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[Donald X.]

Wait, I'm a bit confused now.  Is there actually a practical difference in Noble Brigand?  Does "do its attack" mean its on-gain effect is now moatable?  Or is this just a different wording for the same effect?

Noble Brigand is not functionally different; it just has a different wording. You cannot Moat it when someone gains it; they didn't "play an Attack card."

[chipperMDW]

Noble Brigand: Action - Attack, $4
+$1
Buy this.
----------
When you buy this...

[faust]

Noble Brigand: Action - Attack, $4
+$1
Buy this.
----------
When you buy this...

That's not functionally the same though; in particular it interacts weirdly with Haggler, and it seems like you lose $4 and a buy upon playing it because that's how buying this usually works. And it's not clear that it would be Moat-able, because the attack is not due to the on-play effect.

[GendoIkari]

Noble Brigand: Action - Attack, $4
+$1
Buy this.
----------
When you buy this...

I'm assuming the "buy this" was not intended to be serious, just because it sounds silly. But replacing "buy this" with "follow the when you buy instructions" actually could have worked.

[chipperMDW]

I felt like adding "(Except nothing else sees you buy it and it's also an attack somehow)" would not achieve the goal of short text, resulting in the joke not making sense anymore.

[NoMoreFun]

Noble Brigand would have been fine with "when you buy this, you may play it". Getting $1 back on buy wouldn't make the card OP.

[D782802859]

That would be a functional change, though.

[LostPhoenix]

Why is everyone trying to come up with more alternate wordings? The card is being printed - it's not going to change.

[GendoIkari]

Noble Brigand would have been fine with "when you buy this, you may play it". Getting $1 back on buy wouldn't make the card OP.

This was talked about earlier in the thread... the power change seems fine, but playing a card before you gain it (and then gaining it after) seems very weird.

[scolapasta]

Noble Brigand would have been fine with "when you buy this, you may play it". Getting $1 back on buy wouldn't make the card OP.

This was talked about earlier in the thread... the power change seems fine, but playing a card before you gain it (and then gaining it after) seems very weird.

Is it that much more weird than some others things that already exist:
• Vassal, that plays (and puts into play) a card from Discard
• TR an Acting Troupe, which then plays a card that's in the trash.

So just seems like you would buy this, play it (moving it into the play area), then gain it, but it would stay in play area due to Lose Track / Stop Moving (I forget which name we like better these days) rule. Then get cleaned up like normal.

Alternatively, it could be (like Awaclus suggested):

When you buy this, you may play it from the Supply, leaving it there.

In this case, buy, play, but not move, then gain, as normal.

Actually, I think I prefer this alternative.

Why is everyone trying to come up with more alternate wordings? The card is being printed - it's not going to change.

I mean, what else are we going to do during this pandemic? 

[gambit05]

Why is everyone trying to come up with more alternate wordings? The card is being printed - it's not going to change.

I think they try to convince Donald that some more work could be done on Noble Brigand for "whatever reason".

Obv. a better fix would be to replace the card, but that isn't an option without an update pack, meaning replacing more cards. Maybe someday.

Who knows?

[mxdata]

Alternatively, it could be (like Awaclus suggested):

When you buy this, you may play it from the Supply, leaving it there.

In this case, buy, play, but not move, then gain, as normal.

Actually, I think I prefer this alternative.

That seems like it could be very confusing for casual players.  I think a lot of casual players would be confused by that, thinking "leaving it there" means the card doesn't go into their deck at all, since the idea of "buy" and "gain" as two separate events isn't really obvious.  So, they'd think "Wait, I pay for it and play it, but I don't get the card?"

[Donald X.]

Is it that much more weird than some others things that already exist:
• Vassal, that plays (and puts into play) a card from Discard
• TR an Acting Troupe, which then plays a card that's in the trash.

That general argument is not a great direction; maybe all the weird things are bad. Prior to hearing about this Noble Brigand change, you could have listed Noble Brigand there.

For both of those cases, the problematic thing is playing a card without requiring that it be around to put into play. And that would have been fixed, along with the errata to Inheritance etc., but the player backlash made me reconsider.

I mean, what else are we going to do during this pandemic? 

For sure; if it's a conversation people are enjoying, I don't need to stop it. Maybe someday it will be relevant to me phrasing some other card.

The "when you buy this, play it" direction sure isn't going anywhere. For that matter new cards are avoiding "when you buy this" period, as casual players do not sufficiently distinguish it from "when you gain this." Noble Brigand is when-buy because when-gain caused you to have to resolve some stuff in slow-mo (I play Jester, it hits Noble Brigand, who should gain this, but in the meantime other players have revealed their top cards). If I had to do the effect now, it would be like Villa: gained to hand, +1 Action, return to your action phase, and there you go, you can play it if you want to.

