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[EFHW]

Hi everyone.  In the light of current events, I am getting less and less comfortable with our using lynch in our games. I have always noticed feeling uncomfortable when I tell someone else about how mafia works. I didn't feel moved to say anything about it here  until now, though. The dark flavor, evoking an angry mob, is part of the game, but referencing past tragedies in a playful way feels wrong. Can we find something else? It can still be dark and anarchic. Maybe something closer to mafia flavor, like "off" or "eliminate"? Or evoke the French Revolution, which is hopefully no longer a sensitive issue for people, and say "behead"?

[2.71828.....]

"head them off to the guillatine"

I would definitely be on board with a change.

[scolapasta]

I'm on board for the change.

If we want something less bloody there's always just "convict", since we are trying to bring the mafia to justice.

[Archetype]

I live in the Deep South and whenever I host IRL I almost never say “Lynch” for similar reasons. It definitely feels worse than when typing it out. I usually substitute with a generic “vote to kill someone” but even something unique to the flavor of the setup you’re playing could be fun.

[2.71828.....]

even something unique to the flavor of the setup you’re playing could be fun.

I like the idea that flavor of a game can change what the daily "kill by vote" could be called.

However, a commonly accepted generic term is also important

[Dylan32]

even something unique to the flavor of the setup you’re playing could be fun.

I like the idea that flavor of a game can change what the daily "kill by vote" could be called.

However, a commonly accepted generic term is also important

In my mind, the most seamless generic term would be just "eliminate."

Or (not serious alternative) we take them out for lunch.

[2.71828.....]

Or (not serious alternative) we take them out for lunch.

I mean, that is what I get on autocorrect all the time

[sudgy]

I am always against wording changes unless it's because the language itself has changed.  It alters history, increases cognitive overhead, and is a slippery slope.

In general, I don't like changing the words we use because they might seem "offensive".  Let's say we remove "lynch" entirely from the English language.  We might start forgetting about the awful things that happened in our past, which could cause us to not remember to not do them again in the future.  All history, both bad and good, must be preserved, and when we remove words, we are removing history, even if that's not your intention.

Changing words in general causes issues with the way we think.  We have to constantly remind ourselves to use the "correct" term.  I also know that some people here have written scripts to automate things like vote counts.  People are going to have to change their scripts, or worse, forget to change them, and possibly get incorrect counts.  I prefer consistency over fluid names.

If we change lynch, shouldn't we also change the cop role because of recent events?  Maybe we should rename doctor because it might bring back memories of covid-19.  When you start changing names, everything can change, compounding the above issues.

I'm sure all of you will just say that these are petty things and that I'm just stupid (or euphemistic words such as "misguided", but those are the same thing here).  Anyway, I've said my piece.  I'm not going to reply because I've learned that political discussions are completely fruitless and are a waste of time, effort, energy, and emotions.  Also, I feel like this thread either belongs in RSP or will need to go there soon.

[2.71828.....]

While I agree a large portion of this conversation does belong in RSP, I think one of the biggest things that I would argue (disagree?) with EFHW over in the OP is the phrase "in light of recent events"

Lynch mobs, public lynching, "insert word here" lynch refers to and (to the best of my knowledge which is limited at best) always has referred to extra-legal mob justice. I do not think that this accurately describes what occurs in a game of mafia. It is much more a public hearing of the lawfully gathered to find and destroy a nefarious enemy that has infiltrated town. Almost as though we are the assembled village elders doling out justice (that we sometimes get wrong). So in that sense, "Lynch" does not apply at all by any definition that I have ever heard for the word.

Basically, changing the vocabulary we use in mafia would simply be agreeing on a word that more accurately describes the situation.

[Archetype]

Changing words in general causes issues with the way we think.  We have to constantly remind ourselves to use the "correct" term.  I also know that some people here have written scripts to automate things like vote counts.  People are going to have to change their scripts, or worse, forget to change them, and possibly get incorrect counts.  I prefer consistency over fluid names.

I am unsure how any vote count scripts would receive incorrect counts. I believe that would only happen if there was inconsistency around the specific wording for Vote:.

I understand the desire to preserve history, especially for games meant to model history. However, I think that how we play Mafia here now has already gotten away from the original historical reference which I think does make this a valid discussion to have (even if it may end up being RSP).

[Dylan32]

Changing words in general causes issues with the way we think.  We have to constantly remind ourselves to use the "correct" term.  I also know that some people here have written scripts to automate things like vote counts.  People are going to have to change their scripts, or worse, forget to change them, and possibly get incorrect counts.  I prefer consistency over fluid names.

I am unsure how any vote count scripts would receive incorrect counts. I believe that would only happen if there was inconsistency around the specific wording for Vote:.

I understand the desire to preserve history, especially for games meant to model history. However, I think that how we play Mafia here now has already gotten away from the original historical reference which I think does make this a valid discussion to have (even if it may end up being RSP).

The counts might not be incorrect, but the script writers would still have to go in and edit them to correct the output which usually would include a phrase like "with x alive, it takes y to lynch." Also "Vote: No lynch" would have to be changed.  So there is some work that would be involved on that side of things.

[Archetype]

Changing words in general causes issues with the way we think.  We have to constantly remind ourselves to use the "correct" term.  I also know that some people here have written scripts to automate things like vote counts.  People are going to have to change their scripts, or worse, forget to change them, and possibly get incorrect counts.  I prefer consistency over fluid names.

I am unsure how any vote count scripts would receive incorrect counts. I believe that would only happen if there was inconsistency around the specific wording for Vote:.

