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Author Topic: Menagerie Previews 2: Horses  (Read 26571 times)

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Donald X.

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Menagerie Previews 2: Horses
« on: March 03, 2020, 03:00:05 am »
+33

Horse is a non-supply pile. There are 30 of them. You get one via a card saying "gain a Horse" or something. If the pile is empty you can't gain one, but let's hope that doesn't happen much. Horse looks like this:



So Horse is a one-use Laboratory; it puts you up a card and then is gone. Or, you know, you don't have to play it; you can Remodel it or something. It's there for you. Once in your deck, it's just like Experiment, from Renaissance; it turns out, they were experimenting on Horses. Eight total kingdom cards use Horses, and four landscapes. Here are some of those kingdom cards.



Supplies is an easy one: when you play it, you get a Horse. The Horse goes onto your deck, so normally you'll just start with it next turn.

Scrap gives you a choice of bonuses, with more stuff for trashing a more expensive card. You could for example trash an Estate and get +1 Card and +1 Action, or trash a Horse and get +1 Buy, a Silver, and a Horse.

Livery makes everything that's expensive enough come with a Horse that turn. This works on cards you buy, or cards you get other ways. With two Liveries, everything comes with two Horses. With two Liveries, and you buy Farmland, trashing Remodel to gain a Border Village which comes with a Laboratory, you gain six Horses. Many Horses could be yours.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 2: Horses
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2020, 03:06:39 am »
+2

So now we have "a different thing" as well. But couldn't you have just used the Courtier wording? Like, trash a card from your hand, per $1 it costs, choose one, the choices must be different? I feel as if "a different thing" is kinda informal and inconsistent with other cards.

I'm still a fan of these cards though. Looking forward to Menagerie's release!
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Re: Menagerie Previews 2: Horses
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2020, 03:11:32 am »
0

So now we have "a different thing" as well. But couldn't you have just used the Courtier wording? Like, trash a card from your hand, per $1 it costs, choose one, the choices must be different? I feel as if "a different thing" is kinda informal and inconsistent with other cards.

I'm still a fan of these cards though. Looking forward to Menagerie's release!

i would guess to save the space.
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Previews 2: Horses
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2020, 03:17:09 am »
+3

So now we have "a different thing" as well. But couldn't you have just used the Courtier wording? Like, trash a card from your hand, per $1 it costs, choose one, the choices must be different? I feel as if "a different thing" is kinda informal and inconsistent with other cards.
I don't know if there was a reason; it sure looks like Courtier's text would fit. It got this wording and this wording seemed fine; the usual story when people want the story of the wording.
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Wizard_Amul

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Re: Menagerie Previews 2: Horses
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2020, 03:19:26 am »
+2

First thoughts:

Supplies: This could be useful for guaranteeing a good next turn if you have key cards you need to kick off a turn with; however, coppers in your deck make your deck less reliable, so it's kind of at odds with what you want to use it for. Actually, that makes it great if you can somehow gain and play it on the same turn. It's great with Storyteller.

Scrap: It's a pretty reasonable trash for benefit card. It's particularly good with gold gainers, as you can get all 6 options.

Livery: As far as terminal gold goes, it's quite good if you have the terminal space and want to get expensive cost cards. It's good with Port, Talisman, Rats, Ironworks, Horn of Plenty, Charm, etc. It makes it even easier to pull off a Horn of Plenty megaturn in particular. The fact that it gives you 3 coins means you'll almost always be able to afford a 4 cost card, so you should rarely fail to activate the condition.
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faust

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Re: Menagerie Previews 2: Horses
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2020, 03:49:22 am »
+1

So I suppose "from the X pile" is now officially phased out as wording for non-supply cards?

Livery is proof that we will never see a card that increases the cost of things, as otherwise it could gain the entire Horse pile.

Nice touch that all the cards using Horses also have Horses in their artwork.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2020, 03:50:38 am by faust »
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Re: Menagerie Previews 2: Horses
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2020, 03:53:19 am »
+2

Supplies is a Peddler.

Scrap seems like a top 5 $3. +1 card +$1 is comparable tempo to Masquerade and it has a lot more flexibility, but it's a bit more likely to miss Estate.

Livery doesn't seem crazy good but it should be playable for sure. It's better than Gold as long as +actions are easier to get than +cards.

Livery is proof that we will never see a card that increases the cost of things, as otherwise it could gain the entire Horse pile.

The fact that cost reduction exists seems like better proof. You would need unreasonably complex rules to solve all the interactions between existing cost reducing cards and hypothetical cost increasing cards, which is a bigger deal than being able to gain an entire pile, which already happens with e.g. Forum and cost reduction.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2020, 03:58:13 am by Awaclus »
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 2: Horses
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2020, 03:54:18 am »
0

So I suppose "from the X pile" is now officially phased out as wording for non-supply cards?

Livery is proof that we will never see a card that increases the cost of things, as otherwise it could gain the entire Horse pile.

Nice touch that all the cards using Horses also have Horses in their artwork.

Yeah, that was part of the 2019 errata, it's now considered part of the base rules that if a card specifies to gain a specific non-supply card that it comes from the X pile
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Re: Menagerie Previews 2: Horses
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2020, 03:56:03 am »
+1

Scrap: It's a pretty reasonable trash for benefit card. It's particularly good with gold gainers, as you can get all 6 options.
Scrap is decent as an Estate trasher, but I doubt it's good enough to warrant building a TfB engine around it. If you have Scrap + Gold, you get all the options, and lose your Gold. By comparison, if you hold Market Square + Gold, you miss out on the Silver + Horse, but you get to keep the Gold and make an extra +2$.
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 2: Horses
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2020, 03:59:17 am »
0

Supplies is a Peddler.

