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[ashersky]

This game is in need of an intervention.

How does MiX make sense as scum here? What, the scumteam just decided to get two members on a mission to push through a quickexile on D1? Come on. MiX and mcmc are seasoned players, and this is terrible play. No way it happens. Believing anything else is just wishful thinking.

Now come the people who will argue that "sure, that may be true, but if MiX is the Traitor then scum would not have been aware of having 2 people on the wagon". Yeah, great, so you case is that MiX can be exactly one scum role that we don't even know is in the game? Sounds to me like a good reason to not exile him.

Is your argument that bad play comes from town and not mafia?  Because that is how it reads.  Mafia players have bad games sometimes.

[faust]

MiX wagon stalling seems more likely to be because he is mafia than because he is town

Except you have no evidence for this.

[faust]

This game is in need of an intervention.

How does MiX make sense as scum here? What, the scumteam just decided to get two members on a mission to push through a quickexile on D1? Come on. MiX and mcmc are seasoned players, and this is terrible play. No way it happens. Believing anything else is just wishful thinking.

Now come the people who will argue that "sure, that may be true, but if MiX is the Traitor then scum would not have been aware of having 2 people on the wagon". Yeah, great, so you case is that MiX can be exactly one scum role that we don't even know is in the game? Sounds to me like a good reason to not exile him.

Is your argument that bad play comes from town and not mafia?  Because that is how it reads.  Mafia players have bad games sometimes.

No, it's not. You could try to actually understand instead of being dismissive about it. Mafia players can have bad games, yes; they don't usually intentionally set themselves up for bad games.

[ashersky]

This game is in need of an intervention.

How does MiX make sense as scum here? What, the scumteam just decided to get two members on a mission to push through a quickexile on D1? Come on. MiX and mcmc are seasoned players, and this is terrible play. No way it happens. Believing anything else is just wishful thinking.

Now come the people who will argue that "sure, that may be true, but if MiX is the Traitor then scum would not have been aware of having 2 people on the wagon". Yeah, great, so you case is that MiX can be exactly one scum role that we don't even know is in the game? Sounds to me like a good reason to not exile him.

Is your argument that bad play comes from town and not mafia?  Because that is how it reads.  Mafia players have bad games sometimes.

No, it's not. You could try to actually understand instead of being dismissive about it. Mafia players can have bad games, yes; they don't usually intentionally set themselves up for bad games.

Or they said "hey, let's both do this thing together, no one will think mafia partners would do such a coordinated push, that way if one of us is exiled the other will have a strong defense."

Then it's actually good play, right?  Well played MiX and McMc.  Well played.

[MiX]

What I think from trying to put it together following all your references is that you were accusing mathdude of being the traitor because he sheeped joth at one point early in the game, which happened at some point before the mathdude post you'd actually quoted, and you thought that the obvious conclusion from that was that mathdude was a traitor purposefully sheeping mafia!joth. You never said anything of the sort, and I'd be curious whether anyone else in-game realised that that's what you were saying (if indeed it even was?!) when you raised it at the end of do. Do you see how much clearer it could have been had you actually said what you meant?

I mean, I did mention all of this:

Woah, that's crazy.

Vote: joth

This post comes immediately after math's, and:

Woah, that's crazy.

Vote: joth

Why the Joth vote?

True, but given he FoS’d you your vote has an implied OMGUS.

Vote: Dylan32

Joth started this, and I think he's a better vote than mathdude.

Then I say I'm scumreading both joth and math. And at EoD1 I say that I thought they were scum/traitor.

It's not like it was a good case, but hey, you got to what I meant perfectly. And no, no one was going to look up what I had meant EoD1, but then again people were focusing on the present, as they should given the math wagon.

[MiX]

Regarding the MiX wagon that opened today -- joth did some talking about it, but I think he may be incorrect?

The thing to me is it shot up quickly and then stalled, which feels more indicative of a wagon on mafia than a wagon on town.  If remaining mafia are already on a MiX misexile wagon, then okay, but quite often I think wagons on mafia stall more than town.

So the fact that it hit E-2 and has just hovered there seems suspect.  Sure, it could be that everyone realizes with ash in this game, an E-1 vote is basically the hammer, but I don't think everyone is thinking about that.

If MiX is mafia, his partner has started one of the other wagons, I think.  Mafia team is just in too bad a way to go for the hard bus on D2 (there are obviously players who would buck that assumption, but I am not mafia this game).

You do know that scum can think I'm scum, making it looks like a "scum wagon"? Not that I'm saying this is happening: in fact, I know for a fact that scum knows I'm town.

Prior to my reminding anyone, no one had voted.  Since my reminder, players may be being careful; before that?  I doubt it.

