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[MiX]

Wait, I totally forgot scola was the scum that clinched the deal in the Space Gambit game... yeah, THAT's the game I wanted to have to relive...

You asked for it, not me! I am not rereading that game either.

[WestCoastDidds]

Sheesh, we should exile him now because that one still stings....

[Robz888]

We could exile scola just for being terrifying as scum that one time!

[WestCoastDidds]

Stone
Cold
Killer

[SpaceAnemone]

Still here! Apologies for being probably-proddable by now.

Did anyone who's commenting on Ash's situation already point out that there's a whole continuum (ish) of other incentives that aren't as "bastard" as a jester role, but that are mediated by the legacy game points? Like, maybe Ash can have extra points if he arranges a mixile of himself at some point, or something like that. I think there must be a way to phrase it that doesn't actually amount to playing against his faction. I'm not sure how such a game mechanic would fit with being the Chief, but I also think it's not outside the realms of possibility that faust could concoct something that way.

[MiX]

Still here! Apologies for being probably-proddable by now.

Did anyone who's commenting on Ash's situation already point out that there's a whole continuum (ish) of other incentives that aren't as "bastard" as a jester role, but that are mediated by the legacy game points? Like, maybe Ash can have extra points if he arranges a mixile of himself at some point, or something like that. I think there must be a way to phrase it that doesn't actually amount to playing against his faction. I'm not sure how such a game mechanic would fit with being the Chief, but I also think it's not outside the realms of possibility that faust could concoct something that way.

If ash got points for doing this, I think he would've said that. Wouldn't that make us more likely to exile him? But I don't think we should talk about our character arcs...that doesn't seem to help town, and it kinda pits us against each other.

[scolapasta]

Voting me here with no explanation? (or is the fact that I'm suspicious of you and your executive order process (not necessarily the final choice) enough to cast a vote against me?)

If my executive order process leads to the correct conclusion 100% of the time, then it is no different than your so called ideal view of the executive order process.

I'm voting you because I think you're scum: last time you were coasting and generally pushing bad ideas and things that hurt town to think and talk about, and I think you're doing the same thing here.

I disagree that even if it leads to the same result that it is no different. It could be, but the point is the opportunity to possibly learn something useful was there. And you chose to ignore it which to me feels anti town. But if I'm being fair, I don't think that means you're not town, because I would see you doing this and not thinking it was anti-town. So we'll just have to agree to disagree.

What ideas am I pushing that are bad ideas? or hurt town to think and talk about it? I call shenanigans on that.

My central idea:

Knowing flavor it seems to me at least very likely that being a Cylon is highly correlated to being scum, and being human is to being town. Obviously since species is separate than alignment, there will be some outliers, but that doesn't mean that known or suspected Cylons aren't more likely to be a threat. So expressing concern on ash (whom I do believe is currently town) and awaclus seems reasonable.

I just think that if both are cylons, then one will eventually be scum. So if Awaclus is in fact telling the truth*, then I can easily see ash eventually converting (involuntarily, maybe) to scum.

* I just don't see how given two choices that would be relatively equal, one would be penalized so much - making a difficult choice a virtual no brainer. Add to that that mathude was in fact not spared, something is wrong there. Maybe I'm on the wrong path, do you really believe it was all wrapped on in a nice little bow like that?

Of course there's a chance there both not scum. So I'd be fine scum hunting somebody else too while we wait to learn more. But as Dylan pointed out, it's really only the same people posting. So there's very little to go for jack, Robz swowl, WCD, space, EFHW, etc. the list goes on.

So without that, I'm still leaning towards reducing our risk with the probably cylons.

Do you disagree that ash and Awaclus are likely Cylons? or do you disagree that as Cylons that are likely to pose more of a risk than those with unknown species?

[scolapasta]

You ask a lot of questions, but don't answer when people ask you. Why is that?

I'm against revealing information that could help scum (including why I'm voting for them). I don't ask such questions and don't like to answer them either. Other types of questions are fine.

