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Author Topic: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)  (Read 28915 times)

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GendoIkari

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2019, 09:00:34 am »
0

So is Captain more or less simply Band of Misfits that works both now and next turn, for a cost of instead of ? That sounds way way better than BoM.

on the surface, yes!

although there is different wording to watch out for between Band of Misfits / Overlord / Captain (which appear to be mostly stronger for the Captain... for example Overlord pretending to be sir martin will result in a trashed overlord if it hits another knight... but captain I believe will stay in your deck)

I think it is more comparable to Necromancer on supply.

Necromancer was already BoM for the trash pile though...
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markusin

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2019, 09:09:42 am »
+1

So is Captain more or less simply Band of Misfits that works both now and next turn, for a cost of instead of ? That sounds way way better than BoM.

on the surface, yes!

although there is different wording to watch out for between Band of Misfits / Overlord / Captain (which appear to be mostly stronger for the Captain... for example Overlord pretending to be sir martin will result in a trashed overlord if it hits another knight... but captain I believe will stay in your deck)

Ah, but only BoM has the ability to gain you Treasure Map Gold. That is one second-rate captain.
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segura

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2019, 09:51:11 am »
+1

Captain: I am not sure what the "leaving it there" phrase means. At first I thought it means Cleanup skips the played cards.
It implies that, unlike the wicked BoM, the noble Captain is immortal. BoM as Encampment, Death Cart, etc. would potentially leave your play area while Captain does not.

Wrong...

"Leaving it there" means that when you play the card from the supply costing or less, you leave that card in the supply; it never moves to your in-play area. So Village is in the supply.. you play Village, but you don't move it. Captain is in-play like normal, and gets cleaned up like normal.

The same wording is used on Necromancer.
That's what I said. BoM would potentially get trashed or returned to the Supply wheras the card that Captain copies as well as Captain itself does not. He stands there, constant as the northern star

That's a significant buff over BoM. Another significant buff in the presence of cost reducers is that Captain says $4 instead of cheaper. So it can potentially play $5s.
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GendoIkari

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2019, 09:59:46 am »
+2

Captain: I am not sure what the "leaving it there" phrase means. At first I thought it means Cleanup skips the played cards.
It implies that, unlike the wicked BoM, the noble Captain is immortal. BoM as Encampment, Death Cart, etc. would potentially leave your play area while Captain does not.

Wrong...

"Leaving it there" means that when you play the card from the supply costing or less, you leave that card in the supply; it never moves to your in-play area. So Village is in the supply.. you play Village, but you don't move it. Captain is in-play like normal, and gets cleaned up like normal.

The same wording is used on Necromancer.
That's what I said. BoM would potentially get trashed or returned to the Supply wheras the card that Captain copies as well as Captain itself does not. He stands there, constant as the northern star

That's a significant buff over BoM. Another significant buff in the presence of cost reducers is that Captain says $4 instead of cheaper. So it can potentially play $5s.

From the way it was worded, it really sounds like you were saying that the Captain is the thing that stays where it is; not the card. I mean, the Captain will also not get trashed when you play Feast and "trash this", but that part of it has nothing to do with the "leaving it there" text that was being asked about; that's simply because it plays another card rather than playing itself as another card.
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segura

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2019, 10:05:19 am »
0

Captain: I am not sure what the "leaving it there" phrase means. At first I thought it means Cleanup skips the played cards.
It implies that, unlike the wicked BoM, the noble Captain is immortal. BoM as Encampment, Death Cart, etc. would potentially leave your play area while Captain does not.

Wrong...

"Leaving it there" means that when you play the card from the supply costing or less, you leave that card in the supply; it never moves to your in-play area. So Village is in the supply.. you play Village, but you don't move it. Captain is in-play like normal, and gets cleaned up like normal.

The same wording is used on Necromancer.
That's what I said. BoM would potentially get trashed or returned to the Supply wheras the card that Captain copies as well as Captain itself does not. He stands there, constant as the northern star

That's a significant buff over BoM. Another significant buff in the presence of cost reducers is that Captain says $4 instead of cheaper. So it can potentially play $5s.

