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[ashersky]

Safe to assume it isn't, given how much I'm asking about it.

I assume nothing. Things are complicated enough.

Touche!

I am making an explicit point that it is not hypothetical.

[LaLight]

So let me get the big idea straight...

We are all either human or cylon but as far as I can tell, none of us currently knows which even we are ourselves, let alone others. But this doesn't seem to matter, at least not yet.

We are all either civilian or military. As president, I'm civilian. This distinction wil likely have effects on the game (e.g. if I'm exiled and incoming VP is military, it triggers a turning point). But this isn't the typical mafia game alignments of mafia or town.

Then we are either town-aligned or cylon-aligned... different than the first point above. This is the actual mafia-town distinction we are used to. We all are either human-aligned, or pretending that we are human-aligned, as per usual mafia games.

Also, we each have a character, with a character arc that can affect things. Whether they have abilities or other goals in mind, this adds complexity.

On top of that, I also have a role of president with additional effects (such as choosing from the deck). And MiX is VP. But those seem to be the only extra roles (at least right now).

Can someone either confirm or correct me that these are the basic things I need to pull out of game intro, as compared to a normal game.

i had no idea scum is called "cylon-aligned" vote: mathdude

[LaLight]

Also, I think we should vote for the players who have confirmed that "cylon-aligned" is the mafia alignment, given that isn't public information and I had no clue.

yup

[LaLight]

Also, also, everyone focused on the wrong part of my question (human/cylon).   I guess my analogy was closer to that.

Imagine you are playing a WWII-themed game.  Your receive "It is 1944.  You are a civilian.  Your flavor name is General MacArthur."  How do you reconcile that?

If I was playing a WWII themed game were some players were civilians and some were military and that fact was independent of alignment, I would assume MacArthur was military. If I received that PM, I guess I would assume that either the GM was doing something very odd with the flavor or the game was bastard

The confusion that I think needs to be cleared up with the "human/cylon" thing is that the terms are being used in this game to refer to two aspects of people's roles, their alignment and their "species". A player's species could be Cylon but their alignment could be human and vice-versa. If you want to go back to the WWII analogy, imagine a game where players have alignments of Allies and Axis as well as "nationalities" that are independent. So you could have a character that was "German" but whose alignment was "Allies"

Bolding the issue.

There are stuff related to our roles.  There is human OR cylon, irrespective of alignment.  There is military OR civilian, irrespective of alignment.  And there is a flavor name.

Do all three of these need to match?  As explained by others, since plenty of Cylons don't know they are Cylons in the show, no issues there.  But man, it's hard to be in the military and not know it.

I just googled "BSG wiki" and clicked the first link, then scrolled to the first character that appeared, which was Kara Thrace.  Per the wiki, Kara was a Viper pilot (whatever that is) in the Colonial Fleet.  That would make Kara Thrace a member of the military.

If a player's PM assigned them both Kara and "civilian," what does that mean?  What does it say about the setup?  What does it mean for how we understand claims?

imo 1) military/civilian is just a part of a flavor name that gives additional functions
2) in future games a military person can retire and a civilian may enter military for all we know

that's why it's here

[Swowl]

That is MiX, Robz, and mathdude, btw.
*snip*

Interesting. I was giving this no credit at first, but I assume these are what you were talking about:

You can probably be a human and be cylon-aligned, and you can probably be a cylon and be human-aligned. The mere fact we don't know if we're human or cylon says that they're separate from alignment, although there's at least 1 cylon-aligned cylon, so being a cylon should be scummy.

Then we are either town-aligned or cylon-aligned... different than the first point above. This is the actual mafia-town distinction we are used to. We all are either human-aligned, or pretending that we are human-aligned, as per usual mafia games.

It seems like this has been explained a thousand times already, but in case it isn't clear: In Battlestar Galactica, there are humans who are human-aligned and Cylons who are Cylon-aligned, but there are also quite a few Cylons who are human-aligned (like, half the cylons by the end of the show!) and at least one human who is for a long time Cylon-aligned.

