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Author Topic: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events  (Read 58168 times)

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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #175 on: March 19, 2020, 07:27:08 pm »
+1

Way of the Mouse with Vassal set aside can indeed cause many new things.  Note that Crown doesn't work in that deck you created, it doesn't do anything when you play it and it's not your turn.

Ha, playing Crown on an opponent’s turn would be hilarious. You could also now play Crown during your Cleanup or Night phase. Or in between turns; during Donate resolving.

How can you play it during Cleanup?

You can do it during your own Donate via Market Square and Sheepdog right? I haven't spotted a way to do it during another player's Donate.

For your opponent's Donate, they trash Hunting Ground, gaining a Duchy.  You react with Black Cat playing Moused Vassal

Still not sure how to play it during Clean-Up
« Last Edit: March 19, 2020, 07:59:48 pm by mxdata »
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #176 on: March 19, 2020, 08:06:01 pm »
+1

Way of the Mouse with Vassal set aside can indeed cause many new things.  Note that Crown doesn't work in that deck you created, it doesn't do anything when you play it and it's not your turn.

Ha, playing Crown on an opponent’s turn would be hilarious. You could also now play Crown during your Cleanup or Night phase. Or in between turns; during Donate resolving.

How can you play it during Cleanup?

You can do it during your own Donate via Market Square and Sheepdog right? I haven't spotted a way to do it during another player's Donate.

For your opponent's Donate, they trash Hunting Ground, gaining a Duchy.  You react with Black Cat playing Moused Vassal

Still not sure how to play it during Clean-Up

Oh, wait, I got it - play Hermit, don't buy anything.  During Clean-Up, you trash it and gain a Madman.  Then you respond to the gaining with Sheepdog playing Moused Vassal
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #177 on: March 19, 2020, 08:30:59 pm »
+2

Right. Also Improve lets you gain a card in Clean-up. But Innovation also let you play gained cards in Clean-up.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2020, 08:45:53 pm by Jeebus »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #178 on: March 20, 2020, 01:21:23 pm »
+2

Way of the Mouse with Vassal set aside can indeed cause many new things.  Note that Crown doesn't work in that deck you created, it doesn't do anything when you play it and it's not your turn.

Ha, playing Crown on an opponent’s turn would be hilarious. You could also now play Crown during your Cleanup or Night phase. Or in between turns; during Donate resolving.

How can you play it during Cleanup?

You can do it during your own Donate via Market Square and Sheepdog right? I haven't spotted a way to do it during another player's Donate.

For your opponent's Donate, they trash Hunting Ground, gaining a Duchy.  You react with Black Cat playing Moused Vassal

Still not sure how to play it during Clean-Up

Oh, wait, I got it - play Hermit, don't buy anything.  During Clean-Up, you trash it and gain a Madman.  Then you respond to the gaining with Sheepdog playing Moused Vassal

Nice one. I think I was thinking of cards that get played when you discard them, but of course those all say "except during Clean-Up" so that doesn't work. But Hermit does, yeah.
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Gherald

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #179 on: March 20, 2020, 02:15:10 pm »
+3

It's as if cards may now be played on a menagerie of occasions 8)
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estwdjhn

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #180 on: March 21, 2020, 07:02:51 am »
0

I like that the Events shown here can all make a pretty big impact. I'm sure Toil can be used in some kind of pseudo-infinite loop.
Setup: enough bridges to reduce cost by 5, have $2, Throne Room, Market in hand, Throne Room, Market in discard (no card in draw pile)
1) Buy Toil, play TR, play Market twice (draw TR, Market, get $2)
2) Buy TR, Market
Back to 1)

It's not really infinite - you'll piledrive the thronerooms and markets, when the first one of these goes that's the end of the loop. It probably is a game ending megaturn, but the set up might take some doing...
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #181 on: March 21, 2020, 01:47:50 pm »
0

So this means that it has the same timing as Enchantress? You can choose to resolve Enchantress first and then the Way, meaning that the Way "wins". Or you can choose to do it the other way around, but the result would be the same as not choosing the Way at all.
It's the same timing as Enchantress; obv. you will choose to have the Way "win."

Since you've given up on the other thread, I'll try asking this here. Is it like I wrote above, that you apply Enchantress first and then the Way, so that the Way "overwrites" Enchantress? Or is it rather, you apply the Way first, and then Enchantress tries but fails to do anything? Thanks.

Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #182 on: March 22, 2020, 04:11:16 pm »
+3

So this means that it has the same timing as Enchantress? You can choose to resolve Enchantress first and then the Way, meaning that the Way "wins". Or you can choose to do it the other way around, but the result would be the same as not choosing the Way at all.
It's the same timing as Enchantress; obv. you will choose to have the Way "win."

