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[faust]

Vote: SpaceAnemone now that there is no longer a reason not to.

Do you think my read's that bad?

Well... I didn't see much in your read other than "Space voted for mcmc". Space is capable of bussing and mcmc was never in any danger of being exiled, so that doesn't exactly appeal to me. And I do think that I know Space better than you. They have been very illogical in their pursuit of your wagon; Space likes to point out that when I'm not making sense, I'm scum; the same holds true for them.

@faust: You're going to have more traction telling us we're wrong if you provide an alternate case/wagon. Frankly, I don't think we can rule out bad play from the scum team because the quickhammer was bad play and it happened.

A quickhammer isn't bad play. It would have been decent if mcmc thought that mathdude might flip Traitor.

Wait, wouldn't it be way worse if math was traitor?

Well, the way I see it, mcmc was trying to grab some towncred with that quote that he pulled.
(now that I think of it... it is interesting that he grabbed that quote. Makes me think scum were Traitor-hunting all along, so they probably didn't recruit.)

[faust]

Question for the MiX voters: What exactly do you think was going on at the end of D1, with MiX urging the hammer and mcmc executing it?

It wasn't nearly deadline yet, and MiX was creating an artificial sense of urgency, which mcmc was capitalising on. MiX was taking a clearly terrible course of action in pushing for an immediate exile without thinking through any of the consequences of the claim or how to tease information out of it properly. He was totally failing to engage with posts from people like me or Robz, saying that we should hold off on mathdude, or sort the partial claim out more sensibly. He was reacting to almost everything except those voice-of-reason posts, and claiming he was "on fire" while doing so. If we want not to exile MiX, please convince me that letting him remain in the game to continue that kind of play is actually beneficial to my town wincon.

Just look at that reasoning. There is nothing in here on wagon composition, not even a mention of the fact that this argument would make it so that there are 2 scum on the wagon, no analysis of whether MiX is Traitor or teammate, no nothing.

I think Space decided N1 that MiX would be a good push and then didn't incorporate mcmc's flip into that already premade case.

[jotheonah]

Vig claim is 100% the go-to claim for scum in this game, especially now that they know there is one.

I swear, I will never understand this community's blind faith in obviously self-serving claims.

None of those quotes communicates a vig claim to me, and even if they did, scum would absolutely be setting up for a possible vig claim so it proves nothing.

Look, if there is another vig then it's ideal for them to counterclaim now. If there isn't then MiX is IC.

Is it really ideal for them to out themselves and play right into scum's hands? I think that's at the very least up for debate.

[faust]

Vig claim is 100% the go-to claim for scum in this game, especially now that they know there is one.

I swear, I will never understand this community's blind faith in obviously self-serving claims.

None of those quotes communicates a vig claim to me, and even if they did, scum would absolutely be setting up for a possible vig claim so it proves nothing.

Look, if there is another vig then it's ideal for them to counterclaim now. If there isn't then MiX is IC.

Is it really ideal for them to out themselves and play right into scum's hands? I think that's at the very least up for debate.

Well no you're right. they should not claim of course. They should just shoot MiX tonight.

[jotheonah]

I know that faust holds an extremely low opinion of the utiility of vigs and thinks that they should never shoot and probably should self-vote on day 1 just in case, but the vig we have in this game seems pretty good and maybe worth keeping alive.

[faust]

I know that faust holds an extremely low opinion of the utiility of vigs and thinks that they should never shoot and probably should self-vote on day 1 just in case, but the vig we have in this game seems pretty good and maybe worth keeping alive.

i have no idea where this is coming from but it is completely inaccurate.

[jotheonah]

We're arguing semantics a bit because I think we both agree that MiX's claim makes him a bad exile for today. So we should move onto figuring out who the alternative is.

[faust]

We're arguing semantics a bit because I think we both agree that MiX's claim makes him a bad exile for today. So we should move onto figuring out who the alternative is.

I'm way ahead of you.

[jotheonah]

I know that faust holds an extremely low opinion of the utiility of vigs and thinks that they should never shoot and probably should self-vote on day 1 just in case, but the vig we have in this game seems pretty good and maybe worth keeping alive.

i have no idea where this is coming from but it is completely inaccurate.

It's entirely possible I'm mixing you up with someone else. Is it ash? I know there's people on this forum who are really down on vigs.

