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Author Topic: Weekly Design Contest 118: Short and Sweet!  (Read 11310 times)

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spineflu

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 118: Short and Sweet!
« Reply #50 on: June 19, 2021, 09:40:52 am »
0

@faust's Laborer: I'm skimming through the discussion. I hope my comments on this are not unwelcome. What if we say that cost-increasing happens before cost-reduction, as a general rule? I'm not too versed with strange costs (Wayfarer mostly), but this seems like it should solve problems.

I guess it's not my card / not my call, but picture what this looks like in terms of the dominion dot games log - all the sudden you're inserting events before the card is played. Likewise Gubump's proposal - it creates this weird inconsistency where the whole turn needs to be evaluated in one go (despite not being complete), instead of proceeding as one small event leading to another small event. My way also doesn't require any special handling or differentiation between Bridge's cost reduction and Highway's cost reduction.

Like, i understand that the shuffleit client isn't the end-all be-all of what dominion is, but it's a working framework where otherwise we're playing calvinball.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2021, 10:03:11 am by spineflu »
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 118: Short and Sweet!
« Reply #51 on: June 19, 2021, 11:57:56 am »
0

@faust's Laborer: I'm skimming through the discussion. I hope my comments on this are not unwelcome. What if we say that cost-increasing happens before cost-reduction, as a general rule? I'm not too versed with strange costs (Wayfarer mostly), but this seems like it should solve problems.

I guess it's not my card / not my call, but picture what this looks like in terms of the dominion dot games log - all the sudden you're inserting events before the card is played. Likewise Gubump's proposal - it creates this weird inconsistency where the whole turn needs to be evaluated in one go (despite not being complete),

You don't need to evaluate the future. You only need to evaluate everything that's happened prior in the turn...just like you have to do with +Actions, +, and +Buys, among other things.
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spineflu

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 118: Short and Sweet!
« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2021, 01:01:41 pm »
+1

@faust's Laborer: I'm skimming through the discussion. I hope my comments on this are not unwelcome. What if we say that cost-increasing happens before cost-reduction, as a general rule? I'm not too versed with strange costs (Wayfarer mostly), but this seems like it should solve problems.

I guess it's not my card / not my call, but picture what this looks like in terms of the dominion dot games log - all the sudden you're inserting events before the card is played. Likewise Gubump's proposal - it creates this weird inconsistency where the whole turn needs to be evaluated in one go (despite not being complete),

You don't need to evaluate the future. You only need to evaluate everything that's happened prior in the turn...just like you have to do with +Actions, +, and +Buys, among other things.

you do if you play enough cost reduction and then play cost increases. Everything else does not require this evaluation filter of "is the cost less than zero? if so, its now zero, but if you increase the cost, it was not presently zero"

Lets consider possibly the only canon example we have for what I'm describing vs what you're describing: poor house and wot chameleon, plus some source of coins on action cards.

Like a moron, I played two peddlers before drawing into my poor house. I've got $2 at the moment. Lets say other than that, I've got a hand full of Copper - 4 coppers, one poor house.
I play Poor House using chameleon, draw four cards (lets say it was a Bad 4 cards - all curses - unhelpful) and reveal my hand - four coppers there. How much money do I have at the moment? $0. $2 - $4 => $0.

Now lets play our treasures. I say we end up with $4 - we were at $0, each one contributed $1.

Your reasoning on this puts us at $2 - we were secretly at $-2 (filtered to appear at $0 before more coins were present) but then played 4◊$1 worth of treasures. But we know that's wrong.

I don't see why costs should work differently here - you evaluate things in the order they're played, once you hit a floor, that's the new value.


Likewise, we know that order-of-treasures does matter with things like Bank and Fortune - we can't insert the +$ amounts before all the -$ amounts in the order things are played - time travel evaluation is not how the game works. Again, cost adjustment should be consistent with every other tool we've got.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2021, 01:41:48 pm by spineflu »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest 118: Short and Sweet!
« Reply #53 on: June 19, 2021, 09:08:57 pm »
+4


Sentinel ($4)
Action - Duration

Now and at the start of your next turn: Exile a card from your hand, then +1 Card per $2 it costs (rounded down).