I understand the desire to preserve history, especially for games meant to model history. However, I think that how we play Mafia here now has already gotten away from the original historical reference which I think does make this a valid discussion to have (even if it may end up being RSP).

The counts might not be incorrect, but the script writers would still have to go in and edit them to correct the output which usually would include a phrase like "with x alive, it takes y to lynch." Also "Vote: No lynch" would have to be changed.  So there is some work that would be involved on that side of things.

You’re correct that no lynch would need to be changed, but I didn’t disagree about whether other non “counts” wording changes would need to be made.

[Dylan32]

Yeah I think I read into your comment more than what is actually there with how I phrased my response, like you were saying that the vocab change wouldn't actually necessitate changing the scripts because the counts would still be right.  I see that wasn't at all what you were saying, so sorry about that.

[Archetype]

Yeah I think I read into your comment more than what is actually there with how I phrased my response, like you were saying that the vocab change wouldn't actually necessitate changing the scripts because the counts would still be right.  I see that wasn't at all what you were saying, so sorry about that.

You’re all good! The No Lynch choice is still a good point to raise.

[Awaclus]

Well, Mafia is a game of extrajudicial killings, which is inherently a very disgusting, uncomfortable and unacceptable thing. It isn't just past tragedies either, it's a thing that still happens. I'm not opposed to revamping the flavor of the game such that players can feel more comfortable — I am, however, strictly opposed to making extrajudicial killings seem more comfortable by changing just the language, as if the string of letters that is "lynch" is bad but we're totally okay with unlawful executions in general.

[cayvie]

Well, Mafia is a game of extrajudicial killings, which is inherently a very disgusting, uncomfortable and unacceptable thing. It isn't just past tragedies either, it's a thing that still happens. I'm not opposed to revamping the flavor of the game such that players can feel more comfortable — I am, however, strictly opposed to making extrajudicial killings seem more comfortable by changing just the language, as if the string of letters that is "lynch" is bad but we're totally okay with unlawful executions in general.

I mean it doesn't have to be about that, though. Replacing it with "Exile" for example.

[EFHW]

We also want this to be an inclusive environment,  so something less freighted with our country's racist past and present could help. The recent events are relevant in that they tipped me past the threshold of deciding to say something.

[EFHW]

The game really does have an odd mix of judicial/extrajudicial in it. "Lynch" and "wagon" evoke an angry mob, mob also is another word for mafia, and we have civilized votes and rules everyone follows! And a civility pledge!

I disagree that cop or doctor come anywhere near the provocation that the word lynch can cause.

The death aspect seems like it may be important.  A macabre dark humor we play with. We could use death sentence or sentence to death instead of lynch. Mistrial instead of no lynch.

[Awaclus]

A trial would be fun, like Danganronpa.

[scolapasta]

The game really does have an odd mix of judicial/extrajudicial in it. "Lynch" and "wagon" evoke an angry mob, mob also is another word for mafia, and we have civilized votes and rules everyone follows! And a civility pledge!

I disagree that cop or doctor come anywhere near the provocation that the word lynch can cause.

The death aspect seems like it may be important.  A macabre dark humor we play with. We could use death sentence or sentence to death instead of lynch. Mistrial instead of no lynch.

That's why I like vote to convict. Convicting someone leads to twilight, governor can pardon, and if they don't then they get the death sentence, leading to night.

[faust]

The death aspect seems like it may be important.  A macabre dark humor we play with. We could use death sentence or sentence to death instead of lynch. Mistrial instead of no lynch.

I am happy to change the word "lynch" if it makes people feel more comfortable, however I don't find a death sentence any more moral than a lynching, and I believe it is similarly racially charged when looking at the US.

[faust]

Well, Mafia is a game of extrajudicial killings, which is inherently a very disgusting, uncomfortable and unacceptable thing. It isn't just past tragedies either, it's a thing that still happens. I'm not opposed to revamping the flavor of the game such that players can feel more comfortable — I am, however, strictly opposed to making extrajudicial killings seem more comfortable by changing just the language, as if the string of letters that is "lynch" is bad but we're totally okay with unlawful executions in general.

I mean it doesn't have to be about that, though. Replacing it with "Exile" for example.

So I think my vote goes to this proposal.

Vote: Exile

[Joseph2302]

Can someone explain why lynch is considered offensive? I see it as a reference to witch trials like Salem, which doesn't have any racial connotations. Maybe it means something racial in other countries

[Awaclus]

Can someone explain why lynch is considered offensive? I see it as a reference to witch trials like Salem, which doesn't have any racial connotations. Maybe it means something racial in other countries

It doesn't mean anything racial, there just were a lot of racist lynchings in burgerland.

[WestCoastDidds]

Can someone explain why lynch is considered offensive? I see it as a reference to witch trials like Salem, which doesn't have any racial connotations. Maybe it means something racial in other countries

Lynching is a really problematic past in the US. Blacks people were regularly accused of crimes that they didn’t commit, or just not being deferent enough to the people who had power over them, rounded up and hanged. It was often like a neighborhood party, everyone watched, including children. Picnics below a swinging body. Then photographs were taken and circulated. And this was long, long ago....this was still happening in our recent past. There are some older folks who remember attending. It is a term profoundly wrapped up in an ugly, violent, murderous, racist history and to this day used as a threat, and felt as a threat in black communities. So, George Floyd, being kneeled on while others looked on....modern day lynching.

I am 1000x behind his change. Whenever I’m talking to my kids about what is happening in a game, I change the words. Voted them off the island is what I say, because they know Survivor. I’m okay with anything, though.

Regardless of whether or not we change collectively, I will.