From the way it was worded, it really sounds like you were saying that the Captain is the thing that stays where it is; not the card. I mean, the Captain will also not get trashed when you play Feast and "trash this", but that part of it has nothing to do with the "leaving it there" text that was being asked about; that's simply because it plays another card rather than playing itself as another card.
I wasn't as precise as you but my claim was correct, i.e. Captain stays where he is. That the card he copies also stays where it is is less relevant, except for piling and covering up (for example if Encampment would get set aside, you could pull off tricks like getting at Plunders) issues.
What you mainly care about is that you kill off your BoM if you play it as Death Cart whereas your Captain survives if you play it as Death Cart. Whether the Death Cart in the Supply that you copied gets trashed or not is of secondary relevance.
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GendoIkari

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2019, 10:12:12 am »
+1

Captain: I am not sure what the "leaving it there" phrase means. At first I thought it means Cleanup skips the played cards.
It implies that, unlike the wicked BoM, the noble Captain is immortal. BoM as Encampment, Death Cart, etc. would potentially leave your play area while Captain does not.

Wrong...

"Leaving it there" means that when you play the card from the supply costing or less, you leave that card in the supply; it never moves to your in-play area. So Village is in the supply.. you play Village, but you don't move it. Captain is in-play like normal, and gets cleaned up like normal.

The same wording is used on Necromancer.
That's what I said. BoM would potentially get trashed or returned to the Supply wheras the card that Captain copies as well as Captain itself does not. He stands there, constant as the northern star

That's a significant buff over BoM. Another significant buff in the presence of cost reducers is that Captain says $4 instead of cheaper. So it can potentially play $5s.

From the way it was worded, it really sounds like you were saying that the Captain is the thing that stays where it is; not the card. I mean, the Captain will also not get trashed when you play Feast and "trash this", but that part of it has nothing to do with the "leaving it there" text that was being asked about; that's simply because it plays another card rather than playing itself as another card.
I wasn't as precise as you but my claim was correct, i.e. Captain stays where he is. That the card he copies also stays where it is is less relevant, except for piling and covering up (for example if Encampment would get set aside, you could pull off tricks like getting at Plunders) issues.
What you mainly care about is that you kill off your BoM if you play it as Death Cart whereas your Captain survives if you play it as Death Cart. Whether the Death Cart in the Supply that you copied gets trashed or not is of secondary relevance.

The question was "what does 'leaving it there' mean?" though. While it is true that Captain doesn't get trashed when you use it to play a one-shot, that has nothing to do with the question being asked... "Leaving it there" doesn't stop the Captain from being trashed when you use it to play a one-shot.

Your answer would have been fine if he had instead asked about the differences between how BoM works vs how Captain works.
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segura

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2019, 10:18:35 am »
0

"Leaving it there" doesn't stop the Captain from being trashed when you use it to play a one-shot.
Nope. If you play Captain as Embargo neither the Embargo nor the Captain will get trashed.
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GendoIkari

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2019, 10:20:58 am »
+3

If you play Captain as Embargo neither the Embargo nor the Captain will get trashed.

I know that. But the fact that Captain isn't trashed has nothing to do at all with "leaving it there". The "it" in "leaving it there" is specifically the Embargo, not the Captain. Someone asked a question about what "leaving it there" means, and you answered by stating a fact about how Captain works which has nothing to do with "leaving it there".

If Captain didn't say "Leaving it there", then it would still be true that Captain isn't trashed when you use it to play Embargo.
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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2019, 10:34:45 am »
0

If you play Captain as Embargo neither the Embargo nor the Captain will get trashed.

I know that.
Why do you claim the opposite then?

Captain never dies. His mates don't either but for all practical matters that is far less relevant. Whether that Embargo pile empties or not could sometimes matter but that BoM-Embargo are dead whethereas Captain-Embargo is alive matters a lot.

Captain is most similar to BoM so of course it makes sense to always compare it to BoM just like you automatically compare Mountain Village with Village.
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GendoIkari

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2019, 10:38:14 am »
+2

If you play Captain as Embargo neither the Embargo nor the Captain will get trashed.

I know that.
Why do you claim the opposite then?


I never said anything claiming the opposite...

Quote

Captain never dies. His mates don't either but for all practical matters that is far less relevant. Whether that Embargo pile empties or not could sometimes matter but that BoM-Embargo are dead whethereas Captain-Embargo is alive matters a lot.


It's very relevant when answering the question "what does 'leaving it there' mean?" Also, without the "leaving it there" wording, it wouldn't just be different in terms of emptying piles... if you used Captain to play cards that don't trash themselves, then you would be getting extra cards from it because they would move to your play area and then be cleaned up to your discard pile like any other card you played. The fact that the card you play doesn't move from the supply is very important.

Quote
Captain is most similar to BoM so of course it makes sense to always compare it to BoM just like you automatically compare Mountain Village with Village.