24 words and counting, and it only seems to use 5 lines :)

(Had to use a link cause my stupid brain couldn't figure out how to load the image directly, sorry)
« Last Edit: June 20, 2021, 12:47:18 pm by spineflu »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest 118: Short and Sweet!
« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2021, 04:17:50 am »
+2

you do if you play enough cost reduction and then play cost increases. Everything else does not require this evaluation filter of "is the cost less than zero? if so, its now zero, but if you increase the cost, it was not presently zero"
[...]
Since this discussion is kind of spamming the thread at this point, I have split it off into a separate thread where I gave my reply. For the purposes of my submission to this contest, my ruling stands.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest 118: Short and Sweet!
« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2021, 11:57:30 am »
+1

https://imgur.com/a/rvLF6oV
Sentinel ($4)
Action - Duration

Now and at the start of your next turn: Exile a card from your hand, then +1 Card per $2 it costs (rounded down).

24 words and counting, and it only seems to use 5 lines :)

(Had to use a link cause my stupid brain couldn't figure out how to load the image directly, sorry)

Right click on the image on Imgur -> open image in new tab, copy filename from url (or right click -> copy image link). Then, without spaces:
[ img width=250 ]filename[ /img ]
« Last Edit: June 20, 2021, 12:02:30 pm by Gubump »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest 118: Short and Sweet!
« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2021, 03:12:06 pm »
+2

ever wanted your Silvers to be cantrips? who hasn't, these days. just line them up with one of these and there you go.

thought about something similar for last week's contest but forgot to post in time. i feel like this is balanced, not sure if it's all that interesting, but it definitely can help smooth out a deck relying on treasure payload (yes, you get the 2 money from playing the silver)
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Re: Weekly Design Contest 118: Short and Sweet!
« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2021, 03:51:09 pm »
+3

ever wanted your Silvers to be cantrips? who hasn't, these days. just line them up with one of these and there you go.

thought about something similar for last week's contest but forgot to post in time. i feel like this is balanced, not sure if it's all that interesting, but it definitely can help smooth out a deck relying on treasure payload (yes, you get the 2 money from playing the silver)
I don't think this is going to work out. The main reason is that it is so bad when it fails to connect to Silver. I would try it at "+1 card, +1 action, you may play a Silver from your hand for +1 card". It can still probably cost $3 as it's not a particularly compelling opener.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest 118: Short and Sweet!
« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2021, 07:10:09 pm »
+5

ever wanted your Silvers to be cantrips? who hasn't, these days. just line them up with one of these and there you go.

thought about something similar for last week's contest but forgot to post in time. i feel like this is balanced, not sure if it's all that interesting, but it definitely can help smooth out a deck relying on treasure payload (yes, you get the 2 money from playing the silver)
I don't think this is going to work out. The main reason is that it is so bad when it fails to connect to Silver. I would try it at "+1 card, +1 action, you may play a Silver from your hand for +1 card". It can still probably cost $3 as it's not a particularly compelling opener.

You could also go the Baron route: "If you didn't, gain a Silver."
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Re: Weekly Design Contest 118: Short and Sweet!
« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2021, 03:24:59 am »
+4

I hope this hasnt been done before: Its a lab if its the first action you played this turn, otherwise its a bad drawer


v2

v3: Changed art (because i found a painting I liked), and changed wording so it doesn't become bad with duration cards in play


Edit 4: Changed wording again and reformated a little bit
« Last Edit: June 21, 2021, 05:19:02 pm by fika monster »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest 118: Short and Sweet!
« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2021, 08:36:10 am »
0

ever wanted your Silvers to be cantrips? who hasn't, these days. just line them up with one of these and there you go.

thought about something similar for last week's contest but forgot to post in time. i feel like this is balanced, not sure if it's all that interesting, but it definitely can help smooth out a deck relying on treasure payload (yes, you get the 2 money from playing the silver)
I don't think this is going to work out. The main reason is that it is so bad when it fails to connect to Silver. I would try it at "+1 card, +1 action, you may play a Silver from your hand for +1 card". It can still probably cost $3 as it's not a particularly compelling opener.