Maybe it's just a style thing then - I think that answering many of the questions you avoid helps town as much, if ont more, as it helps scum.

Because scum needs to deceive to win which leads to more risky behavior; town can just play it safe, generally. At least on early days.

Whoever is winning can play it safe and whoever is losing needs to take risks

. Assuming the game is balanced, there is no reason for town or scum to take or avoid risks on early days.
[/quote]

I'll disagree with this. I think anyone trying to be deceptive (which scum has to) has to worry more about creating a cohesive story, and that entails more risk.

if you're purported switching to scum would have still been worth the same # of points, would you have switched?

Overall, I felt like my chances of winning the game were probably about the same or maybe a bit better if I chose to remain town

I think this gets to my point - if the choice were balanced enough, then why does the "lesser" option offer fewer points, and so many at that? I could imagine 4 instead of 5, or that staying as town would lose points. Also because I think the game design would be more interesting that way. You'd have to sell why you chose the option that gave you fewer points. If the the choice were truly as you say, it's an easy sell, as witnessed by the fact that I seem to be the only one suspicious of this.

[scolapasta]

Crap, didn't realize I hadn't said anything. I'm following along, but with this many people as I'm reading and catching up, every time I have a thought it seems like someone else had already said the thing before I got here, so I'm just having a hard time contributing in general.

In all the games I've played with Awaclus, this might be the first time I've read their posts and just thought they were town. Their usual playstyle (keeping stuff very close to the vest, low info shared) just has always made them hard to read, so this is weird.

I think Ash is probably telling the truth and doing what he thinks is best for town. I disagree with him that exiling him now would be best for town.

Would whoever it was (Swowl maybe?) that referenced scola's last scum game and playstyle drop the game that they were pulling that from? Or scola, just which game were you scum in? I might not have a ton of original thoughts, but I could go read that game to see if that was a fair comparison between the two games and look for other things that might point to scum!scola.

That was a fun game! I might also suggest reading some of my town games too if you're really trying to intrerpret my play style.

[ashersky]

* I just don't see how given two choices that would be relatively equal, one would be penalized so much - making a difficult choice a virtual no brainer. Add to that that mathude was in fact not spared, something is wrong there. Maybe I'm on the wrong path, do you really believe it was all wrapped on in a nice little bow like that?

On this specific comment -- as a long-time mod and game designer, I understand your point there.  I think of it as "if I am going to introduce a decision into the game, if one option is always going to be chosen, does it even need to be a decision?"  If you had a role power that said "choose one: target a player and learn their alignment OR target a player and if they have the ability to NK, it will be disabled" then that seems like an interesting decision.  Maybe cop is favored, but there are ways to use the other one too.  But if the choices are cop or fruit vendor, the fruit vendor option is just so much harder to make useful that, unless you are building mechanics around fruit, it's not a decision worth building into the game.

So, if voluntary alignment switches are present, as Awaclus has claimed happened to him, the player needs to have incentives to do both that are fairly equal, or at least offer good reasons, to make the decision mean something.

[ashersky]

Shameless plug: decisions will present themselves in the upcoming Stargate Mafia, and they will be spicy!

[ashersky]

Still here! Apologies for being probably-proddable by now.

Did anyone who's commenting on Ash's situation already point out that there's a whole continuum (ish) of other incentives that aren't as "bastard" as a jester role, but that are mediated by the legacy game points? Like, maybe Ash can have extra points if he arranges a mixile of himself at some point, or something like that. I think there must be a way to phrase it that doesn't actually amount to playing against his faction. I'm not sure how such a game mechanic would fit with being the Chief, but I also think it's not outside the realms of possibility that faust could concoct something that way.

If ash got points for doing this, I think he would've said that. Wouldn't that make us more likely to exile him? But I don't think we should talk about our character arcs...that doesn't seem to help town, and it kinda pits us against each other.

For what it is worth, my character arc thing has no impact on the game at all (in the sense that if I'm successful or not doesn't actually relate to the game).

[ashersky]

Still here! Apologies for being probably-proddable by now.

