: Blow

Turn 9:
Guess: Bubble
Clue: Sightseer

Clue 9 was challenged successfully by EFHW

Turn 10:
Guess: Whale
Clue: Flame

Clue 10 was challenged unsuccessfully by infangthief.

Turn 11
Guess: point
Clue: Sports

Turn 12:
Guess: Olympus
Clue: Craft

Clue 12 was challenged successfully (guess 13 was wrong) by jotheonah.

Turn 13:
Guess: Jeweler
Clue: Smash

Clue 13 was challenged successfully (guess 14 was wrong) by scolapasta.

Turn 14:
Guess: Pumpkin
Clue: Legs

Turn 15:
Guess: Kick
Clue: Soot

Final scores:

Galzria: 17 (2 turns, survived 3 challenges; 10+1+2+2+2)
EFHW: 15 (2 turns, survived 1 challenge, 1 successful challenge; 10+1+2+2)
Swowl: 15 (4 turns, survived 3 challenges, failed 2 challenges; 10+1+1+1+2+2+2-2-2)
jotheonah: 13 (2 turns, survived 1 challenge, failed 1 challenge, 1 successful challenge; 10+1+2-2+2)
scolapasta: 13 (2 turns, 1 successful challenge; 10+1+2)
infangthief: 8 (3 turns, failed 1 challenge, 2 unsuccessful challenges; 10+1+1-2-1-1)

[scolapasta]

Challenge results are in:

Swowl: Accept: Bowl Rejected: Bench
Galz: Rejected Bench, and picked Bowl

So they match. Though interestingly, Galz says that was not the initial intention and that swowl's guess was actually wrong.

"I mean, he guessed Jeweler, which was supposed to be Bowl. So he’s wrong there. But I can’t tell you that I meant Bowl (I mean, yes, I can, and I have) - but that doesn’t matter because Swowl got it wrong.

I guess I can guess at what Swowl was going for? Is that what I’ll supposed to do here? It’s weird to “guess Forward, not backward”, especially knowing he’s wrong.


I would say he guessed Jeweler, Rejected Bench, and picked Bowl… even though that’s not what I intended."


This aspect of challenges seems a little weird.

[infangthief]

Swowl's guess of JEWELER is only 'wrong' to the extent that Galzria managed to convey to EFHW that he selected some other word using his clue 12.

So that came to light via the challenge of clue 12: EFHW and Galzria both said that Galzria had selected BOWL; that is what makes Swowl's guess wrong, and Swowl lost 2 points due to the challenge of clue 12.

As far as the challenge of clue 13 is concerned, what Swowl guessed on turn 13 does not come into it.
Swowl successfully conveyed to Galzria that he selected BOWL and rejected BENCH (even though that wasn't what Galzria was expecting when Galzria gave his clue).
So for this challenge Swowl and Galzria gain 2 points each, and BOWL is the officially selected word.
Now this means that jotheonah's guess of PUMPKIN is wrong, and jotheonah loses 2 points.
Scolapasta gains 2 points for a successful challenge (because at least one other player lost points).

[infangthief]

Final scores:

Galzria: 17 (2 turns, survived 3 challenges; 10+1+2+2+2)
EFHW: 15 (2 turns, survived 1 challenge, 1 successful challenge; 10+1+2+2)
Swowl: 15 (4 turns, survived 3 challenges, failed 2 challenges; 10+1+1+1+2+2+2-2-2)
jotheonah: 13 (2 turns, survived 1 challenge, failed 1 challenge, 1 successful challenge; 10+1+2-2+2)
scolapasta: 13 (2 turns, 1 successful challenge; 10+1+2)
infangthief: 8 (3 turns, failed 1 challenge, 2 unsuccessful challenges; 10+1+1-2-1-1)

[infangthief]

A similar thing happened with the turn 9 challenge.

My clue 8 ("Blow") was intended to select WHALE, reject PUMPKIN (I thought those were EFHW's two "Edible" words) and propose BUBBLE and KICK.
Then on turn 9, Swowl guessed BUBBLE, so I had to rethink and try to see things from Swowl's perspective.

To be honest I was totally at sea with the "Sightseer" clue. Like I was sure "Sightseer" + "Flame" had to be OLYMPUS, but EFHW guessed POINT which is why I challenged the "Flame" clue. Maybe I need to go and do more sightseeing.

