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[infangthief]

When Awaclus brings up the possibility that Didds might have doctored Bright, Swowl responds with:

Swowl explains to Awaclus that he considered this.

Then a bit later:

Swowl gasps, as they forgot about the WCD doctor shot thing.

Then a bit later, Didds says:

I doctored Awaclus last night, which I also told the qt.

From context, I understand the qt in that last quote to be the Snow White neighbourhood.

So Swowl, Didds, how do you feel about the inconsistencies here?

[infangthief]

Ok, well, BM and all.

Joth, did Didds doctor Awaclus last night?

[infangthief]

And while we're at it...
Joth, is Didds a Bad Dwarf?

[Galzria]

Posting. Don’t prod me. Will catch up tonight.

[Swowl]

Swowl tells fang this is out of context.
Swowl confirms all the statements listed, but when they said "they forgot" they were speaking about that exact instance in the back and forth with Awaclus.
Swowl points out that is why he said "I forgot".

[WestCoastDidds]

When Awaclus brings up the possibility that Didds might have doctored Bright, Swowl responds with:

Swowl explains to Awaclus that he considered this.

Then a bit later:

Swowl gasps, as they forgot about the WCD doctor shot thing.

Then a bit later, Didds says:

I doctored Awaclus last night, which I also told the qt.

From context, I understand the qt in that last quote to be the Snow White neighbourhood.

So Swowl, Didds, how do you feel about the inconsistencies here?

I am not bothered by the Swowl inconsistencies nor do I find them scummy. A couple of reasons.... our QT is long. Like 200 messages so far long. It’s easy for things to get lost in the shuffle. The doctor order goes in my qt with Joth, so he’s not seeing it bolded or anything like that.

Second, and maybe more important, my ability is super hazy. It only works on some players. And it’s not reliable and might even hurt, but Joth won’t tell me what those odds are. So, I’m doctoring folks that I think might be scum so that if they get hurt, that helps us.

[WestCoastDidds]

And while we're at it...
Joth, is Didds a Bad Dwarf?

Joth told me to tell you that Didds is a Good Dwarf

[mathdude]

Ok, well, BM and all.

Joth, did Didds doctor Awaclus last night?

Let's see what else gets answered.

joth, if a doctor role successfully prevents from dying someone targeted by a kill ability, would there be any message from you confirming this? Would you send someone a message in a QT or in this game thread to the effect of a successful doctor save?

Another question... if there are multiple protections on the same person, is there an order or priority that they occur? Would one take precedence and the other(s) do nothing?

Let's keep going. Joth, who did Didds target last night?

Is fang or pasta in any QT related to this game with someone else who is playing, rather than just with you?

I think that's enough for now.

[scolapasta]

What did I start?!?

[Awaclus]

Or there are scum in Galz, Fang, Awa and they can’t quickhammer because they are the freaking scum.

That is not mutually exclusive with the statement that either you're scum or there is at most 1 scum in [Swowl, mathdude, Bright], unless scum has simply chosen not to take this opportunity to quickhammer. For example, if the scum is Galz/Fang/mathdude, then Galz and Fang can't quickhammer because they are the freaking scum, and there is at most 1 scum in [Swowl, mathdude, Bright].

By the way, now that list of at most 1 scum also includes scolapasta. And for it to be consistent with the fortress protecting, even though it only protects against attacks from scum, that at most 1 scum in that list would have to be Swowl.

I doctored Awaclus.

We are assuming the fortress protected because Swowl aimed the axesword at Bright, and because this morning we were told that the fortress had been attacked.

We are not assuming the fortress protected, because we have no way to confirm that you doctored me. The fact that you were told that the fortress had been attacked doesn't confirm that, it only confirms that someone (presumably Swowl) attacked the fortress (presumably with a sword), which I think nobody is questioning. Flavor-wise, if you were in a fortress, surely you would notice if someone charged in with a sword and stabbed one of you, even if a doctor managed to keep him alive by healing his wounds, so it's not strange that you would get notified that the fortress had been attacked.

Second, and maybe more important, my ability is super hazy. It only works on some players. And it’s not reliable and might even hurt, but Joth won’t tell me what those odds are. So, I’m doctoring folks that I think might be scum so that if they get hurt, that helps us.

Did you ever inform any of the QTs about this? If so, when (notably, was it before or after the fact that I had claimed a hazy ability that is not reliable and might even hurt)?

I think that's enough for now.

I have one more

Joth, hypothetically speaking, if a dwarf A forges a cursed sword and hands it to another dwarf B who is forced to choose someone to kill with it, would the origin of the kill be considered to be dwarf A or dwarf B? Completely hypothetically, without confirming whether or not that is a thing that could happen in this game and whether or not the answer would matter for any reason in this game.

[Awaclus]

@Swowl: which part of this do you disagree with?