So, you do not know if you are human or Cylon. So your theory here is it is skummy that they referred to "Cylon-aligned" in comparison to "human aligned" when all we know is there is "human-aligned"?
If so, I get what you are saying, but my issue would be:

1. Mix/Robz doesn't fuck that up.
2. Mathdude said they didn't know the flavor... and I agree with you on the suspicion of Mix/Math... but with mix off the table it is kind of a reach, as I am more inclined to just chalk it up to Math reading the wiki and seeing the cylons are the bad guys.

I get the suspicion I guess, but I guess my question is - Do you really think you caught 3 skum right here all making the same mistake?

[ashersky]

imo 1) military/civilian is just a part of a flavor name that gives additional functions
2) in future games a military person can retire and a civilian may enter military for all we know

that's why it's here

These are true statements, but that's why I worry about the inconsistency of application.

I am taking civilian in this game to mean "not a member of the military" and military to mean "member of the military."

There is a clear difference between a member of the military and a civilian (in general terms).  Someone who retires then becomes a veteran and a civilian again.  If such actions are possible over the arc of this series of games, then a player's military/civilian status should change along with the flavor character.

I get that civilian/military is a thing for the president/VP mechanic.  If that's the only reason, not making it align with flavor names seems odd, but I guess okay if there's a numerical or other reason for it.

If there are more reasons for civ/mil outside of the president/VP mechanics, like powers that only affect one or the other, can't affect one or the other, etc. etc. etc., again I get it's use.  The confusion comes when you have a flavor name that is clearly one or the other and an assignment of the opposite for the player themselves.

I have yet to figure out a reasons for why that might be done.  To force awkward claims as an additional technical challenge?  "Hey, I'm Sgt. Pepper but I'm actually a civilian, not lying, promise!" sorts of stuff?

What if it is the key to unlocking the secrets of the universe (or at least for catching mafia)?

[ashersky]

That is MiX, Robz, and mathdude, btw.
*snip*

Interesting. I was giving this no credit at first, but I assume these are what you were talking about:

You can probably be a human and be cylon-aligned, and you can probably be a cylon and be human-aligned. The mere fact we don't know if we're human or cylon says that they're separate from alignment, although there's at least 1 cylon-aligned cylon, so being a cylon should be scummy.

Then we are either town-aligned or cylon-aligned... different than the first point above. This is the actual mafia-town distinction we are used to. We all are either human-aligned, or pretending that we are human-aligned, as per usual mafia games.

It seems like this has been explained a thousand times already, but in case it isn't clear: In Battlestar Galactica, there are humans who are human-aligned and Cylons who are Cylon-aligned, but there are also quite a few Cylons who are human-aligned (like, half the cylons by the end of the show!) and at least one human who is for a long time Cylon-aligned.

So, you do not know if you are human or Cylon. So your theory here is it is skummy that they referred to "Cylon-aligned" in comparison to "human aligned" when all we know is there is "human-aligned"?
If so, I get what you are saying, but my issue would be:

1. Mix/Robz doesn't fuck that up.
2. Mathdude said they didn't know the flavor... and I agree with you on the suspicion of Mix/Math... but with mix off the table it is kind of a reach, as I am more inclined to just chalk it up to Math reading the wiki and seeing the cylons are the bad guys.

I get the suspicion I guess, but I guess my question is - Do you really think you caught 3 skum right here all making the same mistake?

In backward order -- of course I caught 3 mafia with one move.  It's me we're talking about here.

MiX's post is absolutely the worst.  How does he know there is "at least 1 cylon-aligned cylon" in the game?  No one, and I mean NO ONE should know that, right?  Even mafia don't know if they are human or cylon, per the rules.  Hence, most likely to make this sort of statement is a player who is intimately aware of some cylon alignment and at least one flavor name within it that is a cylon on the show.

Robz is the least worst of the posts, as it's clearly focused on flavor itself.

[faust]

Vote Count 1.3

Dylan32 (1): A Drowned Kernel
ashersky (1): mathdude
Robz888 (1): EFHW
Awaclus (1): MiX
MiX (1): ashersky

Not Voting (9): Jack Rudd, SpaceAnemone, WestCoastDidds, scolapasta, LaLight, Dylan32, Swowl, Robz888, Awaclus

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to exile. Day 1 ends March 23, 2021, 03:30:00 am.