Were you intending to simply make comments about Captain in general, or were you intending to answer the question asked in the post you quoted originally? Someone asked a specific question about the wording on a card. You quoted that question in your post, so it was reasonable to assume that you were intending to answer that question.

It's like someone asked "what does '+3 cards' mean on Smithy?" And you answer by saying "Smithy is a card from the base set. It's a terminal, so you need Villages if you want to play other actions after playing Smithy". Everything you said was true, but it has nothing to do with answering the question being asked.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 10:41:20 am by GendoIkari »
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segura

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2019, 10:48:06 am »
0

If you play Captain as Embargo neither the Embargo nor the Captain will get trashed.

I know that.
Why do you claim the opposite then?


I never said anything claiming the opposite...
"Leaving it there" doesn't stop the Captain from being trashed when you use it to play a one-shot.

That is simply confusing. You are right that "leaving it there" refers to the mate and not the Captain but folks who are confused about how Captain works precisely could easily misread this and assume that Captain can sometimes gets trashed when you use it to play a one-shot.
You basically negate an impossibility. It is like saying that "eating cabbage doesn't stop the apple from flying towards the sky". Not wrong but pretty confusing to those aliens from the mirror universe who don't know how gravity works over here.


Quote
Were you intending to simply make comments about Captain in general, or were you intending to answer the question asked in the post you quoted originally? Someone asked a specific question about the wording on a card. You quoted that question in your post, so it was reasonable to assume that you were intending to answer that question.
You focus on mechanical details, I focus on practical implications and comparisons with existing cards. In my opinion both perspectives are useful but you seemingly think otherwise.
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chipperMDW

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #36 on: August 02, 2019, 10:55:54 am »
+2

I wasn't as precise as you but my claim was correct, i.e. Captain stays where he is. That the card he copies also stays where it is is less relevant, except for piling and covering up (for example if Encampment would get set aside, you could pull off tricks like getting at Plunders) issues.
What you mainly care about is that you kill off your BoM if you play it as Death Cart whereas your Captain survives if you play it as Death Cart. Whether the Death Cart in the Supply that you copied gets trashed or not is of secondary relevance.

You are incorrect. The "leaving it there" phrase does not apply to Captain; it applies to the card Captain plays. It says that the card Captain plays does not get moved into play.

It is true that Captain stays where he is, but that's simply because that's what cards do. If nothing says to trash it or return it to a supply pile, then it stays in play. When you use Captain to play Death Cart, nothing says to trash Captain, so nothing happens to Captain.

You are possibly missing that you do not play Captain as the other card (the way you do with BoM). Captain says "Play a non-Duration Action card from the Supply..." It does not say "Play Captain as " the card. Captain does not become the card.

You focus on mechanical details, I focus on practical implications and comparisons with existing cards. In my opinion both perspectives are useful but you seemingly think otherwise.

If you want to compare to existing cards, you should be comparing with Necromancer, not BoM.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 10:58:29 am by chipperMDW »
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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #37 on: August 02, 2019, 11:02:16 am »
0

if you use Captain on an Island, is it instantly gaining the Island from the Supply? or does "leave it there" supercede that and you just dump a card from your hand on your island mat?
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GendoIkari

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2019, 11:06:05 am »
+2

if you use Captain on an Island, is it instantly gaining the Island from the Supply? or does "leave it there" supercede that and you just dump a card from your hand on your island mat?

Island works like any other one-shot.... "leave it there" prevents the card from moving, so the Island will not move to the Island mat, just like how Embargo will not move to the trash. You will still put a card from your hand onto your Island mat.

Specifically, the Lose Track rule causes this. "Leaving it there" makes it stay in the supply when it is played instead of moving to your play area like normal. And then when it gets to "Put this on to your Island mat", that instruction fails because that instruction expects Island to be in-play, but it isn't.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 11:07:31 am by GendoIkari »
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chipperMDW

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2019, 11:07:11 am »
+2

I never said anything claiming the opposite...
"Leaving it there" doesn't stop the Captain from being trashed when you use it to play a one-shot.

You misunderstood this. You read it as "The instruction is not sufficient to prevent Captain from being trashed..." It was intended as "The instruction is not necessary to prevent Captain from being trashed..."
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GendoIkari

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2019, 11:09:48 am »
+1

I never said anything claiming the opposite...
"Leaving it there" doesn't stop the Captain from being trashed when you use it to play a one-shot.