Mafia wagons often stall is not terrible reasoning; it's a fairly normal argument that gets brought up often.  Mafia use it to their advantage often, especially in the early game, where it can be useful to have wagons that don't go anywhere on themselves.

MiX wagon stalling seems more likely to be because he is mafia than because he is town, regardless of any other external influences on voting.

Saying it stalled because too many players are AFK does not answer the question.

If the wagon keeps being "intentionally" stalled, I'm going to die at EoD2. How is this something I would want? What scum play is "accept that you have a random wagon on you and do nothing about it"?

This game is in need of an intervention.

How does MiX make sense as scum here? What, the scumteam just decided to get two members on a mission to push through a quickexile on D1? Come on. MiX and mcmc are seasoned players, and this is terrible play. No way it happens. Believing anything else is just wishful thinking.

Now come the people who will argue that "sure, that may be true, but if MiX is the Traitor then scum would not have been aware of having 2 people on the wagon". Yeah, great, so you case is that MiX can be exactly one scum role that we don't even know is in the game? Sounds to me like a good reason to not exile him.

Is your argument that bad play comes from town and not mafia?  Because that is how it reads.  Mafia players have bad games sometimes.

No, it's not. You could try to actually understand instead of being dismissive about it. Mafia players can have bad games, yes; they don't usually intentionally set themselves up for bad games.

Or they said "hey, let's both do this thing together, no one will think mafia partners would do such a coordinated push, that way if one of us is exiled the other will have a strong defense."

Then it's actually good play, right?  Well played MiX and McMc.  Well played.

Ah yes, the strong defense of "let's counterclaim math and also quickhammer and also sacrifice a buddy". Look at how much I fight in mcmc's behalf with Space: now why would I do that if he's scum? Yes, yes, WIFOM, but like, come one, we both know that what I did would just make Space scumread them more.

[faust]

This game is in need of an intervention.

How does MiX make sense as scum here? What, the scumteam just decided to get two members on a mission to push through a quickexile on D1? Come on. MiX and mcmc are seasoned players, and this is terrible play. No way it happens. Believing anything else is just wishful thinking.

Now come the people who will argue that "sure, that may be true, but if MiX is the Traitor then scum would not have been aware of having 2 people on the wagon". Yeah, great, so you case is that MiX can be exactly one scum role that we don't even know is in the game? Sounds to me like a good reason to not exile him.

Is your argument that bad play comes from town and not mafia?  Because that is how it reads.  Mafia players have bad games sometimes.

No, it's not. You could try to actually understand instead of being dismissive about it. Mafia players can have bad games, yes; they don't usually intentionally set themselves up for bad games.

Or they said "hey, let's both do this thing together, no one will think mafia partners would do such a coordinated push, that way if one of us is exiled the other will have a strong defense."

Then it's actually good play, right?  Well played MiX and McMc.  Well played.

Are you slipping that you know mafia has daychat?

[faust]

I know it's easier to believe that you're the genius who saw through scum ingenious plan than that you're wrong, but come on.

[faust]

I know it's easier to believe that you're the genius who saw through scum's ingenious plan than that you're wrong, but come on.

EBWOP

[MiX]

I know it's easier to believe that you're the genius who saw through scum ingenious plan than that you're wrong, but come on.

ash loves scumreading me when he's scum (and when he's awake), do you think this tunneling's scummy?

[faust]

I know it's easier to believe that you're the genius who saw through scum ingenious plan than that you're wrong, but come on.

ash loves scumreading me when he's scum (and when he's awake), do you think this tunneling's scummy?

Not really, it's ash. I was starting to scumread him for not stubbornly holding onto his beliefs until this happened.

[ashersky]

This game is in need of an intervention.

How does MiX make sense as scum here? What, the scumteam just decided to get two members on a mission to push through a quickexile on D1? Come on. MiX and mcmc are seasoned players, and this is terrible play. No way it happens. Believing anything else is just wishful thinking.

Now come the people who will argue that "sure, that may be true, but if MiX is the Traitor then scum would not have been aware of having 2 people on the wagon". Yeah, great, so you case is that MiX can be exactly one scum role that we don't even know is in the game? Sounds to me like a good reason to not exile him.

Is your argument that bad play comes from town and not mafia?  Because that is how it reads.  Mafia players have bad games sometimes.

No, it's not. You could try to actually understand instead of being dismissive about it. Mafia players can have bad games, yes; they don't usually intentionally set themselves up for bad games.

Or they said "hey, let's both do this thing together, no one will think mafia partners would do such a coordinated push, that way if one of us is exiled the other will have a strong defense."

Then it's actually good play, right?  Well played MiX and McMc.  Well played.

Are you slipping that you know mafia has daychat?

Yes.  I also earlier slipped that I'm the Role Cop.

[faust]

This game is in need of an intervention.