[scolapasta]

Final scores:

Galzria: 17 (2 turns, survived 3 challenges; 10+1+2+2+2)
EFHW: 15 (2 turns, survived 1 challenge, 1 successful challenge; 10+1+2+2)
Swowl: 15 (4 turns, survived 3 challenges, failed 2 challenges; 10+1+1+1+2+2+2-2-2)
jotheonah: 13 (2 turns, survived 1 challenge, failed 1 challenge, 1 successful challenge; 10+1+2-2+2)
scolapasta: 13 (2 turns, 1 successful challenge; 10+1+2)
infangthief: 8 (3 turns, failed 1 challenge, 2 unsuccessful challenges; 10+1+1-2-1-1)

My challenge failed.

[Swowl]

GAlz still takes the cup I believe.

I think the point pasta made is good, however, I see no way of fixing it without making the game turn based in some fashion.

[infangthief]

Scola's challenge of clue 13 succeeded because it revealed that joth's guess on turn 14 was wrong.

In the same way, joth's challenge of clue 12 succeeded because it revealed that Swowl's guess on turn 13 was wrong.

• If you think someone has made a wrong Guess on their turn, then the way to call it out is to challenge the clue from the previous turn.

When you make a challenge, you are challenging two things:

• Did the Proposer and Selecter/Rejecter give good enough clues to reach a common understanding?
• Did the Guesser guess the right word?

First we look at (1). The "common understanding" is tested by getting both players to state which words they think were selected and rejected. i.e. were their clues good enough for each other? If so, they gain points, if not they lose points.
If their answers do not match, then we conclude that their clues were not good enough. In this case we don't bother with (2); there was no "right" word, so the Guesser is off the hook.
If their answers do match, then we conclude that their clues were indeed good enough. In this case we move on to (2); the Guesser should have been able to identify the right word, and loses points if they didn't.

If the challenge is for the most recent clue, then (2) doesn't come into it at all; it is just a challenge for (1).
But, if the next turn has already been taken, it is important that (2) is included. Otherwise there is nothing to stop the Guess just being some unrelated grid-word, and the game can degenerate into just targetting 1 word with each clue.

[EFHW]

A similar thing happened with the turn 9 challenge.

My clue 8 ("Blow") was intended to select WHALE, reject PUMPKIN (I thought those were EFHW's two "Edible" words) and propose BUBBLE and KICK.
Then on turn 9, Swowl guessed BUBBLE, so I had to rethink and try to see things from Swowl's perspective.

To be honest I was totally at sea with the "Sightseer" clue. Like I was sure "Sightseer" + "Flame" had to be OLYMPUS, but EFHW guessed POINT which is why I challenged the "Flame" clue. Maybe I need to go and do more sightseeing.

You k now how there are points along a scenic route where you look at the vista?

[EFHW]

A similar thing happened with the turn 9 challenge.

My clue 8 ("Blow") was intended to select WHALE, reject PUMPKIN (I thought those were EFHW's two "Edible" words) and propose BUBBLE and KICK.
Then on turn 9, Swowl guessed BUBBLE, so I had to rethink and try to see things from Swowl's perspective.

To be honest I was totally at sea with the "Sightseer" clue. Like I was sure "Sightseer" + "Flame" had to be OLYMPUS, but EFHW guessed POINT which is why I challenged the "Flame" clue. Maybe I need to go and do more sightseeing.

You k now how there are points along a scenic route where you look at the vista?

Point was a stretch for flame, but I thought of flaming point, like boiling or freezing. Was point hinted at by flame?

[jotheonah]

Flame was meant to be for Ash and Olympus, originally. But I changed my "intent" to match EFHW's guess.

[EFHW]

I also thought bench for sightseer.

I saw ash and Olympus, but what was the third word?

[jotheonah]

Did anyone else get screwed up by thinking about glass blowers? I think I was connecting blow with jeweler and flame and then once I got thinking about glass blowers I was still thinking about them and it made me connect jeweler with sightseer (because they're like a big tourist thing in Venice). It's like I forgot to clear my internal cache of word associations.

[jotheonah]

Probably Jeweler (see above)

[EFHW]

Here's what was behind my turns. Turn 7, edible selected sugar, rejected jeweler, and clued whale and pumpkin. Turn 11 sports selected Olympus, rejected ash, and clued bowl and kick.

[infangthief]

Here's what was behind my turns. Turn 7, edible selected sugar, rejected jeweler, and clued whale and pumpkin. Turn 11 sports selected Olympus, rejected ash, and clued bowl and kick.

Cool. I was right about Whale and Pumpkin then.
I thought the "grains" word you were rejecting was Bench (like the grain of the wood).

[jotheonah]

I think it would be less messy (but also slower) if we required a 24-hour challenge period after each clue and disallowed retroactive challenges.