Scrap seems like a top 5 $3. +1 card +$1 is comparable tempo to Masquerade and it has a lot more flexibility, but it's a bit more likely to miss Estate.

Livery doesn't seem crazy good but it should be playable for sure. It's better than Gold as long as +actions are easier to get than +cards.

Supplies isn't really a Peddler, since the draw is typically on the next turn, rather than on the same turn, barring things like Storyteller or Black Market that let you spend coins during your Action phase
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Re: Menagerie Previews 2: Horses
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2020, 04:18:29 am »
+2

Supplies isn't really a Peddler, since the draw is typically on the next turn, rather than on the same turn, barring things like Storyteller or Black Market that let you spend coins during your Action phase

If you're drawing your deck every turn, it's just a Copper for one turn but then it becomes marginally strictly better than Peddler for the rest of the game. If you're not drawing your deck every turn, you might be able to play the Horse the same shuffle you played the Supplies, in which case the delay doesn't affect your average turn, only makes them more uneven which slightly helps you spike high cost things on the Horse turn. If you're not drawing your deck and you draw Supplies on the last turn of your shuffle, then it's noticeably worse.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 2: Horses
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2020, 06:35:09 am »
+2

If you trash a silver with scrap, you have 20 different options total. Without having tried it in the client, I assume you choose consecutively since the interface can't really list 20 things.

edit: nicely done!
« Last Edit: March 03, 2020, 06:40:10 am by silverspawn »
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crj

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Re: Menagerie Previews 2: Horses
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2020, 08:29:41 am »
+2

Scrap: It's a pretty reasonable trash for benefit card. It's particularly good with gold gainers, as you can get all 6 options.
If you have a gold gainer, you don't want all 6 options...
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Re: Menagerie Previews 2: Horses
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2020, 08:43:01 am »
0

If you use Scrap on Animal Fair (cost 7), do you get just the 6 things, or do you get something twice in that case?
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Re: Menagerie Previews 2: Horses
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2020, 08:44:02 am »
0

If you use Scrap on Animal Fair (cost 7), do you get just the 6 things, or do you get something twice in that case?

Just the six things.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 2: Horses
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2020, 09:06:20 am »
0

Is this the first time we've had instructions to gain a non-supply card without saying where to gain it from? I assume it will be explained in the rulebook, but I can foresee it making it harder to explain non-supply cards to new players.

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Re: Menagerie Previews 2: Horses
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2020, 09:07:47 am »
+9

Once in your deck, it's just like Experiment, from Renaissance; it turns out, they were experimenting on Horses.

Is this official Dominion canon? I love the idea that the experiments and labs were for creating a better horse.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 2: Horses
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2020, 09:49:21 am »
+4

Is this the first time we've had instructions to gain a non-supply card without saying where to gain it from? I assume it will be explained in the rulebook, but I can foresee it making it harder to explain non-supply cards to new players.

kinda sorta - first time in print following the 2019 errata, where this was codified as the new norm; however it's been this way on the web client since the changes for that errata went in

trivialknot

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Re: Menagerie Previews 2: Horses
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2020, 10:14:23 am »
0

Can you choose the order of the bonuses of Scrap?
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Re: Menagerie Previews 2: Horses
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2020, 10:20:31 am »
0

Can you choose the order of the bonuses of Scrap?

No, they happen in the printed order. Same as Pawn, etc.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 2: Horses
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2020, 10:24:47 am »
0

So now we have "a different thing" as well. But couldn't you have just used the Courtier wording? Like, trash a card from your hand, per $1 it costs, choose one, the choices must be different? I feel as if "a different thing" is kinda informal and inconsistent with other cards.
I don't know if there was a reason; it sure looks like Courtier's text would fit. It got this wording and this wording seemed fine; the usual story when people want the story of the wording.

New wording seems better. Shorter and just as clear.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 2: Horses
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2020, 10:27:47 am »
+3

Supplies isn't really a Peddler, since the draw is typically on the next turn, rather than on the same turn, barring things like Storyteller or Black Market that let you spend coins during your Action phase

If you're drawing your deck every turn, it's just a Copper for one turn but then it becomes marginally strictly better than Peddler for the rest of the game. If you're not drawing your deck every turn, you might be able to play the Horse the same shuffle you played the Supplies, in which case the delay doesn't affect your average turn, only makes them more uneven which slightly helps you spike high cost things on the Horse turn. If you're not drawing your deck and you draw Supplies on the last turn of your shuffle, then it's noticeably worse.

Supplies is like Caravan Guard; except instead of the being moved to next turn, it's the +card that's moved to next turn. And of course the fact that it's not a Duration means you could play it every turn.
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trivialknot

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Re: Menagerie Previews 2: Horses
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2020, 10:36:48 am »
+1

Can you choose the order of the bonuses of Scrap?

No, they happen in the printed order. Same as Pawn, etc.
I do not believe that is true of Pawn according to the rulebook--not that it matters, anyway.  It is true of Trusty Steed.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 2: Horses
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2020, 11:26:30 am »
+1

Can you choose the order of the bonuses of Scrap?

No, they happen in the printed order. Same as Pawn, etc.
I do not believe that is true of Pawn according to the rulebook--not that it matters, anyway.  It is true of Trusty Steed.

It's definitely true of Pawn, but it may never matter.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 2: Horses
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2020, 11:56:04 am »
0

Eight kingdom cards give Horses, out of a total of 30 cards, plus four landscape cards out of a total of 40.  So, in games with only Menagerie, the chances of having nothing that gives Horses will be very low.  This will give Menagerie games a different feel to them than non-Menagerie games, it seems, as you'll typically tend to have larger effective handsizes
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