You could also go the Baron route: "If you didn't, gain a Silver."
I think i like the baron route more: otherwise you could keep spamming the card as a cantrip which seems too strong
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Re: Weekly Design Contest 118: Short and Sweet!
« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2021, 10:27:47 am »
+3



Tutelage is my submission for the week.  In theory, you could use Tutelage to chain several Action cards (e.g. start with playing a Prince, then Forge, then Hunting Grounds, etc).  I believe Throne Room variants would allow you to re-start the chain with higher cost cards.

Sounds nutty, as it would almost be like having unlimited Actions, but I don't think this this will be a common occurrence as pulling off a mega-chain would depend on having the right cards available in the Kingdom, the right deck composition, and good draws.  In practice (although this has not yet been playtested), I think you would probably be able to chain 1-2 Actions together with this on average.

I've priced this the same as Barracks and Innovation, but feedback on the cost would be welcome.  Unlike Barracks, you don't get what is essentially +Action if you don't have suitable cards in hand, but if you do, then you can potentially get more than +1 Action.  Tutelage can have the same effect as Innovation with cards that gain to hand like Sculptor and Falconer (without Innovation's once per turn limitation), but of course wouldn't work this way with any Workshop variants that gain cards normally.

The effect will apply even when you play cards during your opponents' turns (e.g. if you react with Falconer).  It could be quite disruptive, but I think it's fine to keep it that way.

I don't think a Project that essentially provides unlimited Actions would be all that interesting, but I don't think it would be quite so easy to pull that off with Tutelage.  In any case, my hope is that this Project would create some interesting decisions about the optimal order in which you play your Actions and how you build your deck.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest 118: Short and Sweet!
« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2021, 01:53:49 pm »
0


Sentinel ($4)
Action - Duration

Now and at the start of your next turn: Exile a card from your hand, then +1 Card per $2 it costs (rounded down).

24 words and counting, and it only seems to use 5 lines :)

(Had to use a link cause my stupid brain couldn't figure out how to load the image directly, sorry)

Ô like apprentice so this seems fun. Exile is a really good effect, but being forced to exile a card next turn without knowing what you get seems sufficiently bad combined with it being terminal and duration that the 4$ is probably right
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Re: Weekly Design Contest 118: Short and Sweet!
« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2021, 03:24:59 pm »
+1


Sentinel ($4)
Action - Duration

Now and at the start of your next turn: Exile a card from your hand, then +1 Card per $2 it costs (rounded down).

24 words and counting, and it only seems to use 5 lines :)

(Had to use a link cause my stupid brain couldn't figure out how to load the image directly, sorry)

Official cards now use "(round down)" instead of "(rounded down)" when rounding is needed. (Gardens, Vineyard, Philosopher's Stone, Bishop, Fairgrounds, Silk Road, and Feodum).
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Re: Weekly Design Contest 118: Short and Sweet!
« Reply #64 on: June 21, 2021, 05:36:37 pm »
0

https://imgur.com/a/rvLF6oV
Sentinel ($4)
Action - Duration

Now and at the start of your next turn: Exile a card from your hand, then +1 Card per $2 it costs (rounded down).

24 words and counting, and it only seems to use 5 lines :)

(Had to use a link cause my stupid brain couldn't figure out how to load the image directly, sorry)

Right click on the image on Imgur -> open image in new tab, copy filename from url (or right click -> copy image link). Then, without spaces:
[ img width=250 ]filename[ /img ]

Yeah, that's what I remember doing for the last one of these I entered, but the image didn't load for awhile so I thought I messed it up. Seems like this image is also loaded correctly, does it just take a little bit for the site to load images? (or is that just a "me" problem?)
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spineflu

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 118: Short and Sweet!
« Reply #65 on: June 21, 2021, 07:08:18 pm »
0

https://imgur.com/a/rvLF6oV
Sentinel ($4)
Action - Duration

Now and at the start of your next turn: Exile a card from your hand, then +1 Card per $2 it costs (rounded down).