[faust]

I know that faust holds an extremely low opinion of the utiility of vigs and thinks that they should never shoot and probably should self-vote on day 1 just in case, but the vig we have in this game seems pretty good and maybe worth keeping alive.

i have no idea where this is coming from but it is completely inaccurate.

It's entirely possible I'm mixing you up with someone else. Is it ash? I know there's people on this forum who are really down on vigs.

I remember that discussion but not who fell on which side. I tried to find the thread that this discussion happened in, no success. I did however stumble upon this gem.

[WestCoastDidds]

Holy spicy content Batman! Such exciting goings on!

faust, there you are, I’ve been missing you.

Ash is the role cop? Mix is the vig?

I’m not sure how this makes Space scum (although I 100% trust Faust’s read), and in the back and forth Joth is more towny than not.

MiX, what’s you take on EFHW? Dylan?

[SpaceAnemone]

Ironically, in one of the edits of one of my d2 MiX-is-too-scummy-not-to-exile posts, I'd been going to say that the play is too bad even to be believable as cover for a PR, and that we really should exile MiX even if he's the successful vig, because on principle that kind of play us just too unpleasant to be allowed. Luckily I think I edited myself back a bit, partly because I know I'm grumpy (sorry; am in physical pain but am getting better so will be more cheerful soon!) and partly because there wasn't any reason to speculate about the identity of the vig openly.

As for MiX, I think the claim makes a load of sense in context. Mathdude didn't come close to claiming vig, but MiX is very easily biased, so the moment he saw a potential PR he read too much into it and rushed into trying to get an exile through. I still maintain that my suggestion of letting Mathdude claim more fully before rushing into anything would have been the correct play, and that anyone urging anything else was acting against the interests of town.

Faust is right that MiX is IC if not counterclaimed. I assume there are a few people like gkrieg and Dylan who need a bit of time to react, but I'll start processing things with IC!MiX in mind in the meantime.

[SpaceAnemone]

@faust: You're going to have more traction telling us we're wrong if you provide an alternate case/wagon.

This was a conclusion I'd come to independently before I say joth post this. Faust was making a big noise asking how MiX was scummy. MiX himself has now said he was being openly scummy to hide his PR, which makes some sense but was unfortunately calibrated, since I found his levels of bad arguments so over-the-top noisy and anti-town as to be kind of offensive. And yet faust kept going back to asking about how people could read MiX scummy, which was not at all moving the conversation onto other possible vote targets.

And sure, before anyone tries to equate faust's line of questioning to the things I was asking about e.g. how EFHW understood MiX's cases, I was trying to understand what other people who were defending MiX were thinking, and how they read his arguments, because honestly I thought anyone defending him was sporting some pretty big wilful blind spots, which isn't something town wants to go around doing on purpose.

[SpaceAnemone]

Well... I didn't see much in your read other than "Space voted for mcmc". Space is capable of bussing and mcmc was never in any danger of being exiled, so that doesn't exactly appeal to me. And I do think that I know Space better than you. They have been very illogical in their pursuit of your wagon; Space likes to point out that when I'm not making sense, I'm scum; the same holds true for them.

Yep, and I've already said that your support of MiX, and your pushing for the quick exile of mathdude aren't sensible, and so you're high up my scum list.

Question for the MiX voters: What exactly do you think was going on at the end of D1, with MiX urging the hammer and mcmc executing it?

It wasn't nearly deadline yet, and MiX was creating an artificial sense of urgency, which mcmc was capitalising on. MiX was taking a clearly terrible course of action in pushing for an immediate exile without thinking through any of the consequences of the claim or how to tease information out of it properly. He was totally failing to engage with posts from people like me or Robz, saying that we should hold off on mathdude, or sort the partial claim out more sensibly. He was reacting to almost everything except those voice-of-reason posts, and claiming he was "on fire" while doing so. If we want not to exile MiX, please convince me that letting him remain in the game to continue that kind of play is actually beneficial to my town wincon.

Just look at that reasoning. There is nothing in here on wagon composition, not even a mention of the fact that this argument would make it so that there are 2 scum on the wagon, no analysis of whether MiX is Traitor or teammate, no nothing.

I think Space decided N1 that MiX would be a good push and then didn't incorporate mcmc's flip into that already premade case.