• Bright's claim that the fortress protection only works when the attack originates from scum and everyone in the fortress is town is believable.
• Therefore, if Galz is considered to be the origin of the attack, the protection can't work, because he is in the fortress and he can't be both town and scum.
• If you are considered to be the origin of the attack, the protection can't work if you're town.
• You're town.
• It does not seem plausible within reason that anyone other than you or Galzria could be considered to be the origin of the attack.
• It follows that the protection did not work.

[Awaclus]

Oh right, I almost forgot to respond to this one.

The mental gymnastics that it takes for Awa to be right require that
1. I talk Swowl into targeting someone in the fortress (this did not happen)
2. That Swowl tells me who he is targeting in time for me to doctor that person
3. That the person is someone I can doctor and my shot is successful (these are hazy to me because Joth)
4. That there could be a scum doctor

1. That is not required. If anything, this is probably not a situation you wanted to find yourself in, but more of a situation where it was about to get revealed that the fortress protection doesn't work as long as you're in it, and you were forced to do what you could to keep that fact concealed. Well, it's pointless to speculate about that because it doesn't really matter: Swowl did in fact decide to target Bright, so this is how it worked out.

2. That did happen.

3. It sure is a convenient time for this fact to surface. However, even if it's true, it doesn't prove anything, unless we can prove that Bright is not someone you can doctor. Even if it's risky, scum!you had to take that risk in that situation because not even trying would have been strictly worse.

4. It looks like scum doctors are Normal on MafiaScum, there could very easily be a scum doctor in an f.ds BM.

[Awaclus]

And I don’t know what the point would be.

Yes you do. As it turns out, the mere possibility that the fortress protection didn't work is so inconvenient for you that you're trying to deny it, even though it's clearly there. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be a reason for three people to be voting for you, and you could just admit that the possibility is indeed there and you would be fine. Surely, by extension, having it confirmed would be much worse, and quite likely worth using a doctor shot for. Especially if Galzria is your scum buddy.

If I was scum, I would want someone to die. Saving them would be counter productive

So, you're saying that if you were town, you would not want someone to die and saving them would be productive, yet you're claiming you didn't do that?

[jotheonah]

What am I, a magic 8 ball?  Ask again later.

[Awaclus]

I would unironically like to have this answered and I don't think it's an obviously unreasonable question:

Joth, hypothetically speaking, if a dwarf A forges a cursed sword and hands it to another dwarf B who is forced to choose someone to kill with it, would the origin of the kill be considered to be dwarf A or dwarf B? Completely hypothetically, without confirming whether or not that is a thing that could happen in this game and whether or not the answer would matter for any reason in this game.

[jotheonah]

Hypothetically, a mod is more likely to answer a question about a specific power in the QT of someone who has mod-originated information that power exists than in the main thread.

[Awaclus]

Fine, can you go answer that question in the QT of any people who might have that role?

[infangthief]

What am I, a magic 8 ball?  Ask again later.

Are you a magic 8 ball?

[infangthief]

Swowl tells fang this is out of context.
Swowl confirms all the statements listed, but when they said "they forgot" they were speaking about that exact instance in the back and forth with Awaclus.
Swowl points out that is why he said "I forgot".

Oh, I thought the back and forth with Awaclus was entirely about whether the "fortress attacked" message would have occurred if Didds had doctored Bright.
Maybe I should go and reread it.

[WestCoastDidds]

And I don’t know what the point would be.

Yes you do. As it turns out, the mere possibility that the fortress protection didn't work is so inconvenient for you that you're trying to deny it, even though it's clearly there. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be a reason for three people to be voting for you, and you could just admit that the possibility is indeed there and you would be fine. Surely, by extension, having it confirmed would be much worse, and quite likely worth using a doctor shot for. Especially if Galzria is your scum buddy.

If I was scum, I would want someone to die. Saving them would be counter productive

So, you're saying that if you were town, you would not want someone to die and saving them would be productive, yet you're claiming you didn't do that?

I am town, I did not want someone to die. I didn’t have anything to do with Bright dying or not, except that I am in the fortress and I am not scum which helps it’s maintain it’s protective power, according to Bright.

There are are like 5 avenues of backward logic here and I can’t even follow you through the twists. There is no scenario where I am playing 3 levels beyond like that. You have played with me for a couple of years now...I think you know this. That’s not how I even consider proceeding. It’s too complicated and I am notoriously bad at being able to twist and lie. The most logical reasoning is that the protection held because there are no scum. For me to fake the protection holding seems absurd. The effort that you are expending trying to concoct a plausible scenario is way beyond plausible.

Also, the haziness of my doc abilities was not conveniently revealed. I’ve said that from the beginning in my qt, and it feels like more than once here although I don’t have time to read back to check.

[WestCoastDidds]

I’m going camping tonight. I’ll be back home tomorrow.

