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[LaLight]

Also, wait - the way I reacted to Jimmmmm makes him town? How does that make sense?

yeah, this

[faust]

What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.

you do long-term.

What are you implying here?

that a discussion of different playstyles and eventual consensus gonna help minimize these kinds of conversations in the future and maybe playing the game instead of "going down that rabbit hole"

I have little faith in reaching a consensus. Also, the fact that different people have different playstyles is a plus in my book, I wouldn't want to change that.

[LaLight]

What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.

you do long-term.

What are you implying here?

that a discussion of different playstyles and eventual consensus gonna help minimize these kinds of conversations in the future and maybe playing the game instead of "going down that rabbit hole"

I have little faith in reaching a consensus. Also, the fact that different people have different playstyles is a plus in my book, I wouldn't want to change that.

yeah, it's good but only when these playstyles don't clash cluttering the thread.

[faust]

Anyways, Jimmmmm, you do realise you implied that you want us to not exile you without providing reasons?

I don't like this. vote: faust

I think I overlooked this post in all the conundrum. What did you not like, LaLight?

[Jimmmmm]

Alright so which of your reads are you willing to discuss?

Currently? The ones I have discussed. I will entertain talking about reads on other people once they become relevant to the flow of the game.

So none of them. This is you refusing to to talk about your reads.

Alright let's try this. Put yourself in my position. I want to try to get a read on you, and not from punctuation in posts or meta from games I wasn't involved in. How do I do that? How would you get a read on someone based purely on who they have voted for? (And not just from the alignment or perceived alignment of the votees - "they're voting for Town so they must be scum" doesn't cut it.)

[MiX]

Alright so which of your reads are you willing to discuss?

Currently? The ones I have discussed. I will entertain talking about reads on other people once they become relevant to the flow of the game.

So none of them. This is you refusing to to talk about your reads.

Alright let's try this. Put yourself in my position. I want to try to get a read on you, and not from punctuation in posts or meta from games I wasn't involved in. How do I do that? How would you get a read on someone based purely on who they have voted for? (And not just from the alignment or perceived alignment of the votees - "they're voting for Town so they must be scum" doesn't cut it.)

Well, if they're voting scum, they're probably town.

[Jimmmmm]

Yeah that doesn't cut it either.

[faust]

Alright so which of your reads are you willing to discuss?

Currently? The ones I have discussed. I will entertain talking about reads on other people once they become relevant to the flow of the game.

So none of them. This is you refusing to to talk about your reads.

Alright let's try this. Put yourself in my position. I want to try to get a read on you, and not from punctuation in posts or meta from games I wasn't involved in. How do I do that? How would you get a read on someone based purely on who they have voted for? (And not just from the alignment or perceived alignment of the votees - "they're voting for Town so they must be scum" doesn't cut it.)

Again, I am not willing to engage in discussion about playstyles. How you get your reads is your business. I am putting enough content out there to be read.

[LaLight]

Anyways, Jimmmmm, you do realise you implied that you want us to not exile you without providing reasons?

I don't like this. vote: faust

I think I overlooked this post in all the conundrum. What did you not like, LaLight?

This actually looked like a sarcasm, which would make even more posts appear that distract people (which actually happened!)

[Jimmmmm]

Okay faust, what are the reasons we should believe you're Town?

[faust]

Okay faust, what are the reasons we should believe you're Town?

Well, I have done townie things. I think I am more contrarian when I am town, and thus often attract more votes as town than I do as scum, and I think you can see that in my play.

The three players I have voted for (joth, iguana, Jimmmmm) have all since ended up on the EFHW wagon, so unless you think that is completely town-driven, I have already voted for scum. If you do think that the EFHW wagon is completely town-driven, then it is probably beneficial to join that wagon rather than start a new one on me.

[faust]

Anyways, Jimmmmm, you do realise you implied that you want us to not exile you without providing reasons?

I don't like this. vote: faust

I think I overlooked this post in all the conundrum. What did you not like, LaLight?

This actually looked like a sarcasm, which would make even more posts appear that distract people (which actually happened!)

I was being sarcastic, but I also genuinely wanted Jimmmmm to explain why he is town, something that he by the way has refused to do so far.

[faust]

Oh also if I was scum I would be more accepting of MiX and his townread on me.

[Jimmmmm]

I was being sarcastic, but I also genuinely wanted Jimmmmm to explain why he is town, something that he by the way has refused to do so far.

If you have a case against me I'm happy to engage with it, but I'm not going to spend time defending myself against a non-case.

[mathdude]

Ok, I'm going to respond to one question directed at me, then give my 2 cents on the 2 pages of excessive banter while trying not to extend the discussion in a meaningless way... good luck, self!

Hi Everybody!

What meaningful scumtells do you infer from this post? Quacks like RVS to me.

TBH though, the interactions before and after this rang a little scummy to me. So my vote wasn't entirely without reason. Also, creating interaction, seeing who defends and who jumps on wagon is helpful too.

What interactions rang scummy? You say "before and after" this - are you quoting the post you didn't find scummy?