The whole mind game where you have to decide whether to say what you really clued in a challenge or make it line up with the guess seems like really bad game design to me, especially when you consider what it looks like to max points. It gives the cluer the power (assuming they can coordinate with the other challengee) to screw over their guesser even if their guesser guessed completely right, simply because the guesser is ahead on points.

I think the spirit of the game, as well as simplicity, would be better served if someone simply posted their guess and clue and then there were 24 hours for challenges, in which someone could challenge the clue. Then after that time expired the clue would be assumed to be consistent and anyone could make a guess. Or something. Do you all hear what I mean?

[infangthief]

I think it would be less messy (but also slower) if we required a 24-hour challenge period after each clue and disallowed retroactive challenges.

The whole mind game where you have to decide whether to say what you really clued in a challenge or make it line up with the guess seems like really bad game design to me, especially when you consider what it looks like to max points. It gives the cluer the power (assuming they can coordinate with the other challengee) to screw over their guesser even if their guesser guessed completely right, simply because the guesser is ahead on points.

I think the spirit of the game, as well as simplicity, would be better served if someone simply posted their guess and clue and then there were 24 hours for challenges, in which someone could challenge the clue. Then after that time expired the clue would be assumed to be consistent and anyone could make a guess. Or something. Do you all hear what I mean?

Ok, yes, possibly.

But can the guesser be held to account at all then, or can they just guess any random grid-word they like?

It gives the cluer the power (assuming they can coordinate with the other challengee) to screw over their guesser even if their guesser guessed completely right, simply because the guesser is ahead on points.

Hmm, I suppose that is possible. I mean, I'm assuming there is no external coordination going on, so on the face of it how can they come up with some other word that they're going to agree on?
But I suppose it is possible that the standard "correct play" would be for challengees to swap their selected/rejected words over, and that would be bad.

[jotheonah]

Maybe people could choose to challenge either guesses or clues? And if you challenge a guess, the guess has to line up with the cluer's intent.

[jotheonah]

You could also just make an unenforceable good faith rule that people should express their original intent when responding to a challenge. You could even make it enforceable by requiring everyone to post their intentions, encrypted, when they post a clue and then provide the key in the event of a challenge. Then we're definitely sacrificing user friendliness though. Though the game isn't exactly approachable right now.

[infangthief]

Maybe people could choose to challenge either guesses or clues? And if you challenge a guess, the guess has to line up with the cluer's intent.

But then the cluer can just say that their intent was something different, if they want the guesser to lose points.
Or that their intent happens to match the guess, if they want the challenger to lose points.

[jotheonah]

Maybe people could choose to challenge either guesses or clues? And if you challenge a guess, the guess has to line up with the cluer's intent.

But then the cluer can just say that their intent was something different, if they want the guesser to lose points.
Or that their intent happens to match the guess, if they want the challenger to lose points.

True, that's worse.

[infangthief]

You could also just make an unenforceable good faith rule that people should express their original intent when responding to a challenge. You could even make it enforceable by requiring everyone to post their intentions, encrypted, when they post a clue and then provide the key in the event of a challenge. Then we're definitely sacrificing user friendliness though. Though the game isn't exactly approachable right now.

Yes. A good-faith rule might help. But still there's the problem of a clue just being (unintentionally) weak. If my clue isn't very good and someone guesses it "wrong" - is that the guessers fault or is it my fault?

[infangthief]

Maybe you could just have 24-hours for challenges, after which the player just announces what their selected word was. Would still need to be good-faith required I think.

Or even just have a mod who just challenges every clue and doesn't gain or lose points. You give a clue then you PM the mod with that your clue means. Everything is simple then.

[infangthief]

Turn 4:
Guess: UNIVERSITY
Clue: DOMINION

Turn 5:
Guess: Blacksmith
Clue: Flour

That "Dominion" clue was 2 weeks ahead of its time.

[infangthief]

So... as it stands this game seems too complicated. And also not very balanced - some turns are easy and some are hard.

Would you be up for trying a simpler co-operative version?

3 (or more) players, fixed turn order, no challenges, no scoring. Then at the end we post our interpretations and see how closely it matches up. Maybe we can come up with a team score based on the closeness of interpretations at the end.

That should exercise the main principle of the game, but without the complexity and competitiveness that comes from challenges.

[Swowl]

interesting...
so scoring would happen in sort of a non-chronological order and more based on pure correctness of interpretation.

I would be down to test run that to try to better the game.

[EFHW]

I'm in