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[Mahowrath]

Weekly Design Contest #108: How Deep is your Pile? (hopefully not 10 deep)

Hey everyone, hope you're well. Without further ado:

I'm looking for cards or card shaped objects, that either come in a supply pile of not 10 cards, or interact with pile(s)/deck(s) outside of the supply, of not 10 cards.

Examples are: Rats (20 cards in pile), Port (12 cards in pile), Alt VPs (8 or 12 cards in pile), Tournament (Prize pile), Travellers (non-supply piles of 5), Black Market (Black Market Deck) and Fates/Dooms (Boons/Hexes piles of 12).
Non-examples are: Magpie (10 cards in pile), Urchin (10 cards in Urchin and Mercenary piles), Pooka/Cursed Gold (Heirlooms not interactable piles out of supply), Delay (no such affiliated pile/deck), Catapult/Rocks (still a 10 card supply pile).


Deadline: Entries by 23:59 (GMT) Saturday 20th. Will put out a 24-hour reminder Friday night, and list the nominations I've seen.

I'll be checking back frequently to answer questions, clear up ambiguity, and let people know if their entries aren't eligible. Feel free to ping me questions.


Judgement will be me looking over the entries and picking out the one(s) I like most at the time of judging.
Rough criteria for liking cards:

• not having seen the card idea already
• being fun to play with (thought-inducing, balance, minimal swinginess)
• flavour (the entry represents something)
• style in meeting the requirement (some of the reasons for a non-standard pile size are easier to work than others, and I aim to praise effort taken to meet this in an interesting way)

Good luck!

Addendum: I've made the ruling that your starting deck can be the not-10-card deck outside of the supply interacted with, if you wish to make a card that alters its starting size

[spineflu]

I've got a weird preliminary entry that i'm not sure I wanna stick with

EDIT: this is withdrawn; my new entry is here

Succession • @6* • Confusion
When you gain this, if it's your turn and you don't have a marker on the Succession pile, +% equal to the amount of debt you have and place your marker on the pile; if it's not your turn, +6%.

When this pile is empty, the game ends.

This costs @1 less for each marker on its pile.

Pile size is variable - number of players, plus one.
Markers referred to are a player-specific geegaw, like the project cubes. You only get VP the first time you buy it - if you're buying to empty the pile,

Card type is kind of a deep cut to early dominion outtakes - it doesn't do anything but take up space in your deck once its in there.

The "if it's not your turn" is as an ambassador counter - otherwise its too easy to buy one, return the rest to the pile, no one else gets VP and the game ends.

This probably needs tweaking - very open to feedback + opinions.

[X-tra]

Technically, any Victory card posted here would count, right? They either have 8 or 12 cards in them, and not 10. Would this count (just making sure)?

[mxdata]

I take it there needs to be a good reason for having something other than 10 cards?  I.e., just making a random card and saying "there's 12 of these in the pile" wouldn't work?

Would split piles count, since there's only 5 of each part, or would they not count since it's still a pile with 10 cards?

[pubby]

There's no Dolmen pile. They just go under all the other piles. A pile isn't empty unless its Dolmen card is bought.

[emtzalex]

There's no Dolmen pile. They just go under all the other piles.

Wouldn't that meant there are 10 of them (barring Looters/Young Witch)?

[spineflu]

There's no Dolmen pile. They just go under all the other piles.

Wouldn't that meant there are 10 of them (barring Looters/Young Witch)?

supply, not kingdom. so 17 at minimum, potentially 22 if potions/colonies/yw/looters

[Holger]

There's no Dolmen pile. They just go under all the other piles.

I suppose a pile doesn't count as empty when the Dolmen card remains?

[Mahowrath]

Technically, any Victory card posted here would count, right? They either have 8 or 12 cards in them, and not 10. Would this count (just making sure)?

Yes, any victory card pile is eligible. I didn't want to make this contest too exclusionary, but considering "style in meeting the requirement": submissions like Rats would have potential to score more highly than say Gardens.

I take it there needs to be a good reason for having something other than 10 cards?  I.e., just making a random card and saying "there's 12 of these in the pile" wouldn't work?

Would split piles count, since there's only 5 of each part, or would they not count since it's still a pile with 10 cards?

A good reason for changing the pile amount would be appreciated; I'll be analysing for this, and no one likes complexity for complexity's sake.
A Split pile like Catapult/Rocks is ineligible, thanks for checking. I'll add that to the original post.

[Aquila]

Resources - all Action Resource type, $2 cost.
Fruit - You may play an Action card that costs more than this from your hand. Then, +2 Cards.
Ore - +1 Action, + $2
Refuge - +1 Card, +2 Actions, Discard a card.
Water Source - +1 Card, +1 Action, If you have exactly 5 cards in hand, trash one of them.
Wood - +1 Card, +1 Action, +1 Buy

These Resources are a Supply pile that behave just like Ruins. 10 of each, shuffled at game start and only the top is seen. But unlike Ruins, all 50 are used in every game (see Expedition Camp). They're designed to create a bit of randomness whilst letting every kind of engine component be available in a game.
To lessen the randomness a bit, when you buy (not gain) a Resource, you look at the top 2 from the pile and pick one. If you choose the second one down, the top one goes to the bottom of the pile.