There doesn't need to be an argument on wagon composition for MiX's eod1 to look terrible. MiX failing to engage with me or Robz urging moderation isn't dependent on whether there are 2 scum on the wagon or not, so why are you saying that it matters to my argument there?

As for analysing wagons, we lost a bodyguard, so we can't even tell whether scum tried to kill on-wagon or off-wagon, and the scummy hammer ended up coming from now-known scum. I did spend a while looking at the voting patterns, and I've already mentioned that I think joth is likely town because of it, given that mcmc doesn't really seem to have bussed d1 in other recent scumgames. Is that the kind of post you're trying to accuse me of not having made, or do you just need the one-scum-in-this-pool sort of predictions I sometimes make, so that then you can accuse me of being scummy for assuming or not assuming where the potential traitor fits in, since those are a lot harder to deduce well when we don't even know if all the scumteam are aware of each other?

Vote:  faust

[faust]

@faust: You're going to have more traction telling us we're wrong if you provide an alternate case/wagon.

This was a conclusion I'd come to independently before I say joth post this. Faust was making a big noise asking how MiX was scummy. MiX himself has now said he was being openly scummy to hide his PR, which makes some sense but was unfortunately calibrated, since I found his levels of bad arguments so over-the-top noisy and anti-town as to be kind of offensive. And yet faust kept going back to asking about how people could read MiX scummy, which was not at all moving the conversation onto other possible vote targets.

Oh, is this the OMGUS arriving?

I think I said multiple times that I was waiting for gkrieg and Dylan to answer my questions before moving on with my arguments. I mean, there was time; it's not like I could know that people would be so eager to get that quixile in.

[faust]

Well... I didn't see much in your read other than "Space voted for mcmc". Space is capable of bussing and mcmc was never in any danger of being exiled, so that doesn't exactly appeal to me. And I do think that I know Space better than you. They have been very illogical in their pursuit of your wagon; Space likes to point out that when I'm not making sense, I'm scum; the same holds true for them.

Yep, and I've already said that your support of MiX, and your pushing for the quick exile of mathdude aren't sensible, and so you're high up my scum list.

Yes, yes, clearly the sensible thing to do with regards to MiX was to stay on his wagon when it was already clear that people were ready and willing to exile him. Sorry for not seeing that sooner...

The thing with mathdude wasn't my finest moment, but his claim was pretty bad. You're just putting "not sensible" where it should just read "wrong". It's ironic that you are giving me flak for enabling a PR exile when you've just been doing the very same thing.

[faust]

It should be clear to anyone reading that I would not possibly be mcmc's partner here. You had a bit of an (albeit terrible) argument when it came to MiX, seeing as he was the alternative wagon - there the claim would be that it was an attempt to save MiX. But now we know it was town v town, so there is literally zero reason for any scumteam to put all their votes behind a bad misexile.

[jotheonah]

Holy spicy content Batman! Such exciting goings on!

faust, there you are, I’ve been missing you.

Ash is the role cop? Mix is the vig?

I’m not sure how this makes Space scum (although I 100% trust Faust’s read), and in the back and forth Joth is more towny than not.

MiX, what’s you take on EFHW? Dylan?

I agree this is a pretty spicy game.

[jotheonah]

MiX, assuming that you are the vig, excellent work. I can't remember the last time we had a successful night one vig shot.

[MiX]

MiX, assuming that you are the vig, excellent work. I can't remember the last time we had a successful night one vig shot.

Thank you? I would also thank Robz and Space, the latter, even if scum, helped a lot.


(For Space) Considering that the quickexile was made by scum, and I vigged them, I'm at peace with my push on math EoD1. Town shouldn't - and didn't - hammer math back then, they should've- and would've - looked for other alternatives, hopefully ones that aren't me. The fact that mcmc got the hammer first isn't mine - or town's - fault.

[MiX]

Vig claim is 100% the go-to claim for scum in this game, especially now that they know there is one.

I swear, I will never understand this community's blind faith in obviously self-serving claims.

None of those quotes communicates a vig claim to me, and even if they did, scum would absolutely be setting up for a possible vig claim so it proves nothing.

Look, if there is another vig then it's ideal for them to counterclaim now. If there isn't then MiX is IC.

Is it really ideal for them to out themselves and play right into scum's hands? I think that's at the very least up for debate.