[stechafle]

In the OP Hoard is listed as a $5 cost. Is that a typo?

[crj]

My own least-bad suggestion for Noble Brigand:

Noble Brigand: Action - Attack, $4
+$1
Steal: each other player reveals the top 2 cards of their deck, trashes a revealed Silver or Gold you choose, discards the rest, and gains a Copper if they didn't reveal a Treasure. You gain the trashed cards.
----------
When you buy this, use it to Steal.

[Donald X.]

In the OP Hoard is listed as a $5 cost. Is that a typo?

Yes, fixed.

[Seprix]

- Noble Brigand has been rephrased so that it has a dividing line before the when-buy ability. To get the text to fit on the card, it says "do its attack"; this means, do the above-the-line part except for the +$1.

Noble Brigand: Action - Attack, $4
+$1
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of their deck, trashes a revealed Silver or Gold you choose, discards the rest, and gains a Copper if they didn't reveal a Treasure. You gain the trashed cards.
----------
When you buy this, do its attack.

Why??

I like the other tweaks, but I don't see the point of this.

It makes perfect sense. Like other on-gain/on-buy effects it is separated by a dividing line. Even more important, in our playing groups it happened more than once that we forgot this ability because it was hidden in a wall of text.

It's definitely going to cause more confusion about whether you can react with Moat etc. to buying Noble Brigand.

Just remind them that it's when you play an attack card. You're not playing it when you gain it.

[joefarebrother]

Noble Brigand: Action - Attack, $4
+$1
Buy this.
----------
When you buy this...

That's not functionally the same though; in particular it interacts weirdly with Haggler, and it seems like you lose $4 and a buy upon playing it because that's how buying this usually works. And it's not clear that it would be Moat-able, because the attack is not due to the on-play effect.

Black Market is proof that losing a buy is not an intrinsic part of buying something, it's just what you do to buy things in the buy phase - much like losing an action is not an intrinsic part of playing an action.

[pst]

Functional changes:
- Trader's reaction is now a when-gain rather than a when-would-gain; in most situations this isn't different, but it simplifies some confusing situations. This means that now any when-gain abilities of the gained card will still work, even if you exchange it for a Silver.

Also the effect in the new reaction text is that you "exchange" the card for Silver, whereas earlier it was "to instead gain a Silver". (Will buyers of Hinterlands get to know about what "exchange" means?). So it seems like you don't gain that Silver you get, so can't use when-gain abilities on that.

[Jeebus]

Also the effect in the new reaction text is that you "exchange" the card for Silver, whereas earlier it was "to instead gain a Silver". (Will buyers of Hinterlands get to know about what "exchange" means?). So it seems like you don't gain that Silver you get, so can't use when-gain abilities on that.

Yes, exchanging is not gaining, this is explained in the rulebooks for the sets with exchanging. (Donald stated in another thread that the rulebook notes on Trader will explain exchanging.)

[phyphor]

When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand, to exchange the card for a Silver.

No longer goes infinite when combined with Forum and a cost reducer. Probably for the best.

It does require a cost reducer (e.g. Highway), a card that gives benefit on buy (e.g. Goons), as well as Forum and Trader, being allowed to get sufficient cost-reducers and get the right cards in hand to pull off. It's not exactly very common.

It does also mean you can't, for example, top deck the silver with Watchtower, and various other changes.

[GendoIkari]

Noble Brigand: Action - Attack, $4
+$1
Buy this.
----------
When you buy this...

That's not functionally the same though; in particular it interacts weirdly with Haggler, and it seems like you lose $4 and a buy upon playing it because that's how buying this usually works. And it's not clear that it would be Moat-able, because the attack is not due to the on-play effect.

Black Market is proof that losing a buy is not an intrinsic part of buying something, it's just what you do to buy things in the buy phase - much like losing an action is not an intrinsic part of playing an action.

This is a good point, but it’s still true that the wording would cause that confusion with people being unsure about that.

[Jeebus]

Noble Brigand: Action - Attack, $4
+$1
Buy this.
----------
When you buy this...

That's not functionally the same though; in particular it interacts weirdly with Haggler, and it seems like you lose $4 and a buy upon playing it because that's how buying this usually works. And it's not clear that it would be Moat-able, because the attack is not due to the on-play effect.

In addition to the Haggler weirdness (when-buy) there's also the problem that buying leads to gaining - and that is intrinsic. The question is, can you gain a card that is already yours? If so, you would play Noble Brigand, then buy it, then gain it, putting it in your discard pile. And then when-gain stuff would trigger, like Innovation or  Cargo Ship!

[silverspawn]

I think "buy this" as part of an effect is clearly not a good idea.

[josqvin]

I don't understand why the infinite loop of trader/forum/cost reduction no longer works? The forum still goes back into the pile and you still get the buy back.