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[WestCoastDidds]

Was there a time you didn't believe Awaclus, Swowl? I felt like he was being forthcoming.

I am not sure how I feel about exiling Ashersky.

I am puzzled about why LaLi needs to have a cylon alive to win, and its messing with my head.

[ashersky]

ash, did the wiki not say that your character was a cylon? We've been pretty clear from the start that cylon/human identity does not necessarily correspond to cylon/human alignment. The civilian/military thing is odd, but maybe faust deviated from canon for modding reasons. Or he made a mistake.

It did not.  I was very confused by Jack Rudd's explanation, so I found a new wiki.

Fyi your character is (spoiler alert) a cylon in the show but in terms of their "allegiance" would definitely be called human-aligned (from what I remember)

wait, is this accurate? I don't remember him being a cylon.

He's one of the Final Five; his being a cylon is revealed at the end of Season 3.

Is this from a different show?  I may have been on a miniseries focused page.

[ashersky]

This is the background I read:

Galen Tyrol, often referred to as "Chief", is the highest ranking NCO remaining aboard Galactica. He served aboard battlestars from the age of eighteen, including Columbia, Atlantia, and Pegasus (Resistance). He has served under William Adama on Galactica for five years (Litmus), and has considerable respect for the Commander - a feeling that is reciprocated. Indeed, he admires Adama to such a degree that he has modeled his own style of leadership on that of Adama: firm, fair, and willing to go to the fullest degree in support of his crew.

However, when people under his responsibility are injured, threatened or killed, Tyrol becomes rather irrational, angry, and reckless in his actions, to the point of further endangering his people or his reputation with senior officers. Prime examples of his lack of emotional control includes the scenes before the ship venting after the nuke hit and cursing Tigh in front of Commander Adama for the vent and loss of 85 of his people (Miniseries), and saving a mortally-wounded crewmate while leaving himself and Cally Henderson highly vulnerable in "Scattered". Tyrol's tryst with Sharon Valerii and a subsequent cover-up attempt in "Litmus" resulted in the jailing of Specialist Socinus, who was trying to protect Tyrol.

Originally leading Deck Crew 5, a team of 15 deckhands and specialists, since the Cylon attack he has become the most senior and experienced NCO on Galactica.

This is from a different, longer wiki I found just now, but basically is a copy/paste from the other.  I was actually working off of the wikipedia article on Galen.  I do see that in the wall of text, there is reference to the Five stuff.  That's my mistake in not reading all the way through, especially given my own thinking that it was important to do the research.

I assumed that having parents and being born and all that would preclude being a Cylon.  Having not watched the show, I did not know that Cylons were born the same way humans were, with parents and what not.  I thought they were like robots, manufactured and such.

So, much of my reaction was based on an incorrect understanding of my flavor character.  I still think exile is the best option.

[ashersky]

A note for writes of fan wiki entries: perhaps put the most important information about a character in the beginning.

[ashersky]

Cool, so that's settled then. Can we go back to playing the game now?

Isn't it settled that I am right?  Faust confirmed involuntary alignment changes can happen.  I would take his answers to mean that I am definitely town-aligned for as long as that is the only information I have, but that I may not always be town-aligned, and I may have no control over that.

[MiX]

I assumed that having parents and being born and all that would preclude being a Cylon.  Having not watched the show, I did not know that Cylons were born the same way humans were, with parents and what not.  I thought they were like robots, manufactured and such.

(Spoilers) The backstory is made up, and even Galen believes it's true. In the show, he doesn't know he's a cylon until later.

I don't think we should exile anyone with Galen as their character. That seems...irrational.

Now, as Awaclus said, we could start playing the game now. Does anyone know where to start? Cause I don't.

Cool, so that's settled then. Can we go back to playing the game now?

Isn't it settled that I am right?  Faust confirmed involuntary alignment changes can happen.  I would take his answers to mean that I am definitely town-aligned for as long as that is the only information I have, but that I may not always be town-aligned, and I may have no control over that.

Isn't this true for everyone though? What makes you special?

[Swowl]

Was there a time you didn't believe Awaclus, Swowl? I felt like he was being forthcoming.

I am not sure how I feel about exiling Ashersky.

Yes. Forthcoming for Awaclus is super weird, so was pretty hesitant straight from the get go on that one. more of the "back of my mind concern.

[Swowl]

Cool, so that's settled then. Can we go back to playing the game now?