You misunderstood this. You read it as "The instruction is not sufficient to prevent Captain from being trashed..." It was intended as "The instruction is not necessary to prevent Captain from being trashed..."

Right. This whole conversation seems to have been grounded on segura thinking that ipofanes was confused about how Captain would interact with one-shots; especially as compared to how BoM interacts with one-shots. But that's simply not what ipofanes was asking, and there was no implication that ipofanes was confused about that. "Leaving it there" has important implications beyond one-shots. It prevents you from getting to keep the card that you play.
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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2019, 11:46:36 am »
+4

The official(?) FAQ on the wiki is also confused about this:

Quote
The "leaving it there" clause takes priority over effects of the card being played that move it. Thus Reserve cards are not moved to your mat (and hence not gained). Similarly, Acting Troupe and Death Cart are not trashed.

This is wrong. "Leaving it there" means that the played card doesn't move to your play area when played, which has implications for all cards. It does not refer to "effects of the card being played that move it". Without the clause, you would actually "gain" all cards you played, not just Reserve cards.

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2019, 11:49:30 am »
0

This is wrong. "Leaving it there" means that the played card doesn't move to your play area when played, which has implications for all cards. It does not refer to "effects of the card being played that move it". Without the clause, you would actually "gain" all cards you played, not just Reserve cards.

Do you gain them?  I'd imagine it would work like Masquerade.  Or is that why the "quotes"?
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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2019, 11:55:54 am »
+3

The official(?) FAQ on the wiki is also confused about this:

Quote
The "leaving it there" clause takes priority over effects of the card being played that move it. Thus Reserve cards are not moved to your mat (and hence not gained). Similarly, Acting Troupe and Death Cart are not trashed.

This is wrong. "Leaving it there" means that the played card doesn't move to your play area when played, which has implications for all cards. It does not refer to "effects of the card being played that move it". Without the clause, you would actually "gain" all cards you played, not just Reserve cards.
I haven't clicked on the FAQ yet, which isn't official, but you have that right. "Leaving it there" means you play the card without moving it into play, which you would otherwise do; it's the same as on Necromancer. If it didn't say that, you would move the card into play, so it would be yours although you wouldn't have triggered when-gain abilities. Odds are I wouldn't use such a wording, I'd have you gain the card and then play it.

You don't e.g. trash Captain when you play Embargo with it because Captain doesn't say to trash it anywhere; Embargo trashed Embargo, not Captain. There's just nothing telling you to trash Captain. If it feels like there is, it's because Band of Misfits, the hyper-confusing card that Captain is reminiscent of, turns into Embargo and so trashes itself. For the moment! Again when we next print Dark Ages I may change that.
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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2019, 11:57:07 am »
+4

So you can play Captain, then play the last workshop in the pile, and that workshop can gain itself since it is still there, right?
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GendoIkari

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2019, 11:59:23 am »
+1

This is wrong. "Leaving it there" means that the played card doesn't move to your play area when played, which has implications for all cards. It does not refer to "effects of the card being played that move it". Without the clause, you would actually "gain" all cards you played, not just Reserve cards.

Do you gain them?  I'd imagine it would work like Masquerade.  Or is that why the "quotes"?

That's why the quotes. You would get the cards into your play area and then your discard pile, but you wouldn't ever actually gain them.
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GendoIkari

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2019, 12:00:54 pm »
+2

So you can play Captain, then play the last workshop in the pile, and that workshop can gain itself since it is still there, right?

Yup!
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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2019, 12:04:46 pm »
0

Do you gain them?  I'd imagine it would work like Masquerade.  Or is that why the "quotes"?

Yes, that's why I used quotes. It would be like Masquerade. The phrase "and hence not gained" should also be fixed to something like "and hence would not be yours".

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2019, 12:18:43 pm »
+1

Maybe a weird question, but are these cards one or two promos? I mean, are they released in one pack or are they separate? I guess this could be different when they are given as free promos and when they are later sold on BGG...

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Re: New Promos: Church, Captain (Gen Con 2019)
« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2019, 01:44:09 pm »
+1

Donald (or testers), you mention in the secret history that you didn't want to do the "2$ less than this" thing on Captain, which seems very reasonable. Was "less than Duchy" taken in consideration?

Incidentally,  you hinted at an errata fixing the BoM/Ferry/Captain thing (in addition to using "leaving it there" technology on BoM I assume). Do you already have a fix in mind? I'm having trouble coming up with a simple one, apart from simply blocking BoM-Durations.
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