Please don’t exile me while I’m gone. I don’t know that we have much latitude to lose many more town and I don’t want us to lose because I’m off in the first being a good dwarf and frolicking among the trees.

[Awaclus]

I am town, I did not want someone to die. I didn’t have anything to do with Bright dying or not, except that I am in the fortress and I am not scum which helps it’s maintain it’s protective power, according to Bright.

You are a doctor, you could have tried to prevent the kill. From what I gather, you did not know the fortress wouldn't protect against a kill coming from town, though, so if you're going to claim you didn't take into account the possibility of Swowl being town, fair enough. Even then, the chances of at least one of Galz or Bright being scum was 64.3% from your perspective (and even if you hadn't done the math, it should have been easy to tell by intuition that the chance was high (my own intuition would suggest a higher than 64.3% chance)).

If you were aware that the protection only works against scum attacks, that would have been even worse because Swowl would have had to be scum in addition to Galz and Bright being town, making the chances very bad.

There are are like 5 avenues of backward logic here and I can’t even follow you through the twists. There is no scenario where I am playing 3 levels beyond like that. You have played with me for a couple of years now...I think you know this. That’s not how I even consider proceeding. It’s too complicated and I am notoriously bad at being able to twist and lie. The most logical reasoning is that the protection held because there are no scum. For me to fake the protection holding seems absurd. The effort that you are expending trying to concoct a plausible scenario is way beyond plausible.

The scenario is a bit complicated in and of itself, but assuming you were keeping up with it, the logic behind the decision to protect Bright is very simple: you knew you were about to get exposed as scum, you did what you could to prevent it from happening. I believe you would be easily capable of realizing this as scum, and you have partners who would also probably realize it even if you didn't, especially because you were witnessing the scenario unfold firsthand.

Also, the haziness of my doc abilities was not conveniently revealed. I’ve said that from the beginning in my qt, and it feels like more than once here although I don’t have time to read back to check.

That makes that part of the claim a bit more credible, but it doesn't prove it's true — you could have claimed it early just so people wouldn't suspect you when your ability never managed to protect anyone (in which case it would have been just a coincidence that you were also able to use it as an argument in this situation). And as I already brought up, even if it's true, it doesn't prove you didn't successfully protect Bright.

[Awaclus]

I guess I should ask Didds this same question: what part of this do you disagree with?

• Bright's claim that the fortress protection only works when the attack originates from scum and everyone in the fortress is town is believable.
• Therefore, if Galz is considered to be the origin of the attack, the protection can't work, because he is in the fortress and he can't be both town and scum.
• If Swowl is considered to be the origin of the attack, the protection can't work if he's town.
• Swowl is town.
• It does not seem plausible within reason that anyone other than Swowl or Galzria could be considered to be the origin of the attack.
• It follows that the protection did not work.

I mean, it would not be particularly weird for you to disagree with 4. But you don't seem to be treating Swowl as confirmed scum, which is what you should be doing if you're going to insist that the fortress protection worked.

[WestCoastDidds]

I guess I should ask Didds this same question: what part of this do you disagree with?

• Bright's claim that the fortress protection only works when the attack originates from scum and everyone in the fortress is town is believable.
• Therefore, if Galz is considered to be the origin of the attack, the protection can't work, because he is in the fortress and he can't be both town and scum.
• If Swowl is considered to be the origin of the attack, the protection can't work if he's town.
• Swowl is town.
• It does not seem plausible within reason that anyone other than Swowl or Galzria could be considered to be the origin of the attack.
• It follows that the protection did not work.

I mean, it would not be particularly weird for you to disagree with 4. But you don't seem to be treating Swowl as confirmed scum, which is what you should be doing if you're going to insist that the fortress protection worked.

When bright explained the fortress protection, he said it protected us as long as there were no scum in it. I know nothing about this idea that the attack had to come from scum. Bright didn’t say that in the qt, there is nothing Joth has said in the fortress that suggests that, and I’m not sure that follows what what has been said.

I had/have some suspicion that Brighty is scum and the fortress might kill whoever else is in it if he dies, but that seems super unbalanced. The text of the invite specifically says that it offers protection if you trust the builder. So, is he turns out to be untrustworthy, do I get punished?

I think Swowl and Galz are town. I think there are no scum in the fortress, so bright was bulletproof. This also now clears Bright for me. This is the most logical explanation and resonates with my assumptions and what has been said and requires zero acrobatics.

[Awaclus]

When bright explained the fortress protection, he said it protected us as long as there were no scum in it. I know nothing about this idea that the attack had to come from scum. Bright didn’t say that in the qt, there is nothing Joth has said in the fortress that suggests that, and I’m not sure that follows what what has been said.

There is something interesting about the wording of my role though, it says, paraphrasing, that the fortress only helps against the mafia.