Isn't it settled that I am right?  Faust confirmed involuntary alignment changes can happen.  I would take his answers to mean that I am definitely town-aligned for as long as that is the only information I have, but that I may not always be town-aligned, and I may have no control over that.

quote-ish "the game cannot contain alignment changes that you are unaware of". have you been told you are town? cool. You are town. If you are skum... change to skum... whatever... you will be informed. That is black and white from faust's answer.

I guess I just don't get your concern? you are Town as you say. and it is 100% clear you will be informed if that changes.

This is me agreeing with mix (weird but true). It is no different than anyone else. You just have the spotlight rn. If you are town with a chance that you can become skum... you play for town. if you don't, then either you have additional information or your primary objective is not to win.

[Swowl]

+++
or you are confused - don't want to single anyone out, that should be added in.
but also, ash isn't confused.

[Swowl]

MiX - it is day 2. you said you would expand on the plan Day 2. You wanna talk about something, why not start there?

[Robz888]

I think a lot of people are getting unnecessarily confused. And I don't actually think it's that confusing!

Background: In Battlestar Galactica, there are two species: humans and Cylons. Humans are just humans. Cylons come in two kinds: Hulking killer machines called Centurions (think Terminator) and the kind that looks like people. There are 12 types of the people kind: All of these Cylons look like one of the 12. Five of the 12 are the Final Five, they are like the creators of all Cylons and there's only one copy of each. The other 7 form the basis of Cylon society, all the Cylons look like one of the 7. Sometimes our heroes figure out someone is a Cylon when they run across the person more than once: If there's another copy of a person, they are one of the 7!

Okay, none of that is particularly important. The important thing is that in the show, many of the Cylons don't know they are Cylons. Some copies are deliberately mind-wiped and sent among the humans to cause problems. The Final Five were all mind-wiped by the guy who is Cylon Model #1, for revenge.

Also, not all Cylons are evil, or working to advance the goals of the Cylons. Many of them end up aligned with the humans!

Okay, let's talk about this game. Obviously, faust would not set it up so that the exact same characters are Cylons, or that the exact same characters are Cylon-aligned. If that were the case, we would just mass flavor claim, game over. So I assume that just because you are playing a character who was a Cylon on the show does not automatically mean you are a Cylon here. That's what I was thinking, at least. If this is not the case, then I assume the mafia have fake claims?

Ash's character, Galen, is a Cylon, but is not Cylon-aligned, in BSG.

[scolapasta]

Catching up slowly.

A few thoughts:

• Turning points. It seems clear our D2 turning point was the addition of an executive order. I'd assumed that turning points would likely be anti town, but good to know they are not.

• ash being a Cylon. I've only played with ash a few games but he seems like he's smart and willing to try crazy things. I don't put it past him to be scum, suspect he is a cylon, and so want to get the test for that reason. Either is shows him as human, we he can sell as town, or as Cylon and then he plays the exile me story, knowing we won't. I'm not saying I think this is the case, but I do think it should stay on everyone's radar.

I am not opposed to exiling ash. I do think flavor wise it would make sense that those who's alignment can switch are more likely to be Cylons than humans. So generally I'd be more willing to trust a human than a cylon. I'll be the first to admit that this might be flavor bias. But there's got to be a reason there's a theme, right?

I am still wary of Awaclus. Like I tried saying before, but was dismissed with a "you're just repeating what I said" I find it suspicious that his choosing scum would lead to two fewer points. I think the best lies are surrounded by truth so I could very well see a good player like Awaclus revealing everything truthfully, except adding this small tidbit as a reason why he chose town, only to secretly having chosen scum.

At the very least, I'd suspect that Awaclus is a Cylon as well as ash, and as a balancing aspect of the game that one of them would become scum at some point. So if not Awaclus, then Ash; or vice versa.

Also, I do think Mix's choice of executive order was at least somewhat anti-town. Even if it is pro mix, again there are 72 hours to choose. A town move would've been to wait to see how the cylon detector worked out before choosing an order. (I guess this depends on what the other choices were of course, but if we assume the other D1 orders were discarded, there's a 75% chance the new order would've been one of the three.

[Awaclus]

I am still wary of Awaclus. Like I tried saying before, but was dismissed with a "you're just repeating what I said" I find it suspicious that his choosing scum would lead to two fewer points. I think the best lies are surrounded by truth so I could very well see a good player like Awaclus revealing everything truthfully, except adding this small tidbit as a reason why he chose town, only to secretly having chosen scum.

It would lead to three fewer points. The difference between 5 points and 2 points is not 2.

[ashersky]

I think a lot of people are getting unnecessarily confused. And I don't actually think it's that confusing!