Did anyone who's commenting on Ash's situation already point out that there's a whole continuum (ish) of other incentives that aren't as "bastard" as a jester role, but that are mediated by the legacy game points? Like, maybe Ash can have extra points if he arranges a mixile of himself at some point, or something like that. I think there must be a way to phrase it that doesn't actually amount to playing against his faction. I'm not sure how such a game mechanic would fit with being the Chief, but I also think it's not outside the realms of possibility that faust could concoct something that way.

I like this line of thinking (again, as a game designer), but it is hard to implement.  If I'm town and I actively work for a mis-exile for my own personal gain (as opposed to helping town, which is what I'm doing), there needs to be a corresponding benefit to town.

Now, could that corresponding benefit be "removes a Cylon from the game who could become mafia on Day 3" or something?  Yes!  Is that the case here?  Dunno.  I do not have information that supports any specific theories on how or when I will become mafia.

So, I am working for my own mis-exile solely for the benefit of town, which has a corresponding benefit for me (a win, and the points that come with that).

[ashersky]

Lets exile someone.

Definitely.  Choose the person who is closest to exile and vote for them.

[MiX]

Still here! Apologies for being probably-proddable by now.

Did anyone who's commenting on Ash's situation already point out that there's a whole continuum (ish) of other incentives that aren't as "bastard" as a jester role, but that are mediated by the legacy game points? Like, maybe Ash can have extra points if he arranges a mixile of himself at some point, or something like that. I think there must be a way to phrase it that doesn't actually amount to playing against his faction. I'm not sure how such a game mechanic would fit with being the Chief, but I also think it's not outside the realms of possibility that faust could concoct something that way.

I like this line of thinking (again, as a game designer), but it is hard to implement.  If I'm town and I actively work for a mis-exile for my own personal gain (as opposed to helping town, which is what I'm doing), there needs to be a corresponding benefit to town.

Now, could that corresponding benefit be "removes a Cylon from the game who could become mafia on Day 3" or something?  Yes!  Is that the case here?  Dunno.  I do not have information that supports any specific theories on how or when I will become mafia.

So, I am working for my own mis-exile solely for the benefit of town, which has a corresponding benefit for me (a win, and the points that come with that).

But why does it help town to exile town? I'm really not seeing this.

[ashersky]

Cool, so that's settled then. Can we go back to playing the game now?

Isn't it settled that I am right?  Faust confirmed involuntary alignment changes can happen.  I would take his answers to mean that I am definitely town-aligned for as long as that is the only information I have, but that I may not always be town-aligned, and I may have no control over that.

quote-ish "the game cannot contain alignment changes that you are unaware of". have you been told you are town? cool. You are town. If you are skum... change to skum... whatever... you will be informed. That is black and white from faust's answer.

I guess I just don't get your concern? you are Town as you say. and it is 100% clear you will be informed if that changes.

This is me agreeing with mix (weird but true). It is no different than anyone else. You just have the spotlight rn. If you are town with a chance that you can become skum... you play for town. if you don't, then either you have additional information or your primary objective is not to win.

I agree with you that I am town right now (assuming faust hasn't told me I am now mafia).  My prior worry about being mafia without knowing it may not have been clear.  If I am "trigger-able" for lack of a better word, then I am actually a threat to town, not an asset.  If mafia can flip my alignment, against my will no less, you can't leave me around to affect the numbers.  An exiled town is 1 million percent better than an additional mafia.  Right?

Random numbers:  10 players, 3 mafia, 7 town.  You are given a choice:  Tomorrow, there are 3 mafia and 6 town OR there are 4 mafia and 6 town.

These are literally the only choices to consider here when it comes to exiling a player who can be flipped.

Hence my argument that removing players from the game that we know are highly likely to be a threat to town even though they may be town-aligned is important.  Besides, you only have my word to go on that I'm town-aligned.

Unless you think I'm a Jester, or there's a Jester mechanic for overall arcs, I don't understand why no one supports me.  Run it through from town!ash and non-town!ash perspectives.  There are no scenarios where I'm doing this to hurt town.

