Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[TrojH]

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120312-191203-915ad30b.html

The setup: Caravan, Chapel, Great Hall, Minion, Outpost, Peddler, Saboteur, Salvager, Scrying Pool, Vault.

We both had a 4-3 start. Normally Chapel is an automatic buy for me, but I made an exception this time. I looked at those precious Minions, and I figured I didn't want to waste any time in getting them. Plus, I figured I didn't need the Chapel's trashing power so much, since I could just bypass the junk in my deck with the Minions. So I opened Salvager/Silver. My opponent started with the usual Chapel/Silver.

Our strategies were very similar thereafter: heavy on the Minions, light on the Peddlers. We stayed close throughout, but I came out on top.

But now I'm wondering if I really made the right move. It worked out, of course, but was I just lucky? My opponent did seem to have some bad luck with his draws early on. And I was playing against a very strong opponent; if he started with Chapel, then that was probably the right move to make.

What you do think? Was I right to ignore Chapel, or not?

[wildfire393]

Honestly, I feel like Salvager is the correct choice here. It's the only source of +buy on the board, which enables you to pick up more Peddlers while trimming your junk, and can feasibly cash in Peddlers later for a huge spike in coin potentially leading to double Province or Prov + Duchy turns that your opponent just can't compete with.

On a board without Peddler, I'd probably say Chapel > Salvager, but the addition of Peddlers to an otherwise straightforward Minion + Chapel board really changes things.

[Ozle]

Im never sure, I just love chapel too much.

But the fact he drew his chapel in the turn where he also got a silver, meaning he couldnt use it. and then set up the following hand to have CCEEE is a bit of a bummer and hurt him early.
But even if he didnt buy a chapel here he would still have had this collision, so not really chapels fault.

I do like the salvager for +buy though

[Kahryl]

A board with Minions AND Caravan AND Peddler gets too strong too fast to fumble the first 6 turns trashing stuff and buying silvers. Especially with the +buy afforded by Salvager.

[Robz888]

As everyone noted, this is certainly a setup where Salvager makes more sense than Chapel.

Interestingly, I would think this to be a rare scenario where Outpost could do a lot of good, though I see the only gained Outpost is in the losing deck...

[RisingJaguar]

As everyone noted, this is certainly a setup where Salvager makes more sense than Chapel.

Interestingly, I would think this to be a rare scenario where Outpost could do a lot of good, though I see the only gained Outpost is in the losing deck...

Outpost is quite complementary with minions a good chunk of the time.  The times outpost isn't complementary is when minions aren't good overall (a lot of curses and such).  Chapel guy makes a nice comeback solely on outpost. 

I wouldn't go as for to say salvager is a better opening than chapel, both can probably do well.  But the lack of salvager overall is painful.  So if you could choose one, easily salvager, but chapel can get salvager as well.  But the overall sentiment that chapel is skippable is here.  I'm just not sure I would yet. 

[O]

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120312-191203-915ad30b.html My opponent did seem to have some bad luck with his draws early on. And I was playing against a very strong opponent; if he started with Chapel, then that was probably the right move to make.

What you do think? Was I right to ignore Chapel, or not?

Firstly, I'm flattered to hear that you think of me as a "very strong opponent".

Secondly, Robz888 brings up my main defense: If outpost wasn't on the board, Salvager would 100% be the right choice.
Since outpost was on the board, though, I would argue that Chapel is superior under similar luck conditions. Salvager's trashing helps get the minions going a bit more quickly, but leaves a much thicker deck than chapel. Outpost in a Minion-Chapel game is much more likely to hit a double province turn than outpost-salvager, simply because you need a high density of minions to ensure that you get anything out of the Outpost turn.

Additionally, I think that Outpost makes up for Salvagers +Buy-> peddler effects: Early on, when you can't buy a province/minion from an outpost, its likely if you played enough minions peddler will be at 0$ or 2$

My ranking of minion decks for this supply would be:

Chapel/Outpost>Salvager/Outpost>Salvager>Chapel, with there being only a very slightly advantage to chapel/outpost over salvager/outpost.

Regardless, you played your strategy perfectly and I'm pretty sure my T-11 outpost was too late, so you deserved the win even with the shuffles.

Also, a mistake you avoided that someone in an earlier post made: Caravan is really only a 4$ consolation prize here if you aren't playing outpost. Peddler is superior to Caravan whenever peddler is 4$-


Edit: Also, Risingjaguar is correct in that it's nice for the chapel guy to pick up a salvager at some point. I should have done this either on T8 or T12

[Robz888]

Yeah, I guess I'm not totally convinced that Salvager is the right move anymore. It's sort of a tough call. With Chapel you could certainly set up a great Outpost engine with Minions and Caravans (I mean, think how good Caravans and Minions are for that Outpost). The problem is I really think you're going to want a Salvager here eventually anyway, to take advantage of this great engine, and that's a lot of cards to get, and by then a simpler Minion strategy probably prevails already. So there's a lot of great potential but it almost takes too long.

What about opening Salvager/Chapel? I suppose you would want to draw Chap/E/E/CC and then Salv/E/C/C/C... but the alternatives don't seem too awful. The collision would be painful, but probably not the end of the world.

[TrojH]

Firstly, I'm flattered to hear that you think of me as a "very strong opponent".

I think your rating speaks for itself. 

[popsofctown]

Why not both Salvager and Chapel?  Silver collides with Chapel about as painfully as Salvager does.  Salvager trashes chapel later for value.