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[gkrieg13]

Mathdude, MiX is pretty much the most suspicion-inducing person there is. He does all kinds of things that seem not very town, even when he’s town. I haven’t made up my mind about him this game, but I’d advise taking any suspicion of him with a big grain of salt. He’s his own breed of cat.

Dangit Didds, now mathdude won't get a genuine read on me which means I can't just call him town for him scumreading me. How am I supposed to read him now?

Well, no more bites on leaving my vote on ash. Then I guess I will...
vote: Dylan

But MiX, I've got my eye on you.

Who do you think is scummy? Did you think ash was scummy? Do you think Dylan's scummy? Do you think I'm scum? I see a lot of votes, but they're all distractions, what are you really thinking right now?

Not knowing how any of you play, how good of a scum read do you think I can get on anyone? It's day 1 and maybe some of you can read each other, but I'm just guessing.

Dylan was a shot in the dark (I started with him because he's no longer IC). But his reaction and others' responses seem to tell me it's a good spot to leave my vote for now.
I had no read on ash, so that was purely to look for reactions and responses. It worked. I never intended to leave my vote there, and I think that was obvious.
MiX, something about your defense of ash gives me a slight scum-read. I'll let that sit for now, but I will be watching what you say.

You call these deflections. I call them promoting discussion. Maybe I'm doing this "wrong", but this is how I do day 1.

PPE based on what Didds said - thanks for the heads-up. I won't push too hard on MiX yet if they always read scummy.

I called them distractions, not deflections. Slightly different. And I don't think you're playing incorrectly, I just want to know what's going on inside your head. That's kinda what the game's about.

I would also highly recommend reading past games, getting a feel of someone's meta helps a lot on the first game. I know I did that before I played my first game here and I had the worst reads possible, but hey, it's better than no reads at all.


Vote: EFHW, although I disagree that EFHW is scum, I had the exact same thought about her. I don't think it applies to EFHW though, but it might, so we can follow through this.

I also don't like this vote, which is once again getting on a wagon for not too great a reason.

[gkrieg13]

I am in a day of non-stop meetings. So, this is some high overview stuff instead of post-specific replies.

I am giving some squinty side-eye to MiX and Dylan talking about responses that have emotional components in them as a bad thing. The wordsy people use emotion not as a crutch, but as a part of the way we think. Joth's frustration at having his case scrutinized feels way more authentic and compelling to me than if he hadn't frustration, and I don't think that it has an emaotional component is a reason to discount it.

I freaking love Ashersky's description of putting in the work as oversalting. And Joth is right, Ash's reads of individuals and their typical playstyle is enviable.

When I initially voted for EFHW, it was RVS-lite because she was laying low, but in the time since then (page 5 for me) she has leaned into the scumminess, largely in response to MiX.

I am also seeing way less of faust than I'd have expected at this point in the game.

This seems like a townie WCD post. She is definitely scum hunting in this post.

[gkrieg13]

For the record, posting too much and thereby heaping suspicion on myself and skating way too close to being the day 1 exile is pretty standard meta for me regardless of my role and alignment. I would argue that if anything scum!joth is a more careful poster. He would never have posted

Why is it that about 20 people in this game have made totally unexplained votes and been completely ignored but I'm getting the third degree for voting for someone who made a really bad case and explaining that I'm voting for him because he made a really bad case?

because, as Dylan said, it reads as a scummy overreaction to a small amount of scrutiny. But town!Joth just sort of clicked post because he was feeling ticked off because he hadn't had his coffee yet and didn't even consider how it might come across.

Nah I think that's simply a joth!joth post, you'd think of that at least 5 times before posting it as either alignment. This, however, is a town!joth post.

May I interest you in an EFHW wagon? She tried to deflect my vote very aggressively, this might be (yet another) scum!EFHW game!

I feel like you're interpreting their post way more aggressively than it sounds to me. I mean, I'm not opposed to building an EFHW wagon, but you haven't given me enough reason to start one yet.