And a card that adds the Resources to the Supply, with the Gatherer type:

Expedition Camp - Action Duration Gatherer, $4 cost.
If this is the first Expedition camp you've played this turn and the previous turn wasn't yours, take another turn after this one, and you draw 5 fewer cards for your next hand.
At the start of that turn, you may trash this to gain 3 Resources to your hand.

An Outpost variant that can be trashed for a random hand of 3 cards on the bonus turn. Only the first Expedition Camp played on a turn gives the bonus turn, but each extra Camp played can be trashed on the bonus turn for 3 more Resources to hand.
This needs at least 30 Resources in the pile to fully function no matter how many players there are. 50 lets Lurkers/Graverobbers enable more plays.

Here's a simpler auxiliary Gatherer card, not my submission if only one kingdom pile is to be judged, to demonstrate how there can be different Gatherers (and if there are multiple in a game, 50 Resources are more justified)

Subsidy - Action Gatherer, $5 cost.
+1 Buy
+ $1 per $1 you've produced with Actions other than Subsidy this turn.

Duplicate the $ all your other Actions have made. All the Resources help support it in some way, but the order of the Resources may dictate how relevant it becomes to a game. You have to buy the Resources yourself or gain them with another Gatherer.

Edit: amends to a hasty first post. Added the when buy rule to Resources (for better or worse), and the Resources are added to the 'Supply' with the Gatherer type. Thanks gambit for spotting it.
Edit 2: Changed Subsidy from doubling all $ to just those your other Actions have produced. Necessary nerf and Capitalism-proofing.
Edit 3: Added Expedition Camp as the primary card to judge.

[gambit05]

Shouldn't Subsidy say something like "Gain a Resource."?

[spineflu]

Shouldn't Subsidy say something like "Gain a Resource."?

Maybe it just adds them to the kingdom so you can buy them?

[gambit05]

Shouldn't Subsidy say something like "Gain a Resource."?

Maybe it just adds them to the kingdom so you can buy them?

Yes, that is a possibility. I was confused about the statement "And a card that adds the Resources to the pile, with the Gatherer type:", especially "pile". Aquila probably means Kingdom. Edit: Kingdom doesn't work, it should be "Supply" or "board".

[gambit05]

Updated Submission:

Revenant $2 - Action +2 Actions +1 Buy   You may set this aside. If you     do, +1 Card per empty Supply    pile and return it to the Supply  at the start of Clean-up. -------------------------- Setup: 3 copies per player.

Minor functions: A cheap card that can provide Actions and an extra Buy, features important in many Kingdoms and player’s decks that should not be undervalued.
Revenant can be activated for additional card drawing when Supply piles are empty.

Main function: The ability to manipulate how many Supply piles are empty and thus, having some control over ending the game via 3 empty piles. This can be achieved by gaining Revenants, and by playing and returning them or not.

A note to the tactical use:
A player, who wants to force ending the game by 3 empty piles, or who just wants to have an empty pile for activating other cards (e.g. City, Paddock) tries to empty the Revenant pile or, if already empty, wants to keep it empty by not returning their Revenants to it. On the contrary, a player, who does not want to end the game via 3 empty piles or who does not want to activate other cards, tries to avoid an empty Revenant pile.
Additional options to manipulate the Revenant pile are trashing, remodeling, Exiling (particularly interesting), and (in a few cases) gaining Revenants back from the trash as well as cost reduction of cards.


My Original Submission:

Revenant $2 - Action +2 Actions +1 Buy   +1 Card per empty Supply pile.  Return this to the Supply at the start of Clean-up. --------------------------- Setup: 2 copies per player.

[BBobb]

My Submission:

Revenant $2 - Action +2 Actions +1 Buy   +1 Card per empty Supply pile.  Return this to the Supply at the start of Clean-up. --------------------------- Setup: 2 copies per player.

Just wondering, but why cant this have a normal pile size?

[Gubump]

My Submission:

Revenant $2 - Action +2 Actions +1 Buy   +1 Card per empty Supply pile.  Return this to the Supply at the start of Clean-up. --------------------------- Setup: 2 copies per player.

I think this would compare terribly to Encampment even if it always gave +2 Cards. +1 Buy doesn't really make up for the fact that there's no way to avoid it being a one-shot.

[mxdata]

My Submission:

Revenant $2 - Action +2 Actions +1 Buy   +1 Card per empty Supply pile.  Return this to the Supply at the start of Clean-up. --------------------------- Setup: 2 copies per player.

Why "at the start of clean-up" rather than when played, like most one-shots?

[pubby]

I suppose a pile doesn't count as empty when the Dolmen card remains?

Yeah that's correct.

[gambit05]

Just wondering, but why cant this have a normal pile size?

There are 2 reasons: 1) To make it easier to activate Revenant (empty pile). 2) With a low Revenant pile, there is always the tactical possibility of 3-piling.