[mathdude]

That is MiX, Robz, and mathdude, btw.
*snip*

Interesting. I was giving this no credit at first, but I assume these are what you were talking about:

You can probably be a human and be cylon-aligned, and you can probably be a cylon and be human-aligned. The mere fact we don't know if we're human or cylon says that they're separate from alignment, although there's at least 1 cylon-aligned cylon, so being a cylon should be scummy.

Then we are either town-aligned or cylon-aligned... different than the first point above. This is the actual mafia-town distinction we are used to. We all are either human-aligned, or pretending that we are human-aligned, as per usual mafia games.

It seems like this has been explained a thousand times already, but in case it isn't clear: In Battlestar Galactica, there are humans who are human-aligned and Cylons who are Cylon-aligned, but there are also quite a few Cylons who are human-aligned (like, half the cylons by the end of the show!) and at least one human who is for a long time Cylon-aligned.

So, you do not know if you are human or Cylon. So your theory here is it is skummy that they referred to "Cylon-aligned" in comparison to "human aligned" when all we know is there is "human-aligned"?
If so, I get what you are saying, but my issue would be:

1. Mix/Robz doesn't fuck that up.
2. Mathdude said they didn't know the flavor... and I agree with you on the suspicion of Mix/Math... but with mix off the table it is kind of a reach, as I am more inclined to just chalk it up to Math reading the wiki and seeing the cylons are the bad guys.

I get the suspicion I guess, but I guess my question is - Do you really think you caught 3 skum right here all making the same mistake?

In backward order -- of course I caught 3 mafia with one move.  It's me we're talking about here.

MiX's post is absolutely the worst.  How does he know there is "at least 1 cylon-aligned cylon" in the game?  No one, and I mean NO ONE should know that, right?  Even mafia don't know if they are human or cylon, per the rules.  Hence, most likely to make this sort of statement is a player who is intimately aware of some cylon alignment and at least one flavor name within it that is a cylon on the show.

Robz is the least worst of the posts, as it's clearly focused on flavor itself.

I'm just going on the assumption that mafia is cylon-aligned, based on them being opposite species here. Doesn't that make sense?

Are you just upset I voted for you?

[mathdude]

That is MiX, Robz, and mathdude, btw.

Makes sense a mafia president would choose a mafia VP and Hated.

Yes, let's set up a public connection, so I can get a QT with someone I would (presumably, based on standard Mafia) already have a QT with if we were both Mafia. That makes sense. /sarcasm

Upset you weren't picked as VP?

[LaLight]

That is MiX, Robz, and mathdude, btw.

Makes sense a mafia president would choose a mafia VP and Hated.

Yes, let's set up a public connection, so I can get a QT with someone I would (presumably, based on standard Mafia) already have a QT with if we were both Mafia. That makes sense. /sarcasm

Upset you weren't picked as VP?

Well, possibly mafia does not have a day QT, while you and MiX do

[MiX]

That is MiX, Robz, and mathdude, btw.
*snip*

Interesting. I was giving this no credit at first, but I assume these are what you were talking about:

You can probably be a human and be cylon-aligned, and you can probably be a cylon and be human-aligned. The mere fact we don't know if we're human or cylon says that they're separate from alignment, although there's at least 1 cylon-aligned cylon, so being a cylon should be scummy.

Then we are either town-aligned or cylon-aligned... different than the first point above. This is the actual mafia-town distinction we are used to. We all are either human-aligned, or pretending that we are human-aligned, as per usual mafia games.

It seems like this has been explained a thousand times already, but in case it isn't clear: In Battlestar Galactica, there are humans who are human-aligned and Cylons who are Cylon-aligned, but there are also quite a few Cylons who are human-aligned (like, half the cylons by the end of the show!) and at least one human who is for a long time Cylon-aligned.

So, you do not know if you are human or Cylon. So your theory here is it is skummy that they referred to "Cylon-aligned" in comparison to "human aligned" when all we know is there is "human-aligned"?
If so, I get what you are saying, but my issue would be:

1. Mix/Robz doesn't fuck that up.
2. Mathdude said they didn't know the flavor... and I agree with you on the suspicion of Mix/Math... but with mix off the table it is kind of a reach, as I am more inclined to just chalk it up to Math reading the wiki and seeing the cylons are the bad guys.