1. lol on timing was gonna actually bring up Jester concept last night, but fairly certain that is a BM role
2. OK I agree with your logic. Except for the fact that you are leaving out the 3rd option, which is the option to pick 100% of the time as Town... or at least attempt to pick

Option 3 - 10 players, 7 town 3 mafia alive you are given a choice... tomorrow it is 6-3 or 6-4 by your logic.... false... we lynch skum today and it changes everything.

Just a fancy way of saying that while I think you have a point, it is not good enough for me to vote someone that is most likely town rather than attempt to exile skum.

My examples there were specifically if the game state didn't change via exile.  I guess we can expand on the 10 alive, 7v3 scenario:

--mis-exile normal town, NK, conversion: 4 v 4 the next day, game over
--no exile, NK, conversion: 5 v 4 the next day
--mis-exile normal town, NK, no conversion: 5 v 3 the next day
--mis-exile convertible town, NK: 5 v 3 the day day
--exile mafia, NK, conversion: 5 v 3 the next day
--no exile, NK, no conversion: 6 v 3 the next day
--exile mafia, NK, no conversion: 6 v 2 the next day

So, these options cover all probably outcomes, then, in order of worst to best case.  So, then, your options?

1) Take action to ensure the worst case scenario cannot happen, or
2) Take action to try to have the best case scenario happen

[ashersky]

Still here! Apologies for being probably-proddable by now.

Did anyone who's commenting on Ash's situation already point out that there's a whole continuum (ish) of other incentives that aren't as "bastard" as a jester role, but that are mediated by the legacy game points? Like, maybe Ash can have extra points if he arranges a mixile of himself at some point, or something like that. I think there must be a way to phrase it that doesn't actually amount to playing against his faction. I'm not sure how such a game mechanic would fit with being the Chief, but I also think it's not outside the realms of possibility that faust could concoct something that way.

I like this line of thinking (again, as a game designer), but it is hard to implement.  If I'm town and I actively work for a mis-exile for my own personal gain (as opposed to helping town, which is what I'm doing), there needs to be a corresponding benefit to town.

Now, could that corresponding benefit be "removes a Cylon from the game who could become mafia on Day 3" or something?  Yes!  Is that the case here?  Dunno.  I do not have information that supports any specific theories on how or when I will become mafia.

So, I am working for my own mis-exile solely for the benefit of town, which has a corresponding benefit for me (a win, and the points that come with that).

But why does it help town to exile town? I'm really not seeing this.

I just posted an explanation to your question, which I was working on while you posted.

[scolapasta]

* I just don't see how given two choices that would be relatively equal, one would be penalized so much - making a difficult choice a virtual no brainer. Add to that that mathude was in fact not spared, something is wrong there. Maybe I'm on the wrong path, do you really believe it was all wrapped on in a nice little bow like that?

On this specific comment -- as a long-time mod and game designer, I understand your point there.  I think of it as "if I am going to introduce a decision into the game, if one option is always going to be chosen, does it even need to be a decision?"  If you had a role power that said "choose one: target a player and learn their alignment OR target a player and if they have the ability to NK, it will be disabled" then that seems like an interesting decision.  Maybe cop is favored, but there are ways to use the other one too.  But if the choices are cop or fruit vendor, the fruit vendor option is just so much harder to make useful that, unless you are building mechanics around fruit, it's not a decision worth building into the game.

So, if voluntary alignment switches are present, as Awaclus has claimed happened to him, the player needs to have incentives to do both that are fairly equal, or at least offer good reasons, to make the decision mean something.

Thanks.

Would you agree that, as presented by Awaclus, the options seemed mismatched? Or am I the only one?

Also, thoughts on my theory that if there are starting two town Cylons, then there's a decent chance that circumstances will have one or the other become scum?

[ashersky]

I would point out that there are three options with the same net result in my scenario.  Mis-exiling me gives the same result as a correct exile and ensure a worse outcome doesn't happen.

