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[MiX]

When did he claim "not promoter"?

Okay, turns out I misremembered. It was ari who followed you in claiming "not promoter". For some reason I thought it was ADK. I should have checked.

Vote: Glooble because I'm currently reading M115, Galz was scum and I don't recall the same behavior here. Also, that game has a lot of players here, would reccomend for people that don't know everyone's meta (I know ari'll need it).

Treat the above vote as FoS + Unvote, I need to reread Glooble too...so much effort!

[jotheonah]

Giving newbies day 1 passes is kind, but not optimal. Especially when said newbies are scummy.

What did ari do that's scummy? Say he's scum? Seems weak, given that you have a great example of a scum!ari. Also, he somewhat dug his own grave D2 last time, so I suggest we let him slide untill then, at least.

Who else would you vote?

vote:MiX

[jotheonah]

vote: MiX if the space matters

[mcmcsalot]

vote: space

That is one of the longest non posts I have ever seen.

How would you have answered MiX's question, if your actual thoughts were in line with the answer I posted?

That’s a very difficult thought exercise. Essentially you said lots had been already discussed about the promoter claim (which is irrelevant and serves to excuse your lack of thoughts on it), you said you don’t like the idea of plans where townies should do something purely because it’s “towny”, which is another word for pro town. I disagree with your opinion there and think you basically said you don’t like plans because they are difficult to pull off and you don’t like directing players. It’s a fine opinion to have but you took a really long way to say it.

I think it’s a scummy post because you could have said. “I don’t have many thoughts about the promoter claim, I don’t want to discuss it much more, and I don’t like town directing plans as a whole.”  But that would have sounded really scummy so you added a lot of fluff and overexplaination of your thoughts.

[MiX]

vote: MiX if the space matters

Case? I might get lynched today, time to take proactive measure.

Mcmc is incredibly weird, not sure what to think...

[faust]

Random thought: faust, do you think ADK coming up with the plan alligns with your traitor case?

I mean, I think the most likely thing is that he thought it was a good idea independently, and then because he knows it is of no consequence to the game (there is no town Promoter) he tried to generate some activity from it.

[SpaceAnemone]

That’s a very difficult thought exercise. Essentially you said lots had been already discussed about the promoter claim (which is irrelevant and serves to excuse your lack of thoughts on it)

Mosty, I was excusing my lack of commenting on it because I didn't have any thoughts on it until after the discussion took place.

you said you don’t like the idea of plans where townies should do something purely because it’s “towny”, which is another word for pro town. I disagree with your opinion there and think you basically said you don’t like plans because they are difficult to pull off and you don’t like directing players. It’s a fine opinion to have but you took a really long way to say it.

You are confusing "don't like" and "have completely lost faith in". I love the idea of coming up with foolproof plans around economic use of information, leveraging information flow in games like this and trying to construct a win for town. I do not think that this promoter thing offers anything like that, though.

I think it’s a scummy post because you could have said. “I don’t have many thoughts about the promoter claim, I don’t want to discuss it much more, and I don’t like town directing plans as a whole.”  But that would have sounded really scummy so you added a lot of fluff and overexplaination of your thoughts.

That would also have been a lie, because I really like well-constructed plans to get town ahead by making sure everyone reveals exactly the right information in exactly the right order. I'm super-frustrated when people refuse to play along with something that has a clear logical benefit. However, nobody is offering that level of proof for promoter-claiming, and I didn't notice anything great either, so I think it's better to focus on other ways of catching scum.

[SpaceAnemone]

Note that my post that mcmc thinks is so scummy did another useful pro-town thing: it boosted the signal on faust's comment about the possibility of a quick-lynch before the Gladiator deadline kicks in, and obtained clear mod confirmation that it's a viable plan, which avoids uncertainty during the critical window at the start of D2.

I did also say that I don't think we should do any pre-planning around that till D2, but the idea itself was already accessible to scum, so it's not like I hurt our chances there. Furthermore, if it's being discussed at this level, a scum Gladiator has less excuse to say "oops, it didn't occur to me that we should hold out till deadline" if they come into the thread naming a second player. Same goes for avoiding a derp!town move.

Basically, I think it's pro-town to point out to whomever the gladiator is that it's a good idea to hold off and let town have some rapid start-of-D2 discussion before naming anyone else to the 1-v-1.

[MiX]

Note that my post that mcmc thinks is so scummy did another useful pro-town thing: it boosted the signal on faust's comment about the possibility of a quick-lynch before the Gladiator deadline kicks in, and obtained clear mod confirmation that it's a viable plan, which avoids uncertainty during the critical window at the start of D2.

I did also say that I don't think we should do any pre-planning around that till D2, but the idea itself was already accessible to scum, so it's not like I hurt our chances there. Furthermore, if it's being discussed at this level, a scum Gladiator has less excuse to say "oops, it didn't occur to me that we should hold out till deadline" if they come into the thread naming a second player. Same goes for avoiding a derp!town move.