Re: Didds - I didn't say using emotion in this game is a problem. I've had my share of emotional moments and frustration that has bled into my posts before, so I wasn't saying emotion=scummy. The degree of emotion after literally two posts that read to me more like asking questions rather than strong pushback struck me as possibly insincere emotion. His most recent posts have sounded a bit more towny to me though, so I'm willing to accept it was probably genuine.

I also like this explanation from Dylan. Does not seem like the kind of post scum makes when they are trying to look at the game from a town perspective. Shows an evolving read on joth, which looks like scum hunting to me.

[gkrieg13]

Wow. I am incapable of being that crafty.

The nothing case was my vote on ash.

I disagree that you are incapable of being that crafty.

[gkrieg13]

I see what people are saying about mathdude's post. It is unusually directive and it seems early to feel "torn" between a lurker exile and a mild suspicion exile.

Also, what does it mean that he votes Space to prompt greater participation when I had just done that? Are two prompting votes needed?

I know he's new, but that could be why he didn't realize his post would out scum!him. If people feel strongly, I'm ok with waiting for Day 2. Right now I'll ...

vote: Mathdude

What's the scummiest place in the wagon if math's town? I'm thinking this one.

I think you are all assuming math is an expert, because he's tried very hard to appear as one. But the truth is he's a new player in terms of knowing the meta here, and you should think of him as such. The super scummy post is incredibly towny because no scum would ever risk posting it. It's probably the most honest post yet, by anyone.

For complaints that I'm just townreading everyone... Well, I'm NOT townreading mcmc, that's for sure.

Who has complained about that, other than yourself?

For complaints that I'm just townreading everyone... Well, I'm NOT townreading mcmc, that's for sure.

Ooohhh...... what is off about him, besides the aforementioned man-bun?

Can't quite put it into words yet.

Who are you voting for, and why?

Of all the reactions to mathdude's post, this is my least favorite.

[gkrieg13]

Vote: Space for being wrong

Hehe, the first thought that pops into my head here is that this is exactly the sort of disagreement we've actively talked about wanting to fabricate when we're both on the scumteam, isn't it? Sadly, I can guarantee we're not both scum here because I'm town!

Anyway, I don't think a claim of "we actually decided" anything in a group like this can reasonably be backed up as an open-and-shut case, therefore I'm not really wrong. I'm also not even sure I support the "hedginess isn't scummy" argument, because I think as scum you do have to put in some effort to keep your options open and be able to pivot onto an interesting wagon. At best I'd grant that hedginess in D1 is not usually necessary for scum, since nobody knows what's going on and there are probably plenty of open wagons to jump on.

The other option (which would allow you to claim I'm actually wrong!) is that I'm just not part of the "we" with whom you're agreeing on the thing. It's possible, in that I've only been playing on this site for ~4.5 years, so I'm a relative newbie to the likes of some of you :-P

This post is full of just the right amount of sarcasm (sass? not sure this is quite the right word) that is more likely to come from town!Space.

[gkrieg13]

Reading Robz as town. It feels like he is scum hunting in his own way.

Jury is still out on Ash. He likes to buddy me when he is scum, which it feels like he is doing here, but obviously he is also genuine here I think, so I'm not sure yet. But i also like his posts 140-142 so I'm leaning slightly town on him.

mathdude seems townie so far.

Obviously reading MiX as scum. I don't like where they have voted and how they have popped around their vote at the beginning of so many wagons and then jumped off when they didn't pick up immediate steam.

Reading faust as townie. His posts seem to be the matter-of-fact posts I expect from him as town while applying pressure with some of his votes D1.

It seems like joth is jumped on a bunch early in the Day. But I like how he is defending himself.

I like Dylan here, seems to also be scum hunting and posting good analysis of people and their posts.

Mathdude had the obvious scummy post, but I would rather exile MiX and then loop back to mathdude if MiX is scum. I think scum!MiX is more likely to defend town!mathdude than town!MiX defending scum!mathdude.