Since you've given up on the other thread, I'll try asking this here. Is it like I wrote above, that you apply Enchantress first and then the Way, so that the Way "overwrites" Enchantress? Or is it rather, you apply the Way first, and then Enchantress tries but fails to do anything? Thanks.
Two things need to happen at the same time: Enchantress's effect and applying a Way. Pick one to do first. Either one replaces following the card's instructions with something else, and then the other one doesn't do anything - there's no "following the card's instructions" left to replace. Since the Way is optional, in practice if you don't want the Way you'll just resolve Enchantress and not get the Way involved, and if you want the Way you'll do it and then Enchantress doesn't bother you.
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #183 on: March 22, 2020, 06:02:00 pm »
0

Two things need to happen at the same time: Enchantress's effect and applying a Way. Pick one to do first. Either one replaces following the card's instructions with something else, and then the other one doesn't do anything - there's no "following the card's instructions" left to replace. Since the Way is optional, in practice if you don't want the Way you'll just resolve Enchantress and not get the Way involved, and if you want the Way you'll do it and then Enchantress doesn't bother you.

Thanks. Does Way of the Chameleon also override Enchantress this way? It seems to me that with Chameleon you're following the card's instructions when Enchantress tries to replace them (and then Chameleon kicks in whenever you get to +Cards or +$). Otherwise I guess it means that Chameleon replaces the instructions with different ones right then, so that you're not following the card's actual instructions any more. But even saying that, what about playing a card with no +Cards or +$, like Chapel? Then you're not following different instructions, so Enchantress should be able to replace them?

Edit: Last sentence withdrawn.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 10:56:45 am by Jeebus »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #184 on: March 22, 2020, 06:46:25 pm »
+1

But even saying that, what about playing a card with no +Cards or +$, like Chapel? Then you're not following different instructions, so Enchantress should be able to replace them?

At the least, whether the instructions contain all the same words or not shouldn’t be a consideration when deciding whether they are the “same” instructions. “Same” instructions should be defined by some intrinsic property of the instruction (what created the instruction, when it was created, etc) that doesn’t care about what words are in it. 
« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 07:14:06 pm by GendoIkari »
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #185 on: March 22, 2020, 07:46:28 pm »
0

But even saying that, what about playing a card with no +Cards or +$, like Chapel? Then you're not following different instructions, so Enchantress should be able to replace them?

At the least, whether the instructions contain all the same words or not shouldn’t be a consideration when deciding whether they are the “same” instructions. “Same” instructions should be defined by some intrinsic property of the instruction (what created the instruction, when it was created, etc) that doesn’t care about what words are in it.

Hmm, I guess you're right about that. With an Enchanted Pearl Diver I think we're not following the card's instructions anymore.
So I'll take back the sentence quoted above about Chapel.

Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #186 on: March 23, 2020, 02:30:28 pm »
+4

Thanks. Does Way of the Chameleon also override Enchantress this way? It seems to me that with Chameleon you're following the card's instructions when Enchantress tries to replace them (and then Chameleon kicks in whenever you get to +Cards or +$). Otherwise I guess it means that Chameleon replaces the instructions with different ones right then, so that you're not following the card's actual instructions any more.
Way of the Chameleon also overrides Enchantress.

Let's see the card text for Enchantress.

"Until your next turn, the first time each other player plays an Action card on their turn, they get +1 Card and +1 Action instead of following its instructions.
At the start of your next turn, +2 Cards."

Enchantress looks for something very specific. It only does its thing the first time you play an Action card, instead of following its instructions.

With Way of the Chameleon, we replaced that with something else. The something else happens around the same time, and also involves following the instructions... but it's something else. It's not what Enchantress was referring to. So Enchantress still doesn't happen.

It's Ironworks all over again.
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #187 on: March 23, 2020, 04:06:49 pm »
0

Now that I'm understanding the order of operations, I think the reply below might not have been a complete answer:

Lantern modifies what happens due to following the instructions on Border Guard. With Enchantress in effect, you ignore those instructions, so Lantern does nothing.

Yes, with Enchantress in effect, you are ignoring the instructions, so Lantern does nothing. But the question remains: What if you apply Lantern before Enchantress? Are you then ignoring the instructions so that Enchantress can't find the very specific thing it's looking for?

Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #188 on: March 24, 2020, 03:08:34 am »
+2

Now that I'm understanding the order of operations, I think the reply below might not have been a complete answer:

Lantern modifies what happens due to following the instructions on Border Guard. With Enchantress in effect, you ignore those instructions, so Lantern does nothing.

Yes, with Enchantress in effect, you are ignoring the instructions, so Lantern does nothing. But the question remains: What if you apply Lantern before Enchantress? Are you then ignoring the instructions so that Enchantress can't find the very specific thing it's looking for?
Lantern never gets involved; we never reach the point at which Lantern would do anything.
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Doom_Shark

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #189 on: March 24, 2020, 12:56:49 pm »
0

Now that I'm understanding the order of operations, I think the reply below might not have been a complete answer:

Lantern modifies what happens due to following the instructions on Border Guard. With Enchantress in effect, you ignore those instructions, so Lantern does nothing.

Yes, with Enchantress in effect, you are ignoring the instructions, so Lantern does nothing. But the question remains: What if you apply Lantern before Enchantress? Are you then ignoring the instructions so that Enchantress can't find the very specific thing it's looking for?
Lantern never gets involved; we never reach the point at which Lantern would do anything.

So I was right in the rules thread; lantern is timed as when-would-reveal, not when-would-resolve.
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