Specifically, the quoted post felt artificial. Then looking at the post he quoted, and the 2 or 3 that followed, it felt to me like Jimmmmm was trying to create interaction ... I don't know, it just didn't feel like genuine town posting to me.  (No, don't ask me what town posting feels like... it was just my gut feel.)

[EFHW]

What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.

you do long-term.

What are you implying here?

that a discussion of different playstyles and eventual consensus gonna help minimize these kinds of conversations in the future and maybe playing the game instead of "going down that rabbit hole"

This is a continuation of discussion from the Oz game. I am really happy to see faust's explanation of why he does naked votes.

[LaLight]

Oh also if I was scum I would be more accepting of MiX and his townread on me.

the fact that you know your meta makes all those things NAI

[LaLight]

Oh also if I was scum I would be more accepting of MiX and his townread on me.

the fact that you know your meta makes all those things NAI

and this is actually why I think all the "give me reasons you're town" questions are meaningless unless there's something like "I helped exile two scum already"

[mathdude]

You're basically saying "Let's not play the game so it makes it harder for scum to play the game". When everyone's a suspect, there's no way to force scum to give their opinions before Town, and trying to do so can only give scum a free pass to not contribute. What you're doing may serve you as an individual across multiple games, but it certainly doesn't serve the Town.

This is sort of my take on the whole faust opinion of providing naked votes.

If faust is town, it helps him get better reads as others reply, respond, react, and interact. If people get defensive, or ignore things, or jump on a wagon, or infer reasons or add reasons from their own confirmation bias, it can tell him things, since he knows what reasons he started things for.

But if faust is scum, it allows him to put "reads" on people without giving reasons, it lets him test where others want to start wagons, let's him look involved (shows up in vote counts) without actually saying much, and generally seem "town" (in his opinion) because he's following his meta.

He's got (and/or is building) a meta that lets him completely fly under the radar when he is scum because it doesn't require faking anything.

The problem with this whole thing is that it seems helpful to him, from his perspective, no matter his alignment. But it does nothing to make the rest of us believe he's town because it's just as easy for him to claim that he's doing the same thing he always does, whether town or scum. So the responses to his blind votes don't mean anything to us since we don't know why he initially posted it.

So overall, faust's strategy is good for him, bad for the rest of us. The biggest problem is that he could be genuinely trying to be helpful town, but just as easily could be scum easily hiding behind his D1 meta.

[Jimmmmm]

Oh also if I was scum I would be more accepting of MiX and his townread on me.

the fact that you know your meta makes all those things NAI

and this is actually why I think all the "give me reasons you're town" questions are meaningless unless there's something like "I helped exile two scum already"

This.

[mathdude]

Finally, reasons are often not much more than a confirmation-biased reread of someone you already gut-read as scum. If you type them out you only lean more into that confirmation bias. And you've created a position now that you will feel that you need to defend, which psychologically makes it even harder to remain open and fight the bias.

This is probably the only part of faust's arguments that I think is helpful. I believe I have fallen victim to this many times. When I start finding someone scummy, I often find it very hard to look at them objectively again. I just find more things that I think are scummy. And it gets worse if I start digging in and posting reasons for my scum read on them.

But saying that, I don't agree that posting a naked vote is any more helpful. Even if I don't post reasons, I still likely have reasons (sometimes just gut feel), and I'm still susceptible to the confirmation bias. Better to just be aware of the bias, and work to look around it (similar to how I almost always find MiX scummy D1, but that doesn't mean I tunnel him D1 every game... I keep a more open mind).

[MiX]

You're basically saying "Let's not play the game so it makes it harder for scum to play the game". When everyone's a suspect, there's no way to force scum to give their opinions before Town, and trying to do so can only give scum a free pass to not contribute. What you're doing may serve you as an individual across multiple games, but it certainly doesn't serve the Town.

This is sort of my take on the whole faust opinion of providing naked votes.

If faust is town, it helps him get better reads as others reply, respond, react, and interact. If people get defensive, or ignore things, or jump on a wagon, or infer reasons or add reasons from their own confirmation bias, it can tell him things, since he knows what reasons he started things for.

But if faust is scum, it allows him to put "reads" on people without giving reasons, it lets him test where others want to start wagons, let's him look involved (shows up in vote counts) without actually saying much, and generally seem "town" (in his opinion) because he's following his meta.

He's got (and/or is building) a meta that lets him completely fly under the radar when he is scum because it doesn't require faking anything.

The problem with this whole thing is that it seems helpful to him, from his perspective, no matter his alignment. But it does nothing to make the rest of us believe he's town because it's just as easy for him to claim that he's doing the same thing he always does, whether town or scum. So the responses to his blind votes don't mean anything to us since we don't know why he initially posted it.

So overall, faust's strategy is good for him, bad for the rest of us. The biggest problem is that he could be genuinely trying to be helpful town, but just as easily could be scum easily hiding behind his D1 meta.

He waa obviously scum last game. There are key differences in town!faust and scum!faust that makes this strategy pro-town.

[MiX]

You should just have a playstyle as town that maximizes scum flips. Who cares if it's easy to fake if you win your town games? That just means you always win.

[MiX]

Prod: e

[jotheonah]

You guys are all wrong. That exchange was extremely enlightening. Faust is town and Jimmmmm is scum.

Vote: Jimmmmm