Space reads townie to me. Taking something they can analyze (whether or not it actually indicates scumminess, I'm not sure) and talking about it. Obviously it is something they can do equally well as scum, but they still just read townie to me by their tone.

I don't have any real reads on mcmc yet, although I usually tone-read him poorly. EFHW also doesn't read anything to me yet, but I can usually read her after a Day or two. WCD is leaning town.

vote: MiX

Note to self: stopped reading at mathdude's long post on page 10.

[WestCoastDidds]

Gkrieg!! It’s so good to see you! I appreciate the fresh eyes.

I’m still wary of EFHW, but that is a vote that’s not doing much right now.

Vote: MiX seems more fitting right now

[MiX]

I was going to defend myself against gkrieg's case, but there's really nothing. I stand by every vote I made this game, I don't think any of them are superfluous, anti-town, scummy or jumping wagons: just following my current reads and trying to make competing or leading wagons that are relevant in the present and future. Why is that scummy?

[mcmcsalot]

Is MiX a better alterative than Robz, if you're looking to grow a second wagon to compete?

I think so, yes.

Did you notice that Robz went from saying that he definitely wasn't townreading mcmc, to voting me for "being wrong", and then to unvoting entirely, with no more mention of mcmc at all? I thought that was a bit interesting, especially because the three game posts mcmc made in the intervening time were three of the ones I think I struggle most with seeing a sensible townie narrative for.

These are the three posts you can't see a town narrative for.

I don't think Joth has really done anything scummy.

Do you think he is just doing joth things or do you think the things hes done are towny?

Do you?

I do, joths initial votes for Dylan, gkrieg, and robz all struck me as fishing for wagons, all for generic reasons that he quickly backed off of as soon as the wagons didn’t take off. His lack of acknowledgement to the initial votes on him and then frustration/impressedness at your vote for him (which is a vote that makes him significantly more likely to be exhiled) is good scum tactic.

So I'm fishing for wagons, but when the best and most plausible wagon in the game cropped up (mathdude) I decided to ignore it? And I also passed up an opportunity to hop on the EFHW wagon after being explicitly invited to join it?

Are they both my partners? Or am I just really bad at fishing for wagons?

Fishing for wagons and joining quickly built wagons are two very different things. I think you are good at fishing for wagons safely and are acutely aware/concerned of the attention joining the math wagon would bring on you.

Why even bother giving out a day pass if it can be revoked at any time? Seems like false advertising.

My thought as well!

Because giving out day passes is a fun laze-fair towny thing to do but he also doesn’t want to count out joining a super quick wagon. Once he can think of a good excuse to that is.

I get disagreeing with my read on joth but you can't find a town narrative? I'm literally explaining my scum read. Also you are mis connecting my post about the day pass to ash I am referring to joth.

Ok, Robz has basically done nothing so far but townread people and ask naive questions and it's starting to feel off to me. I usually expect a little more robust mafia playing from one of the founding members of this playgroup. Maybe he's doing something different or just rusty from the time off, but I think he's trying to lay low and skate through day 1 and not making any particular effort to scumhunt.

Vote: Robz

I don't hate the mathdude wagon but it just seems too easy and I don't trust it.

Wait. Have you even played with Robz before? Since when does he do things D1?

What do you think of mathdude?

The post raised eyebrows but I would not have expected it to garner three votes in rapid succession. The suggestion of directing town PRs pings us as scummy, but it seems like something a new person might not realize was problematic. And the rest of it just seems like a new person who's frustrated with Day 1 and wants to get things rolling, which is a feeling I can very much relate to.

He's on my radar, but I haven't revoked his day pass.

I wasn't throwing shade at ash, he gave a day pass and then removed it when math did something he found scummy that makes perfect sense. It is joth who I think seconded the "day pass" which is light hearted to appear towny, then didn't want to hard remove it because jumping on the quick math wagon seemed too scummy without a good reason but scum hates to pass up an easy exhile hence him needed to keep his option. Again how you can't see a sensible town narrative from my posting and explaining my scum read is a little over the top.