24 words and counting, and it only seems to use 5 lines :)

(Had to use a link cause my stupid brain couldn't figure out how to load the image directly, sorry)

Right click on the image on Imgur -> open image in new tab, copy filename from url (or right click -> copy image link). Then, without spaces:
[ img width=250 ]filename[ /img ]

Yeah, that's what I remember doing for the last one of these I entered, but the image didn't load for awhile so I thought I messed it up. Seems like this image is also loaded correctly, does it just take a little bit for the site to load images? (or is that just a "me" problem?)
no, i went in and fixed your post (i do that sometimes for newer members - it takes a minute to remember phpbb markup). feel free to press the quote button to see how i formatted it for future posts.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest 118: Short and Sweet!
« Reply #66 on: June 21, 2021, 07:27:55 pm »
+1

Right click on the image on Imgur -> open image in new tab, copy filename from url (or right click -> copy image link). Then, without spaces:
[ img width=250 ]filename[ /img ]

Yeah, that's what I remember doing for the last one of these I entered, but the image didn't load for awhile so I thought I messed it up. Seems like this image is also loaded correctly, does it just take a little bit for the site to load images? (or is that just a "me" problem?)
no, i went in and fixed your post (i do that sometimes for newer members - it takes a minute to remember phpbb markup). feel free to press the quote button to see how i formatted it for future posts.

As a reminder, there is also a tag [I'm not sure this is the correct word] you can use to share code without it being read by the website:

Code: [Select]
[code]
On the website it is the button with "#" (pound sign/hashtag) on it. Thus, you can explain that the way to display a card is to use the following code (replacing url in there with the url of image from the card you want to show):

Code: [Select]
[img width=250]https://i.imgur.com/JkisHWW.png[/img]
It even comes with a little button that lets you select the text to copy.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest 118: Short and Sweet!
« Reply #67 on: June 21, 2021, 08:05:52 pm »
0



Tutelage is my submission for the week.  In theory, you could use Tutelage to chain several Action cards (e.g. start with playing a Prince, then Forge, then Hunting Grounds, etc).  I believe Throne Room variants would allow you to re-start the chain with higher cost cards.

Sounds nutty, as it would almost be like having unlimited Actions, but I don't think this this will be a common occurrence as pulling off a mega-chain would depend on having the right cards available in the Kingdom, the right deck composition, and good draws.  In practice (although this has not yet been playtested), I think you would probably be able to chain 1-2 Actions together with this on average.

I've priced this the same as Barracks and Innovation, but feedback on the cost would be welcome.  Unlike Barracks, you don't get what is essentially +Action if you don't have suitable cards in hand, but if you do, then you can potentially get more than +1 Action.  Tutelage can have the same effect as Innovation with cards that gain to hand like Sculptor and Falconer (without Innovation's once per turn limitation), but of course wouldn't work this way with any Workshop variants that gain cards normally.

The effect will apply even when you play cards during your opponents' turns (e.g. if you react with Falconer).  It could be quite disruptive, but I think it's fine to keep it that way.

I don't think a Project that essentially provides unlimited Actions would be all that interesting, but I don't think it would be quite so easy to pull that off with Tutelage.  In any case, my hope is that this Project would create some interesting decisions about the optimal order in which you play your Actions and how you build your deck.

Does seem pretty low-priced, but I don't think that is the problem (and neither are the "long chains" you mention). Rather, the fact that this can trigger any number of times per turn seems fairly dangerous... From my experience, it's always best to playtest before jumping to assumptions, but I am at least afraid that this card-shaped-thing could be game-warping.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest 118: Short and Sweet!
« Reply #68 on: June 21, 2021, 08:21:55 pm »
0

24 hour warning!

I see 4 new submissions! Great work! I love the variety of ideas that everyone has brought.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest 118: Short and Sweet!
« Reply #69 on: June 21, 2021, 08:34:58 pm »
+4

Nice to see you judging Mocha~

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 118: Short and Sweet!
« Reply #70 on: June 21, 2021, 09:03:52 pm »
0


Quote
Peddler's Market
$5 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1 per Peddler's Market you have in play.

A very simple Peddler variant.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest 118: Short and Sweet!
« Reply #71 on: June 22, 2021, 01:05:28 am »
0

I hope this hasnt been done before: Its a lab if its the first action you played this turn, otherwise its a bad drawer


v2

v3: Changed art (because i found a painting I liked), and changed wording so it doesn't become bad with duration cards in play


Edit 4: Changed wording again and reformated a little bit


Ok so designing morning walk I had this worry that it had been done before, because I remembered seeing a card doing something like it on the discord some year ago: And I started looking through who I think designed a card like that and came Morning by Carline


This is like really really similar to morning walk: I had hoped designing morning walk that it was different enough in its design from that card that did something like it, but mechanically, without the "under the line effect", its like the same card: Is this too close for the WDC? i don't want to plagiarize
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Re: Weekly Design Contest 118: Short and Sweet!
« Reply #72 on: June 22, 2021, 02:01:00 am »
+3


Quote
Peddler's Market
$5 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1 per Peddler's Market you have in play.

