Wow, just wow. Disappear for 18 hours (a bit of sleep, a busy day teaching... you know, IRL stuffs), and the thread lights up... against me! Ok, I'm here. There is a lot to reply to. Let's see where this goes.
My last post, made around 3am last night:
Well, some people are active enough that I could find "reasons" I think pretty much any of them could be scum or reasons any of them could be town. However, there is definitely TONS of useful interactions that have been happening, so that bodes well for tomorrow. Town, we have to carefully use any PR's to make sure the results can be useful not only individually, but also in how the results may interact with those interactions... if that makes any sense. (Getting a read on someone is helpful... but getting a read on someone that you're fairly certain is connected to another someone can be even more useful).
But now I'm torn between 2 options. Do we try to vote someone out who we have mild suspicions of, who we can actually connect their reveal-on-exile to the statements made by others about them on day-1? Or do we just go for the less active lurkers, to make sure they don't just hide through a couple days?
vote: Space
Reason: post more!
It made sense to me last night. Reading it again, I can see some of the fuss about it. I was trying to get out a bunch of thoughts, but they are coming across different now as I read them while a little more awake. Also, I felt I hadn't contributed much in a day or two, so I started posting the little I was thinking. (I'll comment on a few of the statements below, replying to others who have quoted or referenced my post, as they raise the issues with my post that I now see as reading "off").
Here's a current Space Count:
---(snip)---
{really long post, lot of numbers}
These facts that Space worked out are constantly being considered in my head (hence "mathdude"), though I didn't have the time or desire to go back through 7+ pages of posts to figure it out on my phone in bed last night. I really appreciate the numbers though, Space! It pretty much lines up with what I was noticing. And not knowing your whole group or individual metas, these numbers are about all I have to work with at the moment.
Oh, also, obviously (now that you are contributing meaningful posts)...
unvoteHere is another useful interaction:
Vote: mathdude
vote: mathdude
Faust beat me to it.
Thanks. These make sense. And boy did they get the ball rolling.
Yeah, that was the scummiest post of the game so far... I hate breaking my personal new-guy D1 pass, but, it sounds like you’ve played enough elsewhere to not truly be a newbie, so yeah, this is fine.
Vote: mathdude
This is opportunistic... a bit. I see it now - it does read a bit scummy. But you do what you have to do. I have played elsewhere. I'm not a mafia newbie. I can say you're heading down the wrong path here though. I'm very much town.
... What was scummy about it?
Pretty hedgy, keeps option open to exile literally everyone in his first sentence. Over-aware about town PRs and subtly trying to direct their mindset on what to do with their actions. More than 2 calendar days before the deadline and advancing the idea of a lurker policy lynch. Votes for Space seemingly solely because lurker status when in his own words, “there is definitely TONS of useful interactions happening.”
At least you have a reason for jumping on the train. Now, just as I don't know all of you, you don't know me. Keeping an option open to exile anyone day-1 just makes sense to me at this point in a game. And being aware of PRs is also me. Probably as I get to know you guys, I'll do a little more thinking in my head about PRs on day-1, and save the actual discussion for day 2 or 3, when we can actually gather information from them. I just wanted to (as you point out) "subtly" let you guys know I was thinking about them. I will have questions about them - possibly towards the end of day-1, or definitely on day-2 as info is revealed. I know about power roles, but I want to make sure I understand how exactly they work and are treated here (as it may be slightly different than what I'm used to).
Also, I'm definitely a fan of kicking intentional lurkers. If we see people lurking but not contributing, that's one thing. If people are just busy IRL, that's another. And I don't know which is which at this point, but the "Space Count" and Space's analysis definitely helped me a bit there.
I see what people are saying about mathdude's post. It is unusually directive and it seems early to feel "torn" between a lurker exile and a mild suspicion exile.
Also, what does it mean that he votes Space to prompt greater participation when I had just done that? Are two prompting votes needed?
I know he's new, but that could be why he didn't realize his post would out scum!him. If people feel strongly, I'm ok with waiting for Day 2. Right now I'll ...
vote: Mathdude
I think I've addressed most of this in response to Dylan's posts above. But this is definitely very opportunistic. I mean, it is vote 4 of 7 required. But it's also the highest vote count we've gotten yet. I post honestly. I post my thoughts. I'm not worried, in general, about whether a post of mine "would out scum!him" (scum!me). My thoughts are real, regardless of whether town or mafia. I am town here, but I don't think my post would be much different even if I was mafia - again, as I've said, I've played this before.