Background: In Battlestar Galactica, there are two species: humans and Cylons. Humans are just humans. Cylons come in two kinds: Hulking killer machines called Centurions (think Terminator) and the kind that looks like people. There are 12 types of the people kind: All of these Cylons look like one of the 12. Five of the 12 are the Final Five, they are like the creators of all Cylons and there's only one copy of each. The other 7 form the basis of Cylon society, all the Cylons look like one of the 7. Sometimes our heroes figure out someone is a Cylon when they run across the person more than once: If there's another copy of a person, they are one of the 7!

Okay, none of that is particularly important. The important thing is that in the show, many of the Cylons don't know they are Cylons. Some copies are deliberately mind-wiped and sent among the humans to cause problems. The Final Five were all mind-wiped by the guy who is Cylon Model #1, for revenge.

Also, not all Cylons are evil, or working to advance the goals of the Cylons. Many of them end up aligned with the humans!

Okay, let's talk about this game. Obviously, faust would not set it up so that the exact same characters are Cylons, or that the exact same characters are Cylon-aligned. If that were the case, we would just mass flavor claim, game over. So I assume that just because you are playing a character who was a Cylon on the show does not automatically mean you are a Cylon here. That's what I was thinking, at least. If this is not the case, then I assume the mafia have fake claims?

Ash's character, Galen, is a Cylon, but is not Cylon-aligned, in BSG.

This is a very useful explanation of the flavor.  Thank you.

[ashersky]

• ash being a Cylon. I've only played with ash a few games but he seems like he's smart and willing to try crazy things. I don't put it past him to be scum, suspect he is a cylon, and so want to get the test for that reason. Either is shows him as human, we he can sell as town, or as Cylon and then he plays the exile me story, knowing we won't. I'm not saying I think this is the case, but I do think it should stay on everyone's radar.

This is a good point to raise.  I think I see it coming most often from my mafia partners, not from town.

Also, after reading more wiki pages, it appears my reaction to finding out I was a Cylon was a pretty good approximation of the actual character arc on the show.  Fear, disbelief, suicidal tendencies, etc.  I guess I could have planned all of that as well.

I think scola is a good exile option after me, regardless of my flip.

[ashersky]

Cool, so that's settled then. Can we go back to playing the game now?

Isn't it settled that I am right?  Faust confirmed involuntary alignment changes can happen.  I would take his answers to mean that I am definitely town-aligned for as long as that is the only information I have, but that I may not always be town-aligned, and I may have no control over that.

quote-ish "the game cannot contain alignment changes that you are unaware of". have you been told you are town? cool. You are town. If you are skum... change to skum... whatever... you will be informed. That is black and white from faust's answer.

I guess I just don't get your concern? you are Town as you say. and it is 100% clear you will be informed if that changes.

This is me agreeing with mix (weird but true). It is no different than anyone else. You just have the spotlight rn. If you are town with a chance that you can become skum... you play for town. if you don't, then either you have additional information or your primary objective is not to win.

I agree with you that I am town right now (assuming faust hasn't told me I am now mafia).  My prior worry about being mafia without knowing it may not have been clear.  If I am "trigger-able" for lack of a better word, then I am actually a threat to town, not an asset.  If mafia can flip my alignment, against my will no less, you can't leave me around to affect the numbers.  An exiled town is 1 million percent better than an additional mafia.  Right?

Random numbers:  10 players, 3 mafia, 7 town.  You are given a choice:  Tomorrow, there are 3 mafia and 6 town OR there are 4 mafia and 6 town.

These are literally the only choices to consider here when it comes to exiling a player who can be flipped.

Hence my argument that removing players from the game that we know are highly likely to be a threat to town even though they may be town-aligned is important.  Besides, you only have my word to go on that I'm town-aligned.

Unless you think I'm a Jester, or there's a Jester mechanic for overall arcs, I don't understand why no one supports me.  Run it through from town!ash and non-town!ash perspectives.  There are no scenarios where I'm doing this to hurt town.

[faust]

Vote Count 2.2

ashersky (1): ashersky

Not Voting (12): Jack Rudd, SpaceAnemone, WestCoastDidds, MiX, EFHW, scolapasta, LaLight, Dylan32, A Drowned Kernel, Swowl, Robz888, Awaclus

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 2 ends April 03, 2021, 06:00:00 am.

[ashersky]

I'll do it for you (declining to accept Jester mechanics in a non-BM game):

--Any solo 3rd party: would need to live to win, unless can align with a major faction, so probably is NOT solo 3rd party
--Any non-town multi-member faction: early in the game to self-sacrifice, losing numbers hurts the faction here, the faction gains zero cred.  Some mechanics could exist where a member of the faction being exiled results in gains for the others secretly, like more shots, extra NKs, etc.  If this is your major worry, I'd wonder why you are having those thoughts.
--Town: Explanations line up with town thinking, even disregarding the flavor confusion.