I get the suspicion I guess, but I guess my question is - Do you really think you caught 3 skum right here all making the same mistake?

In backward order -- of course I caught 3 mafia with one move.  It's me we're talking about here.

MiX's post is absolutely the worst.  How does he know there is "at least 1 cylon-aligned cylon" in the game?  No one, and I mean NO ONE should know that, right?  Even mafia don't know if they are human or cylon, per the rules.  Hence, most likely to make this sort of statement is a player who is intimately aware of some cylon alignment and at least one flavor name within it that is a cylon on the show.

Robz is the least worst of the posts, as it's clearly focused on flavor itself.

When have you ever caught 3 scum with one move?

Yeah no one knows that except a rational mind making rational assumptions. How can you think it's alignment indicative if not even scum knows it? I think you cannot argue with "there's at least 1 human human-aligned player", right? Well, the same goes for 1 cylon cylon-aligned. It doesn't really make sense for none of the cylons to be cylon-aligned.

If it makes sense to call people cylon-aligned in the flavor, then it would be really likely that there's a faction with that name, right? I wouldn't know, however, and I doubt that specific term is used much, as it's kinda clunky.

That is MiX, Robz, and mathdude, btw.

Makes sense a mafia president would choose a mafia VP and Hated.

Yes, let's set up a public connection, so I can get a QT with someone I would (presumably, based on standard Mafia) already have a QT with if we were both Mafia. That makes sense. /sarcasm

Upset you weren't picked as VP?

Well, possibly mafia does not have a day QT, while you and MiX do

I would not put myself on a day QT unless we're the only members of our faction. WIFOM exists, but as ash said, why would scum pick me to be in a QT?

[MiX]

As an aside: math, I'm using the QT to post less important thoughts about the current topic of discussion, so please check it regularly when we're both online (like now).

Safe to assume it isn't, given how much I'm asking about it.

Hmm! I would say that your character is...flexible: it's not obvious that they're civilian or military. But you seem to imply that it would be obvious, in which case I can only answer with confusion.

[MiX]

I'm townreading everyone. Except

Vote: Robz

[A Drowned Kernel]

Even mafia don't know if they are human or cylon, per the rules.

As a nitpick, the rule is:

By default, players are unaware of their species.

"By default" implies that there are likely exceptions

[ashersky]

Even mafia don't know if they are human or cylon, per the rules.

As a nitpick, the rule is:

By default, players are unaware of their species.

"By default" implies that there are likely exceptions

My guess on "by default" is that no one knows until they know.  Like, role powers, etc.

[ashersky]

I'm just going on the assumption that mafia is cylon-aligned, based on them being opposite species here. Doesn't that make sense?

Are you just upset I voted for you?

Are Cylons the opposite species?  Or just another species?  Actually, I thought they were robots or something.  I've not seen the show.

It could make sense, except what if they aren't?  I've given two examples already that I found in under a minute using Google.  There's no requirement that "Cylon-aligned" is a thing, and assuming it does as town is inherently dangerous.  I feel like multiple people have argued that Cylons can be good anyway.  So no, it does not make sense, in the sense that I disagree with you as it does not make sense to me.  It might make sense to you, but I would argue, as I just did, that you are mistaken.

Also, did you vote for me?  I didn't notice, nor do I care.  if you have a second vote, feel free to place that one on me, too.

[ashersky]

That is MiX, Robz, and mathdude, btw.

Makes sense a mafia president would choose a mafia VP and Hated.

Yes, let's set up a public connection, so I can get a QT with someone I would (presumably, based on standard Mafia) already have a QT with if we were both Mafia. That makes sense. /sarcasm

Upset you weren't picked as VP?

Sarcastic confirmation of something is a million times a mafiatell.  Just so you know.

I definitely did not want to be either President or VP.  That said, I would not have picked the card that you picked.

[ashersky]

When have you ever caught 3 scum with one move?