This post just strikes me as newbie trying to contribute meaningfully. I don't think it's a townie post particularly, and yes it's hedgy, but haven't we actually decided that hedginess is not actually a scum characteristic? Isn't it something I falsely claimed was hedgy 130 games ago?
Besides "should we just exile lurkers" is a point we end up debating every other game, and it turns out the pro-town answer is "basically, yes."
Thanks. These are some things I'm trying to say in all these replies above (but you use much fewer words to say them!)
I guess I should also also clarify that I'm not really scumreading mathdude right now, though I'm happy to be suspicious of people going too far out of their way to try to divert his wagon, and to keep an eye on his interactions accordingly.
I think it's polite to give newbies a daypass, unless they do something outright scummy, because we're a community of players and it can be really tough for the first game or two, so letting them accrue experience that bit faster is probably helpful. Plus, mathdude seems to be willing enough to post his thinking out loud and engage it conversation, and I think a newbie scum trying for a high level of engagement will be at least as catchable later on as now.
I understand the politeness you guys are talking about. Playing in the past, we had to be careful not to "scare away the newbies". No worries here. I won't disappear if you exile me. I may not pay as close of attention to the thread if I'm not in the game, which means I won't get to know your play styles as much. But play the game as if I've been here for a few games already.
Yeah, a whole lot of people have jumped in to defend mathdude before we even got a chance to see him respond to the wagon himself. I mean, I get that the one post isn't a sure thing like a true scumslip or anything and he could still be town, but it was a scummier post than a lot of other things that have garnered votes to this point, so I feel like town should have been a little slower to defend it this early in the wagon. It's middle of D1 and this was only the 2nd wagon to even hit 3 people (using the official VCs as reference; Joth's hit 3, MiX moved, then Ash joined to put it back on 3 before moving to mathdude).
I actually agree with you here. I'm at least as leery of those strongly defending me as I am of those attacking me. (Now, remember how I post here guys... this is not "I think you all are scum", as before. This is just saying I'm not so sure about any of this... again/still). And yes, here I am now, responding to the wagon myself finally.
Back to Space's post now...
Here's a current Space Count:
--(snip - vote count not relevant to my reply)---
The post and word counts (which exclude quoted text) are relevant to something I was doing in last night's post, looking at joth in particular because he was getting heat for being active, so I may as well share these so that anyone else can draw conclusions from them:
Player post counts:
27 jotheonah (mean 33.4 words/post)
25 Robz888 (mean 20.8 words/post)
24 MiX (mean 50.0 words/post)
19 faust (mean 15.6 words/post)
19 ashersky (mean 40.9 words/post)
18 mcmcsalot (mean 33.0 words/post)
13 EFHW (mean 17.1 words/post)
13 Dylan32 (mean 83.7 words/post)
11 WestCoastDidds (mean 53.9 words/post)
11 mathdude (mean 67.9 words/post)
8 SpaceAnemone (mean 101.4 words/post)
3 gkrieg13 (mean 12.0 words/post)
Player word counts:
1201 MiX
1088 Dylan32
902 jotheonah
811 SpaceAnemone
778 ashersky
747 mathdude
594 mcmcsalot
593 WestCoastDidds
519 Robz888
296 faust
222 EFHW
36 gkrieg13
I like these ranked lists. Total posts is one thing, but is mostly indicative of the person's play/post style in the game... sort of meta info, not necessarily useful for this game (unless someone usually posts a lot and are mostly lurking now). Total word count is a combination of personal play/post style and engagement in this game. But I'm actually looking more at the mean (average) words/post. This helps me get to know you guys, in a nice, summarized way, rather than going back through 9+ pages of replies multiple times.
From one extreme to another, there is gkrieg at 12 words/post to Space over 100. I knew before Space started the recent posts, both Space and gkrieg were low (on both posts and mean words/post, which also meant total words), but I didn't realize how low gkrieg was. I could have poked either, really. I poked Space. It generated discussion. I'm glad. But what's up with gkrieg - is this typical? Is it even remotely helpful? Should I have poked gkrieg? Should I now?
So how's that now? Have I addressed the concerns some of you have? Now let's drop the silly votes against me and move onto something actually helpful for day-1. The things I posted last night I did intentionally. I wrote what I did, and I wouldn't take them back. Maybe I should have been a little more diplomatic in how I said them, and may have if I was not half asleep. But I still stand by what I said, and hopefully now with this long post, some of it makes a little more sense.
PPE - I see a lot more posts that have happened since I started this one. Rather than responding here (and delaying this post), it appears I need to get it posted, and reply to the new ones in a new one myself.