Dominion > Game Reports

Horse Traders + Duke/Duchy

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Geronimoo:

--- Quote from: Superdad on June 29, 2011, 09:43:26 am ---Am I missing something? ...
Couldn't a province empty strategy get all 8 provinces by the time the duke/duchy hit say 6/6 duke/duchy? That would be 64-67 points (for the province player) vs 54-58 points (depending on #estates).

--- End quote ---
It seems you're missing a Province is worth 6 VP and not 8 ;)

Superdad:
Oops thanks, I had money on the brain!

So it's closer than I thought. Has anyone done an average-turns analysis to see what the best counter to duke/duchy is? Either fight him on duchy/duke, or just race to empty provinces.

My gut still tells me that helping him 3-pile sooner is only benefiting him. I mean, he started duchy on turn 3, so if you mirror his strat, you are certainly behind him. Maybe rushing a province finish could lose, but I think mirroring his duchy strat is a sure-loss.

Even simple big-money is looking at 4 provinces by around turn 16 or so. Most big-money + some support strategies are looking at 4 provinces by around turn 14. The duke/duchy player seems to be hitting 50ish points by turn 23, and will stall out hard past that.

What is the average turn for an 8-province empty unassisted using a typical big-money + support card strategy? I'm thinking it has to be in the range of 22 turns?

WanderingWinder:

--- Quote from: Superdad on June 29, 2011, 09:43:26 am ---In both of these sample games, wouldn't simply going for a province pile empty counter this? It looks like having the opponent try to counter by buying dukes/duchy is actually helping him, because the game ends faster on 3-piles. His turn 1 copper, turn 3 duchy deck would certainly be countered more effectively by letting it stall out longer and just racing him on provinces.

The games are going to turn 20-23h... if instead the opponent just went for a province empty, they could easily have 6+ provinces at this point, with the HT/Duke/Duchy opponent having a much weaker overall deck.

Sure, his later dukes are getting stronger if he is allowed to take them all, but he will still have a hard time getting to $5 regularly, even with HT. Meanwhile, even a pure big money strategy could empty provinces fairly close to this point.

Am I missing something? It seems to me that the opponents did him a favor when they fought him on dukes/duchy, because they ended the game before his deck REALLY stalled out.

For a comparison... how long would a duke/duchy/Horse trader strategy take to 3-pile Duke/Duchy/Estate without assistance from the opponent? I'm willing to bet it is upwards of turn 30.

Couldn't a province empty strategy get all 8 provinces by the time the duke/duchy hit say 6/6 duke/duchy? That would be 48-51 points (for the province player) vs 54-58 points (depending on #estates).

/edit... it's closer than I thought... I had miscalc'd the provinces at 8 points each! 

--- End quote ---
Even without HT, Duke/Duchy is going to beat straight-up big money going for provinces the vast majority of the time. The thing is, Big money decks aren't so geared to getting all 8 provinces, and they tend to gum up rather a lot. It's much easier to hit $5 11 times than it is to hit $8 8 times. So a big money deck can't really hit 6 provinces that fast I don't think, but even if it can, it's going to have a heck of a time making it to 8 quick enough. And the HT is going to help the Duke player, though most other cards, admittedly, will help the Province rusher.

WanderingWinder:

--- Quote from: Superdad on June 29, 2011, 10:03:37 am ---Oops thanks, I had money on the brain!

So it's closer than I thought. Has anyone done an average-turns analysis to see what the best counter to duke/duchy is? Either fight him on duchy/duke, or just race to empty provinces.

My gut still tells me that helping him 3-pile sooner is only benefiting him. I mean, he started duchy on turn 3, so if you mirror his strat, you are certainly behind him. Maybe rushing a province finish could lose, but I think mirroring his duchy strat is a sure-loss.

Even simple big-money is looking at 4 provinces by around turn 16 or so. Most big-money + some support strategies are looking at 4 provinces by around turn 14. The duke/duchy player seems to be hitting 50ish points by turn 23, and will stall out hard past that.

What is the average turn for an 8-province empty unassisted using a typical big-money + support card strategy? I'm thinking it has to be in the range of 22 turns?

--- End quote ---
To answer your last question, it's about 25.7 turns without getting anything other than basic money and provinces. With support, it's faster obviously, but how much so depends on the support.
Incidentally, the province player stalls harder than the duchy player even without the HT, and the HT only mega-amplifies this effect, going for $5 rather than $8

Blooki:
Searched for my name and found this post and figured I'd chime in.

Firstly, very well played WW. I've never played against a HT+Duke strategy before and it caught me totally off guard. I underestimated you when you opened HT, went on auto-pilot and didn't see your strategy coming before it was too late. It's certainly a pretty innovative two card combo. I especially like how there are Copper-buying decisions to be made.

Secondly, just to be the final arbiter and dispel speculation, the explanation for my decision to switch gear revolves primarily around the fact that I assumed I had already lost. Perhaps this was a bad assumption to make, but as many had already pointed out, I felt it was clear that I couldn't buy up 8 Provinces before WW reached the critical mass of Duchies + Dukes to seal the game. In general, I have a tendency to quit early and quit often to get to the next game.

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