Basically, I think it's pro-town to point out to whomever the gladiator is that it's a good idea to hold off and let town have some rapid start-of-D2 discussion before naming anyone else to the 1-v-1.

Did you really need to defend your (in your words) "pro-town post" again? Saying that you accomplished a pro-town thing is not, by itself, a pro-town thing. Did you think your previous explanation was insuficient, or are you scumreading mcmc for not seeing the obvious townieness of your long post? Otherwise it feels you're doing what mcmc said is scummy...for essencially no reason. Do you want to be scumread? Overall I'm confused by the necessity of this post.

[jotheonah]

When did he claim "not promoter"?

Okay, turns out I misremembered. It was ari who followed you in claiming "not promoter". For some reason I thought it was ADK. I should have checked.

Vote: Glooble because I'm currently reading M115, Galz was scum and I don't recall the same behavior here. Also, that game has a lot of players here, would reccomend for people that don't know everyone's meta (I know ari'll need it).

Treat the above vote as FoS + Unvote, I need to reread Glooble too...so much effort!

This post reads flailing scum to me. Could be flailing town, but definitely could be flailing scum. Plus, I was staying off the MiX wagon because it felt scummy how quickly it was building. But now it feels scummy how much it's stalled out.

[MiX]

When did he claim "not promoter"?

Okay, turns out I misremembered. It was ari who followed you in claiming "not promoter". For some reason I thought it was ADK. I should have checked.

Vote: Glooble because I'm currently reading M115, Galz was scum and I don't recall the same behavior here. Also, that game has a lot of players here, would reccomend for people that don't know everyone's meta (I know ari'll need it).

Treat the above vote as FoS + Unvote, I need to reread Glooble too...so much effort!

This post reads flailing scum to me. Could be flailing town, but definitely could be flailing scum. Plus, I was staying off the MiX wagon because it felt scummy how quickly it was building. But now it feels scummy how much it's stalled out.

You, my friend, have the wrong idea of scum!MiX. Alas, that'll take a while to appear. Just read D2 of RMM52 where I was on the rocks, did I flail? I believe not (maybe I did...), but you're the judge of that.

[gkrieg13]

Currently feeling like procrastinating, so I'm going to read back through some stuff.

[gkrieg13]

I have a lot of predictions but no reads...

Unvote. I'll have to try harder, haven't put much effort into this yet.

This is a little bit scummy, but not super scummy.

[gkrieg13]

First off: Super sorry I didn't get around to this yesterday night like I said I would. My computer kept restarting in the middle of me constructing my posts, and I got tired, so I went to bed. I'm here now. But I'm kinda miffed at the lack of suspicion on me. If I were scum I imagine I could just keep shutting up, occasionally doing short posts to keep the "lynch all lurkers" crowd at bay. Lucky for you guys I'm not scum. Time for me to join the fray!
My thoughts on promoter versus Vig: Vig is an extra kill. Promoter is limiting the kill we are already entitled to. Vig>Promoter. I'm torn on whether the promoter should claim though. I feel like it's negative utility, so scum wouldn't want to kill, so scum will be able to kill our other power roles, but if the promoter plays smart they can influence the game for the better (assuming we got the town promoter). I think it's safer to just not claim. That way maf can accidentally kill promoter instead of another pr.
Also, Jothenoah and Faust: I'm really REALLY not a fan of unexplained votes. Explanation provides more information to the town, which is always good. Barring being a PR or something. I'd recommend one of them for the day 2 lynch if promoter doesn't throw a wrench in that and they don't claim some PR.
My thoughts on voting: Why are we voting MiX? Sure, he's not the towniest town to ever town, but I don't see to much scumminess. Anyone wanna explain?
In conclusion to this opening paragraph, everybody ask me hard questions! I want to answer them and prove I'm town!

As far as players go I wish I knew arishape better because I feel like if I did I would know their alignment already. They seem to be playing relatively straightforward and not a lot of pre-thought to their posts.

I have one game to my name.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19407.0
In this game, I was scum. Feel free to read it over. Anyways, you are absolutely correct in my straightforwardness. I try not to mask, deceive, or be unclear in any way, shape, or form, so as to leave no room for any misinterpretation, which is a scum's friend.

To be frank, you did the same things in the game you quoted.

Correct. And I was obviously scum. Ergo, my strategy revealed the scum. Therefore, it is pro town. I'll probably have to come up with a better strategy for when I'm scum... But hey, i don't need to worry about that this game!

vote: MiX

Is voting without explaining just what all the cool kids are doing now?

I think MiX is scum pushing for traitor to claim. Mild suspicion

...Why do you think this?

You may want to put more white space in your posts like these, this is really hard to read.