A very simple Peddler variant.

Seems a bit strong for $5.  The first one you play in a turn is already a normal Peddler, but if you play more than one, it adds up really fast.  Two PMs give you +$3 total, three give you +$6, four give you +$10, etc.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest 118: Short and Sweet!
« Reply #73 on: June 22, 2021, 02:23:04 am »
0


Iíve already post this card on an expansion, I let the comment Iíve made about it (with some correction):

Quote
Itís simple: you buy a Province, I discard a Duchy to gain 2vp. So itís interesting to buy Duchy right? Sure but since we all start with 3 Estate maybe youíll give 2vp to the other player while doing so. And if everyone take them and not the Provinces; they wonít be that valuable and there was no real point to buy them.
Itís a type of card that I like because if a game plan is too strong, you may buy a certain card to take advantage of it: Duchy beat Province, Province  beat Estates and Estae beat DuchyÖ

Edit: reworded it to fit with the contest requirements
Edit 2: the previous rewording wasn't "dominiony" enough: it was full of word that aren't usualy used in dominion's cards

Minor nitpick: "Another" is spelled as one word, not two

This would really favor buying alt-VP cards.  E.g., most of the time, Nobles or Fairground would prevent your opponent from taking advantage of this (unless Tunnel is also in the kingdom), so in kingdoms with both this and most alt-VPs, it could get interesting
« Last Edit: June 22, 2021, 02:28:05 am by mxdata »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest 118: Short and Sweet!
« Reply #74 on: June 22, 2021, 09:53:51 am »
0



Tutelage is my submission for the week.  In theory, you could use Tutelage to chain several Action cards (e.g. start with playing a Prince, then Forge, then Hunting Grounds, etc).  I believe Throne Room variants would allow you to re-start the chain with higher cost cards.

Sounds nutty, as it would almost be like having unlimited Actions, but I don't think this this will be a common occurrence as pulling off a mega-chain would depend on having the right cards available in the Kingdom, the right deck composition, and good draws.  In practice (although this has not yet been playtested), I think you would probably be able to chain 1-2 Actions together with this on average.

I've priced this the same as Barracks and Innovation, but feedback on the cost would be welcome.  Unlike Barracks, you don't get what is essentially +Action if you don't have suitable cards in hand, but if you do, then you can potentially get more than +1 Action.  Tutelage can have the same effect as Innovation with cards that gain to hand like Sculptor and Falconer (without Innovation's once per turn limitation), but of course wouldn't work this way with any Workshop variants that gain cards normally.

The effect will apply even when you play cards during your opponents' turns (e.g. if you react with Falconer).  It could be quite disruptive, but I think it's fine to keep it that way.

I don't think a Project that essentially provides unlimited Actions would be all that interesting, but I don't think it would be quite so easy to pull that off with Tutelage.  In any case, my hope is that this Project would create some interesting decisions about the optimal order in which you play your Actions and how you build your deck.

Does seem pretty low-priced, but I don't think that is the problem (and neither are the "long chains" you mention). Rather, the fact that this can trigger any number of times per turn seems fairly dangerous... From my experience, it's always best to playtest before jumping to assumptions, but I am at least afraid that this card-shaped-thing could be game-warping.

Thanks for the feedback.  I'm not sure what you meant by dangerous.  At it's worst (or best, depending on your point of view), Tutelage would be like having a Champion in play, which while game-warping isn't necessarily an automatic win.  You can trigger Tutelage multiple times in a turn, but as I mentioned before, you're going to be limited by Action cards that you have in hand and there may sometimes be a more optimal order to play your cards which doesn't trigger Tutelage.   

This definitely will be stronger than Barracks on some boards, but I think on others Barracks would be the better Project.  I'm not sure how it would average out - maybe Tutelage should cost $7.  Anyhow, this is just speculation and like you said, the best way to determine the optimal cost (or to know if this is completely broken) would be playtesting.
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