[Robz888]

Now I'm just reading everyone as town, franky.

[Robz888]

I guess not EFHW. Vote: EFHW

[mathdude]

Vote Count 1.5:
mathdude (4): Dylan32, faust, Ashersky, Joth
Joth (2): MCMC, EFHW
SpaceAnenome (1): mathdude
EFHW (1): WestCoastDidds
MCMC (1): SpaceAnenome
Ashersky (1): gkrieg
Robz888 (1): MiX
Not Voting (1): Robz888

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to Exile.
Day 1 ends February 26th at 10:40pm Forum Time. That is in 2 days time!!!

Looks like this was missed:

Oh, also, obviously (now that you are contributing meaningful posts)...
unvote

Thank you. Fixed.

[EFHW]

Now I'm just reading everyone as town, franky.

What changed in your read on mcmc?

[EFHW]

This feels like town!MiX to me.

[EFHW]

vote: joth. I don't like the "he assumed he would be alive" argument and it looks like joth is taking the opportunity to jump on the wagon.

I mean... you jumping off the mathdude wagon for this is just exquisitely ironic.

Only if I jumped on the mathdude wagon as opportunistic scum. Since I actually jumped on as using-my-vote town, there is no particular irony here.

Okay, then it's ironic if joth's also town.

And scum!faust would know if we were both town...

[Robz888]

Now I'm just reading everyone as town, franky.

What changed in your read on mcmc?

I was asked to explain it and realized I couldn't!

[EFHW]

I am finding myself disagreeing with Space more than usual. @Space, can you say why you had trouble reading mcmc's posts with a town narrative?

I also have misgivings about mathdude's most recent long post. I'm starting to lean in that direction again. He complains about being "picked apart" and his PR discussion seems strange. It must happen on other sites as well that town decides to keep quiet about PRs early on. Finally, he says he is trying to contribute, but this post and the previous one are his defense, and then he lurked until pointing out the vote count error.

vote: mathdude. E-2.

[ashersky]

I voted MiX purely as an experiment to see if he would vote for me in retaliation, and he didn't disappoint.

But I actually think if he was scum, his buddies might have explained to him that he has to stop doing this pure retribution stay-alive-at-all-costs sort of thing.

Unvote

You mean in their daychat that you somehow know they chose?

vote: Robz

[ashersky]

And having read the rest of the thread, I see it was discussed.

To support the narrative: Robz is actually giving the advice in the daychat that he is putting in thread, maintaining the "lie as little as possible" tactic that serves mafia so well.  He started the wagon, which gives him town!cred if MiX is mafia and lynched, but hopped off early enough and with a good enough reason to not get much partner suspicion.

So both Robz and MiX would be mafia in this scenario.

It doesn't actually affect my mathdude read at all, but it adds a whole new dimension.

I'd vote for any of the three.

[ashersky]

vote: mathdude so there's no thinking I'm trying to save him there as he neared E.

But I will switch as needed.

[ashersky]

Also, 48 hours to deadline?  Is that right?  I'm way ahead of you all time zone-wise.

[ashersky]

I guess not EFHW. Vote: EFHW

This is a nothing vote, considering she's just not under consideration for exile at this point.  So if you want her under consideration, perhaps a case to go along with that vote would help you.

[Swowl]

Vote Count 1.6:
mathdude (5): Dylan32, faust, Ashersky, Joth, EFHW
MiX (2): gkrieg, WestCoastDidds
Joth (1): MCMC
EFHW (1): Robz888
MCMC (1): SpaceAnenome
Robz888 (1): MiX
Not Voting (1): mathdude

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to Exile.
Day 1 ends February 26th at 10:40pm Forum Time. That is in 2 days time!!!

[ashersky]

I had written up an updated VC and stuff, but then it appeared!