How does MiX make sense as scum here? What, the scumteam just decided to get two members on a mission to push through a quickexile on D1? Come on. MiX and mcmc are seasoned players, and this is terrible play. No way it happens. Believing anything else is just wishful thinking.

Now come the people who will argue that "sure, that may be true, but if MiX is the Traitor then scum would not have been aware of having 2 people on the wagon". Yeah, great, so you case is that MiX can be exactly one scum role that we don't even know is in the game? Sounds to me like a good reason to not exile him.

Is your argument that bad play comes from town and not mafia?  Because that is how it reads.  Mafia players have bad games sometimes.

No, it's not. You could try to actually understand instead of being dismissive about it. Mafia players can have bad games, yes; they don't usually intentionally set themselves up for bad games.

Or they said "hey, let's both do this thing together, no one will think mafia partners would do such a coordinated push, that way if one of us is exiled the other will have a strong defense."

Then it's actually good play, right?  Well played MiX and McMc.  Well played.

Are you slipping that you know mafia has daychat?

Yes.  I also earlier slipped that I'm the Role Cop.

Uhhh, spicy! Where was that?

[jotheonah]

Prior to my reminding anyone, no one had voted.  Since my reminder, players may be being careful; before that?  I doubt it.

Mafia wagons often stall is not terrible reasoning; it's a fairly normal argument that gets brought up often.  Mafia use it to their advantage often, especially in the early game, where it can be useful to have wagons that don't go anywhere on themselves.

MiX wagon stalling seems more likely to be because he is mafia than because he is town, regardless of any other external influences on voting.

Saying it stalled because too many players are AFK does not answer the question.

I personally would have voted MiX by now if not for him being at E-2 and it being the weekend and wanting to give everyone a chance to post before a quick day end.

[MiX]

Prior to my reminding anyone, no one had voted.  Since my reminder, players may be being careful; before that?  I doubt it.

Mafia wagons often stall is not terrible reasoning; it's a fairly normal argument that gets brought up often.  Mafia use it to their advantage often, especially in the early game, where it can be useful to have wagons that don't go anywhere on themselves.

MiX wagon stalling seems more likely to be because he is mafia than because he is town, regardless of any other external influences on voting.

Saying it stalled because too many players are AFK does not answer the question.

I personally would have voted MiX by now if not for him being at E-2 and it being the weekend and wanting to give everyone a chance to post before a quick day end.

Okay, okay, I'll act like I'm at E-1.

I'm the vig. Go read EoD1, I practically counterclaimed math's vig claim. That and everything I've been doing this whole game should verify that. Why do you think I was trying to get scumreads so openly? Why do you think I said it was a terrible EoD when both me and math were the wagons? Why do you think I played self-preservation so much? Why do you think I valued my life over math's? I thought this was obvious to everyone, including scum and Robz, but I guess not.

Anyway, Space is town because I used their reads (and Robz's, turns out when you can't explain a scumread it's even better) to kill mcmc. This I am sure of.

Now can we please not waste the second half of D2 voting a PR? Sadly I don't have great scumreads anymore, just solid townreads, but still, I'm sure there's 6 other town members that can find scum.

[jotheonah]

@faust: You're going to have more traction telling us we're wrong if you provide an alternate case/wagon. Frankly, I don't think we can rule out bad play from the scum team because the quickhammer was bad play and it happened.

Also, MiX was so close to being exiled. The only way it makes any sense for mcmc to hammer there the way he did was if he thought the alternative was losing a teammate.

And the vig claim, unfortunately, doesn't give MiX any town points in my book, if anything it's the opposite, though I suppose we should consider keeping him alive strategically if there's no counterclaim.

[MiX]

@faust: You're going to have more traction telling us we're wrong if you provide an alternate case/wagon. Frankly, I don't think we can rule out bad play from the scum team because the quickhammer was bad play and it happened.

Also, MiX was so close to being exiled. The only way it makes any sense for mcmc to hammer there the way he did was if he thought the alternative was losing a teammate.

And the vig claim, unfortunately, doesn't give MiX any town points in my book, if anything it's the opposite, though I suppose we should consider keeping him alive strategically if there's no counterclaim.

What the fuuuuuuuuuuck, of course I'm the vig, reread my entire day, reread D2 how many times was I close to claiming PR? At this point if I flip town you're gonna tell me I'm a death Godfather, that's how deep in the tunnel you are.

I killed mcmc, I'm the Vig, I counterclaimed math because I thought he was claiming either Roleblocker or Vig, and I decided to take my chances, that's why I said intent to make someone else hammer, that's why I bolded it, the only reason I would ever kill math like that (I even said I killed math, which is sorta true cause it was better him than me, especially in hindsight since I did shoot scum), everything I've done this game points to me being a PR and me being Vig.