Never, that I know of.

[ashersky]

Yeah no one knows that except a rational mind making rational assumptions. How can you think it's alignment indicative if not even scum knows it? I think you cannot argue with "there's at least 1 human human-aligned player", right? Well, the same goes for 1 cylon cylon-aligned. It doesn't really make sense for none of the cylons to be cylon-aligned.

If it makes sense to call people cylon-aligned in the flavor, then it would be really likely that there's a faction with that name, right? I wouldn't know, however, and I doubt that specific term is used much, as it's kinda clunky.

I can argue with anything you say.  I might not be right, but I can argue.  We don't know if there are any human human-aligned players.  The entire game could be Cylons forced to play this game against each other to see who deserves to be sent on the next mission (does that fit in the flavor?).  So no, I do not accept your assumption.

When has anyone been called "cylon-aligned" in the flavor itself (I may have missed that)?  Like, why would he used "aligned" in the flavor in that way, anyway?  I'm confused on that point.

[ashersky]

Hmm! I would say that your character is...flexible: it's not obvious that they're civilian or military. But you seem to imply that it would be obvious, in which case I can only answer with confusion.

Confusion is also my state of mind at this point, on this point.

It's as clear as "You are Johnny, an infant born one hour ago.  You have never left the hospital, nor can you speak or walk.  You are in the military."

[ashersky]

I realize after reading that Johnny thing that there may be settings in which one is "born into military service," like Ender or something, so my made up analogy wasn't perfect.  Apologies.

[scolapasta]

So, here's the thing -  I think knowing the flavor, it's a decent assumption to make that there is a cylon aligned faction. Were it me, and I posted about it, I would make it clear I was making the assumption. But the first instance of this is MiX, and we all know he posts assumptions as 100% accurate, no chance it's wrong fact. So if the first instance had been anyone else, I would have been a little more suspicious.; for MiX it's mostly NAI.

And then after it's out there in the void? I could see using the term and dropping the "I assume." So I think anyone else who mentioned it is also likely NAI.

I mean at this point, it's all being discussed as fact, when it really still is an assumption, no? Unless anyone's who's actually scum wants to confirm??

[scolapasta]

But I will add, mathdude raises some suspicion for me:

• did seem somewhat defensive and sarcastic about it; and I agree with ash that seems like it could be a tell.
• asked about why would he want a chat with a fellow scum, leaving out the fact that this is a day chat and scum chat is usually a night only thing (at least in my limited experience; that one game I was scum, we had day chat and everyone seemed to treat it like it was a special cookie)
• (least strong) this quote below. Based on my theory above, I would have maybe expected something mentioning the fact that someone had already used the term.

I'm just going on the assumption that mafia is cylon-aligned, based on them being opposite species here. Doesn't that make sense?

But then if he were scum, could Mix also be scum?

Meh, I never know how to read MiX. But Ithink this is all enough for an initial vote for:

Vote: mathdude

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm just going on the assumption that mafia is cylon-aligned, based on them being opposite species here. Doesn't that make sense?

Are you just upset I voted for you?

Are Cylons the opposite species?  Or just another species?  Actually, I thought they were robots or something.  I've not seen the show.

It could make sense, except what if they aren't?  I've given two examples already that I found in under a minute using Google.  There's no requirement that "Cylon-aligned" is a thing, and assuming it does as town is inherently dangerous.  I feel like multiple people have argued that Cylons can be good anyway.  So no, it does not make sense, in the sense that I disagree with you as it does not make sense to me.  It might make sense to you, but I would argue, as I just did, that you are mistaken.

Also, did you vote for me?  I didn't notice, nor do I care.  if you have a second vote, feel free to place that one on me, too.

They're robots that can disguise themselves as humans, basically. It's been awhile since I've seen the show but I'm pretty sure the two examples you gave would be effectively "Cylon aligned". There are factions within the human society, but the only force in the show that makes sense to be opposed to humanity in general would be the cylons as a group. If the town alignment was something like "the Colonial Government" I would for sure say that scum wasn't necessarily the cylons, but given that town is "human-aligned", scum is probably "cylon-aligned" even if there aren't called precisely that