[ashersky]

* I just don't see how given two choices that would be relatively equal, one would be penalized so much - making a difficult choice a virtual no brainer. Add to that that mathude was in fact not spared, something is wrong there. Maybe I'm on the wrong path, do you really believe it was all wrapped on in a nice little bow like that?

On this specific comment -- as a long-time mod and game designer, I understand your point there.  I think of it as "if I am going to introduce a decision into the game, if one option is always going to be chosen, does it even need to be a decision?"  If you had a role power that said "choose one: target a player and learn their alignment OR target a player and if they have the ability to NK, it will be disabled" then that seems like an interesting decision.  Maybe cop is favored, but there are ways to use the other one too.  But if the choices are cop or fruit vendor, the fruit vendor option is just so much harder to make useful that, unless you are building mechanics around fruit, it's not a decision worth building into the game.

So, if voluntary alignment switches are present, as Awaclus has claimed happened to him, the player needs to have incentives to do both that are fairly equal, or at least offer good reasons, to make the decision mean something.

Thanks.

Would you agree that, as presented by Awaclus, the options seemed mismatched? Or am I the only one?

Also, thoughts on my theory that if there are starting two town Cylons, then there's a decent chance that circumstances will have one or the other become scum?

I clearly think town Cylons can/will become mafia.  I'm trying to exile one.

Eh, Awaclus's explanations of the options didn't strike me as way off.  I'm sure he's leaving stuff out.  Also don't know the impact on character arc, which is another factor here.

I think he's just making the whole thing up or telling a partial truth.

[MiX]

My examples there were specifically if the game state didn't change via exile.  I guess we can expand on the 10 alive, 7v3 scenario:

--mis-exile normal town, NK, conversion: 4 v 4 the next day, game over
--no exile, NK, conversion: 5 v 4 the next day
--mis-exile normal town, NK, no conversion: 5 v 3 the next day
--mis-exile convertible town, NK: 5 v 3 the day day
--exile mafia, NK, conversion: 5 v 3 the next day
--no exile, NK, no conversion: 6 v 3 the next day
--exile mafia, NK, no conversion: 6 v 2 the next day

So, these options cover all probably outcomes, then, in order of worst to best case.  So, then, your options?

1) Take action to ensure the worst case scenario cannot happen, or
2) Take action to try to have the best case scenario happen

This is a false dichotomy: we should do neither of those things. We should...exile scum. Why on earth would this game change something as simple as that?

I would point out that there are three options with the same net result in my scenario.  Mis-exiling me gives the same result as a correct exile and ensure a worse outcome doesn't happen.

Stop. Counting. Results. Individually. Without a probability mapping of each scenario, counting up how many scenarios does this help town in is pointless. It merely serves as a distraction and it pushes scum narratives.

Vote: Space for not having actually talked about anything and only put forward a NAI thing (which is arguably a scum thing). And I guess scola can be town.

[MiX]

I clearly think town Cylons can/will become mafia.  I'm trying to exile one.

Awaclus is more likely to be a Cylon than you. Who are you voting?

[scolapasta]

OK, I'm ready to jump aboard the:

Vote: ash

wagon. I'm also ready to switch to Awaclus, based on everything I've said, but mostly want to avoid getting too late in the day and the crickets like we had D1. We don't haver the advantage of a Curfew to scare scum away from a NK. (assuming that it was that, and they weren't just blocked or stopped).

[EFHW]

faust said arc goals would be consistent with wincon. So shouldn't Awaclus have been offered a new goal if he chose scum?

Also, sid Awaclus need to say anything? I'll have to check later.

[Swowl]

OK, I'm ready to jump aboard the:

Vote: ash

wagon. I'm also ready to switch to Awaclus, based on everything I've said, but mostly want to avoid getting too late in the day and the crickets like we had D1. We don't haver the advantage of a Curfew to scare scum away from a NK. (assuming that it was that, and they weren't just blocked or stopped).

please give me a reason either of those people are skum. no sarcasm. everyone is talking, me included, about why they are not skum. why do you think they are?