Did I miss anything?  We have three general options during the day:

--exile non-town players
--mis-exile town players
--exile town players who actively pose a threat to town even if they don't want to

Options 1 and 2 are judgement/reads-based, as we have no results to consider.  Option 3 is at least a guaranteed net positive for town, right?

[ashersky]

I'll ask it another way:

For players who do are not convinced I am town, why wouldn't you exile a mafia read?
For players who do read me as town, why wouldn't you believe me or support me?

[ashersky]

I assumed that having parents and being born and all that would preclude being a Cylon.  Having not watched the show, I did not know that Cylons were born the same way humans were, with parents and what not.  I thought they were like robots, manufactured and such.

(Spoilers) The backstory is made up, and even Galen believes it's true. In the show, he doesn't know he's a cylon until later.

I don't think we should exile anyone with Galen as their character. That seems...irrational.

Now, as Awaclus said, we could start playing the game now. Does anyone know where to start? Cause I don't.

Cool, so that's settled then. Can we go back to playing the game now?

Isn't it settled that I am right?  Faust confirmed involuntary alignment changes can happen.  I would take his answers to mean that I am definitely town-aligned for as long as that is the only information I have, but that I may not always be town-aligned, and I may have no control over that.

Isn't this true for everyone though? What makes you special?

Why is it irrational to exile Galen specifically?

I am special because we have the Cylon result from the thing today.  That is a data point we have on only me.  It is unique to me.  That makes me special.  So yes, the general statement can be true for all players, but is much more likely true for me, given the additional information we have.

I mean, imagine a mafia power that says "target a player -- if they are a Cylon, they will share your alignment."  Pretty straightforward, easy to implement, sensible, could balance a small faction starting size, etc.

They know I'm (probably) a Cylon.  Take me out before that can happen, man.

[ashersky]

Was there a time you didn't believe Awaclus, Swowl? I felt like he was being forthcoming.

I am not sure how I feel about exiling Ashersky.

I am puzzled about why LaLi needs to have a cylon alive to win, and its messing with my head.

Are you puzzled because of flavor stuff?

"Not sure" is close enough to "okay with it" to vote.

[Awaclus]

I'll ask it another way:

For players who do are not convinced I am town, why wouldn't you exile a mafia read?
For players who do read me as town, why wouldn't you believe me or support me?

You are cherry picking options here. You've considered these options:

1) You're scum and playing like an idiot, so it would be in town's best interests to go with your plan and exile you
2) You're town and know what you're doing, so it would be in town's best interests to go with your plan and exile you

You've excluded these options:

3) You're scum and know what you're doing, so it would hurt town to go with your plan and exile you
4) You're town and playing like an idiot, so it would hurt town to go with your plan and exile you

[MiX]

Why is it irrational to exile Galen specifically?

I am special because we have the Cylon result from the thing today.  That is a data point we have on only me.  It is unique to me.  That makes me special.  So yes, the general statement can be true for all players, but is much more likely true for me, given the additional information we have.

I mean, imagine a mafia power that says "target a player -- if they are a Cylon, they will share your alignment."  Pretty straightforward, easy to implement, sensible, could balance a small faction starting size, etc.

They know I'm (probably) a Cylon.  Take me out before that can happen, man.

Because exiling based on flavor name does not catch scum. And I'm townreading you.

The cylon testing machine is arbitrary: we should honestly ignore it for today. It's meaningless unless someone has a way to make it certain. Playing probabilities with faust is not the way to go here.

That power is a bit bastard, don't you think? Although I can't really rule it out from the realm of possibilities...

They know nothing, because the testing machine is arbitrary. Will they pick you with that hypothetical ability? Maybe. Will it work? Who knows.


Vote: scola, I don't know...does anyone know if Dylan is in VLA? They haven't talked today.

[MiX]

Also, I do think Mix's choice of executive order was at least somewhat anti-town. Even if it is pro mix, again there are 72 hours to choose. A town move would've been to wait to see how the cylon detector worked out before choosing an order. (I guess this depends on what the other choices were of course, but if we assume the other D1 orders were discarded, there's a 75% chance the new order would've been one of the three.

Would you have preferred me to force who was tested? I would've simply picked ash, as he wanted it. I can see military police force be a better order now, but I wasn't given that option.

[LaLight]

DatSwan is weirdly silent, I remember him being more vocal. I actually forgot he's in the game