Why "at the start of clean-up" rather than when played, like most one-shots?

Imagine that the pile is empty and a player has 2 copies of Revenant in hand:
Now when they play the first one they get +1 Card (assuming no other pile is empty). If that Revenant would go immediately back to its pile, then 1) the second Revenant wouldn't get the draw and 2) the player could gain back the Revenant in their Buy phase. However, if played Revenants are returned to their pile after the Buy phase, the second Revenant also gets also +1 Card (due to the Revenant pile still being empty) and the player cannot gain those Revenants back.

I think this would compare terribly to Encampment even if it always gave +2 Cards. +1 Buy doesn't really make up for the fact that there's no way to avoid it being a one-shot.

Don't underestimate +1 Buy on a cheap card. Many Kingdoms don't have that available. Please also read what I've replied to the other questions (above). Anyway, do you think Encampment is strictly better? Would you always prefer Encampment over Reverant?

[X-tra]

I'm going to attempt something really silly, probably broken (and untested on top of that)! I might withdraw it in the situation where the good people of this forum makes it really obvious to me that it's broken/not working as intended . Anyway, here goes nothing:

     

Institute can be a non-terminal Smithy if it draws you 3 Treasures/Victory cards. Big Money dudes are happy. You start with a deck of 15 cards. 3 turns until the first shuffle instead of 2. Your opening split could be //; or //; or //. Or it could be none of that should you want to trash the junk-y Grants instead of taking their money. If you do, well, your deck is leaner, yay! But adieu, cool opening splits (and adieu 1 too, I guess).

[Xen3k]

This is a 26 card Kingdom pile.

Pigeon - $4
Action
+1 Action
+$1
You may discard a Pigeon for +1 Card and +$1. Otherwise, gain a Pigeon.
----
Setup: Place a Nest token on each supply pile. When you buy a card, if a Nest token is on that pile, discard the Nest token and gain a Pigeon.

A Rats-like card that is almost guaranteed to get into your deck. It is not altogether detrimental like Rats, but it is not very helpful. Probably even beneficial if trash-for-benefit cards are in the Kingdom. I chose 26 as I wanted to really ensure there are good chances you will gain a Pigeon even late game when buying the first Province. The tokens used could really be anything, but I went with "Nest" just for flavor.

[Gubump]

I'm going to attempt something really silly, probably broken (and untested on top of that)! I might withdraw it in the situation where the good people of this forum makes it really obvious to me that it's broken/not working as intended . Anyway, here goes nothing:

     

Institute can be a non-terminal Smithy if it draws you 3 Treasures/Victory cards. Big Money dudes are happy. You start with a deck of 15 cards. 3 turns until the first shuffle instead of 2. Your opening split could be //; or //; or //. Or it could be none of that should you want to trash the junk-y Grants instead of taking their money. If you do, well, your deck is leaner, yay! But adieu, cool opening splits (and adieu 1 too, I guess).

Since Mahowrath updvoted this post, implying that it qualifies, I take it that making your starting deck not 10-cards qualifies?

[spineflu]

Mentally I keep coming back to this quote and wondering if I'm drastically overthinking this contest.

For a while I liked the idea of a village with 20 cards in its pile, with no special connection to the pile being 20 cards. You know, it wouldn't gain copies of itself or anything, there would just be 20 of them. The idea was, for multiplayer, you put in this card and you are set for villages. So many multiplayer games, if there aren't two village piles, you have to build a deck that doesn't need very many villages. But uh surely the multiplayer players know about this already? They must be putting in those villages or living without them already, that's what I think. And it ate up a slot that stopped seeming so available, I could have a pretty 30 kingdom cards 20 events 20 ways. I came up with a lot of villages trying to be the good 20-card village; many were bad, some have potential but were no good for a 20-card pile, and some got tried out. In the end I did Village Green for this slot.

[BBobb]

I'm going to attempt something really silly, probably broken (and untested on top of that)! I might withdraw it in the situation where the good people of this forum makes it really obvious to me that it's broken/not working as intended . Anyway, here goes nothing:

     

Institute can be a non-terminal Smithy if it draws you 3 Treasures/Victory cards. Big Money dudes are happy. You start with a deck of 15 cards. 3 turns until the first shuffle instead of 2. Your opening split could be //; or //; or //. Or it could be none of that should you want to trash the junk-y Grants instead of taking their money. If you do, well, your deck is leaner, yay! But adieu, cool opening splits (and adieu 1 too, I guess).

I think that this is a really cool idea. The only thing is, it is almost strictly better than Scout. I don't find it a problem since Scout sucks and is removed, but I just wanted to mention it.

[Mahowrath]

Since Mahowrath updvoted this post, implying that it qualifies, I take it that making your starting deck not 10-cards qualifies?

Yes, to be clear: I've made the ruling that your starting deck can be the not-10-card deck outside of the supply interacted with, if you wish to make a card that alters its starting size.
This wasn't clear either way from the original brief, so I'll add it the main post. Thanks for highlighting this Gubump.