What, you think I'm trying to get a counterclaim?? That's horrible, you know damn well scum!MiX doesn't go down like this. Honestly, go ahead, counterclaim me scum, lmao you'll just die now because I'm not getting exiled...because I'm the damn vig and that should be obvious. Who else interacted with people reading mcmc as much as me? Who else could've shot?

I cannot believe even after my claim people think I'm scum, I just can't, I thought I outed myself EoD1, and I presume that's what scum saw, and what Robz saw. You think the Bodyguard just died randomly? Come on!

Just go and reread D1 joth.

[MiX]

I'll just reread for you, that's how much I think you're town right now joth. Here's all the posts that say I'm a PR, some of them specifically a vig (some things are bolded):

I kinda really hate how there's barely any alternatives to math...oh and that I'm one of them.

Good job everyone. What a horrible EoD.

Okay, yes, I don't have a lot of scumreads.

Intent to make someone hammer math

MiX would never allow himself to do a play that locks him town!

You should have fullclaimed. Or not claimed to be a PR at all.

Well yeah I am cold. I just killed math. I could've died instead of taking the roleblocker, but I went all in on a read I got at the start of the game.

I hate this D1 so much. Good job scum.

And for D2:

Woah, both brother are dead. But hey, the vig got mcmc, hell yeah!

I need to setup the VC, I thought I was going to die, lol. I probably would've if Robz hadn't protected me, who knows.

Space's locktown, they were pushing mcmc all day long, just look back and see. Everything they said implied mcmc was scum.

So, where do we start today?

Words cannot describe what I'm feeling right now.

I'll brush it off as "I'm the counterwagon". Look at EoD1: I was playing self-pres all the way.

But me quoting that EoD1 was self-pres, I still thought math was town, I just quoted the scummiest post of his (in my mind) to convince myself that he could be scum, so I would have the drive to keep pushing on him. Before his flip, I didn't really have a strong enough scumread to want to push at EoD1, and even if I did, chances were I was getting exiled if math was saved, so I thought that essencially throwing math under the bus was right.

I'm town by the way, I can't believe anyone can see me as scum after what I did D1. Like, just reread D1 and I'm obviously town. It's kinda silly. Yes it's weird that I'm the one saying this, but it's true. It's just right there if you can read EoD1.

Like, okay, you can tell me I decided to claim vig sometime during D2, but it wasn't at the start, lol, so some of these D2 posts are relevant.


Do you want me to explain why I think these posts are evidence that I was at least thinking like a vig when I made them? Because I can explain all of them, I just think it's best if I don't do that immediately.

[faust]

And the vig claim, unfortunately, doesn't give MiX any town points in my book, if anything it's the opposite, though I suppose we should consider keeping him alive strategically if there's no counterclaim.

Lol are you insane?

[faust]

Vote: SpaceAnemone now that there is no longer a reason not to.

[faust]

@faust: You're going to have more traction telling us we're wrong if you provide an alternate case/wagon. Frankly, I don't think we can rule out bad play from the scum team because the quickhammer was bad play and it happened.

A quickhammer isn't bad play. It would have been decent if mcmc thought that mathdude might flip Traitor.

Also, MiX was so close to being exiled. The only way it makes any sense for mcmc to hammer there the way he did was if he thought the alternative was losing a teammate.

Obviously not.

[MiX]

Vote: SpaceAnemone now that there is no longer a reason not to.

Do you think my read's that bad?

And the vig claim, unfortunately, doesn't give MiX any town points in my book, if anything it's the opposite, though I suppose we should consider keeping him alive strategically if there's no counterclaim.

Lol are you insane?

Probably!

@faust: You're going to have more traction telling us we're wrong if you provide an alternate case/wagon. Frankly, I don't think we can rule out bad play from the scum team because the quickhammer was bad play and it happened.

A quickhammer isn't bad play. It would have been decent if mcmc thought that mathdude might flip Traitor.

Wait, wouldn't it be way worse if math was traitor?

[jotheonah]

Vig claim is 100% the go-to claim for scum in this game, especially now that they know there is one.

I swear, I will never understand this community's blind faith in obviously self-serving claims.

None of those quotes communicates a vig claim to me, and even if they did, scum would absolutely be setting up for a possible vig claim so it proves nothing.

[jotheonah]

I will grant that MiX has made the claim in a towny way, and that his current exasperation reads genuine.

[faust]

Vig claim is 100% the go-to claim for scum in this game, especially now that they know there is one.

I swear, I will never understand this community's blind faith in obviously self-serving claims.

None of those quotes communicates a vig claim to me, and even if they did, scum would absolutely be setting up for a possible vig claim so it proves nothing.

Look, if there is another vig then it's ideal for them to counterclaim now. If there isn't then MiX is IC.