Well no you're right. they should not claim of course. They should just shoot MiX tonight.

Well, no: scum!me has bulletproof. Scum should counterclaim me today, not in 2 days and say that I was bulletproof.

I know that faust holds an extremely low opinion of the utiility of vigs and thinks that they should never shoot and probably should self-vote on day 1 just in case, but the vig we have in this game seems pretty good and maybe worth keeping alive.

Says the guy that wanted to essentially hammer the vig. Honestly, I'm no longer useful, since one of the scum has a 1-shot bulletproof, and the bodyguard's dead. I'm just an IC...a MIC if you will.

MiX, what’s you take on EFHW? Dylan?

joth is town, ash is townie but fits in a lot of scumteams, Space is obv!town, faust is scum with ash or now, Didds is not doing much but then again she's tunneling EFHW less than I usually am, EFHW is town, Dylan's townie with a lot of bad reads and very scummy pushes that make him more scum than town, gkrieg hasn't done anything that town does yet.

These are my reads. Yeah they're not very detailed, my reads are a mess, considering my 3 strongest reads are dead. Then again, I killed one of them, so...

I'm just not seeing EFHW being scum this game, if she is scum then she's trying to scumhunt and not trying to help mcmc accomplish anything, I also don't see an agenda for D2 either. I disagree with a lot of things Dylan's saying, but they always seem reasonable and this game is no different. I should probably reread his scum games, since I remember him not being this cool as scum, but his posts are so opportunistic and he seems to have a different goal than other people here.

As for MiX, I think the claim makes a load of sense in context. Mathdude didn't come close to claiming vig, but MiX is very easily biased, so the moment he saw a potential PR he read too much into it and rushed into trying to get an exile through. I still maintain that my suggestion of letting Mathdude claim more fully before rushing into anything would have been the correct play, and that anyone urging anything else was acting against the interests of town.

I'm just gonna cut the first paragraph, I can't talk about it enough without getting into too many NAI things.

Well, math clearly did a "Roleblocker or Vigilante" claim, even Dylan saw that. I saw it and took my chances. Of course I was biased, as the Vig I overblew the chances that he was claiming Vig. I rushed the exile, but my vote was already on him, I couldn't do anything myself, in fact scum did, not town. My reasoning for voting math to E-1 there was so we could continue the day: as joth had implied earlier, we weren't stopping before math claimed, and I wanted town to have as much time as possible to look at someone else as an alternative. Tell mcmc that he shouldn't had hammered; of course not, and if you say that I gave mcmc cover for him to hammer, tell that to his dead body. I didn't allow my play to help scum.

This is all useless now that I'm a MIC, but I still want to justify myself.

[faust]

Vig claim is 100% the go-to claim for scum in this game, especially now that they know there is one.

I swear, I will never understand this community's blind faith in obviously self-serving claims.

None of those quotes communicates a vig claim to me, and even if they did, scum would absolutely be setting up for a possible vig claim so it proves nothing.

Look, if there is another vig then it's ideal for them to counterclaim now. If there isn't then MiX is IC.

Is it really ideal for them to out themselves and play right into scum's hands? I think that's at the very least up for debate.

Well no you're right. they should not claim of course. They should just shoot MiX tonight.

Well, no: scum!me has bulletproof. Scum should counterclaim me today, not in 2 days and say that I was bulletproof.

Further proof that you are not scum, because no scum in their right mind would ever take the bulletproof modification, it's a dud and I think there was an updated version of this setup once that replaced it.

[faust]

I forgot that the Traitor has a 1-shot BP. Might be worth counterclaiming then I suppose. It doesn't matter because there will be no counterclaim.

[MiX]

Further proof that you are not scum, because no scum in their right mind would ever take the bulletproof modification, it's a dud and I think there was an updated version of this setup once that replaced it.

Yeah, I agree, but only bulletproof scum would claim vig, so...

I forgot that the Traitor has a 1-shot BP. Might be worth counterclaiming then I suppose. It doesn't matter because there will be no counterclaim.

It's always fun to think that scum won't kill me tonight and will instead counterclaim me. Personally I have kinda resigned myself from scumhunting because I'm just going to die, and that small hope of a counterclaim's what's keeping me going.

[gkrieg13]

Starting a reread.