[gkrieg13]

First off: Super sorry I didn't get around to this yesterday night like I said I would. My computer kept restarting in the middle of me constructing my posts, and I got tired, so I went to bed. I'm here now. But I'm kinda miffed at the lack of suspicion on me. If I were scum I imagine I could just keep shutting up, occasionally doing short posts to keep the "lynch all lurkers" crowd at bay. Lucky for you guys I'm not scum. Time for me to join the fray!

is the scummiest thing I've ever read. And then there's this:

My thoughts on voting: Why are we voting MiX? Sure, he's not the towniest town to ever town, but I don't see to much scumminess. Anyone wanna explain?

Followed immediately by Mix jumping to ari's defense for my one vote? Guys, get better at being partners.

I pretty much agree with this. Town points to Joth.

[gkrieg13]

Hey, we are REALLY good at being partners, okay? If it were us you would see a lot more direct intetaction (I actually planned a little bit if I got scum with ari only since we would both be newbies).

"Jokes" aside: what makes that first part scummy? For me it says "Hello my name is arishipshape and I love to make long hard to read posts about everything" which doesn't seem alignment indicative.

PPE 1: I truly am trying to make Traitor claim.

...Hard to read? I'm insulted. I'll try to cut down on the excess verbiage, if that's what everyone thinks though.
Allow me to rephrase. Anyone on the MiX wagon, care to explain why MiX trying to make traitor claim makes MiX scum?

Lol, hadn't read this yet...

[gkrieg13]

Faust, you still haven't explained your vote.

I'm so glad you pointed that out, or else I would never have noticed.

For reals though, I think it is soon time to explain, but I don't have the time just now.

Has faust been doing this kind of thing a lot lately?  I don't remember seeing this coyness from him before.

[gkrieg13]

If everyone says they're not the promoter, we can conclude the promoter is scum.

Or that the promoter decided they would rather not come forward.

Sorry I was going on the assumption that a town player wouldn't outright lie.

There are times when it is good to lie as town.

[gkrieg13]

My case against Faust:

Reason number one. Unexplained vote.

Vote: ADK

Even after repeated pressure from me and ADK, Faust has refused to provide justification for this vote. I've repeatedly stated why this is super anti town, I don't want to sound like a broken record. If anyone needs to know why this is scummy, ask. Or re-read me.

Reason number two. General unhelpful-ness. Here are some of the choicest Faust quotes of this game.

Unrelated note: Well done gkrieg.

If town guesses right and lynches scum, it even increases our chance of lynching scum to 100%.

I sure hope we're in one of the scenarios that have only 1 scum!

I think he's a bit towny.

The above quote is unhelpful for providing no reasons, although making a town read is usually helpful.

Can you guys just move on already?

Faust seems to be gravitating towards one liners that don't actually say anything, and not contributing nearly enough. However, he has done the occasional helpful post. I just don't believe these outdo his lack of helpfulness. Useful quotes include:

Here"s a notable setup point worth discussing: We can still lynch whoever we want on D2 if we do it before the 72 hour deadline for the Gladiator expires.

Unrelated note: Well done gkrieg.

This reminds me: What's gkrieg's meta? With his, feel free to explain chairs joth and Galzria's metas as well, I just realized I haven't played with them yet.

Let's just say if gkrieg were the Traitor, we'd already know...

Seriously, gkrieg tends to have pretty good reads as town but for some reason people read him scummy and he gets mislynched frequently. As scum he's much easier to detect IRL. chairs is like always kind of excited when he starts playing, and then something terrible happens in his life and he can't participate. He's also very much a gut feeling kind of player. joth I feel I haven't really played with enough yet. Galzria's current meta is unfortunately that he lurks until he is replaced.

Finally, I also just get a scummy vibe from him. I try to ignore feelings most of the time, but I find in mafia they sometimes serve a purpose. Feel free to argue. Vote:Faust

I mean faust generally is helpful to town, but how is what he is doing now likely to come from scum!faust? Like, you know he is a good player right?

[SpaceAnemone]

Faust, you still haven't explained your vote.

I'm so glad you pointed that out, or else I would never have noticed.

For reals though, I think it is soon time to explain, but I don't have the time just now.

Has faust been doing this kind of thing a lot lately?  I don't remember seeing this coyness from him before.

He came across as a bit crotchety at times (as town) last game I played with him. I usually find his mafia persona more prickly than he is in person, though.

[gkrieg13]

I mean, "definitely town" is strong; faust could be scum, as could anyone. But so far he's reading pretty townie.

This is a little scummy though.

[gkrieg13]

I really don't like Ari's faust case, but I don't think it's malicious/scummy per se, just a bit of an indication that they're a newbie with little feel for people's meta, or the overall meta of f.ds mafia.

@Ari, hi! I don't think we've played before. Apologies for starting out our interaction with a criticism, but coming into a game with a blunt assertion that it's anti-town not to share everything, while obviously being unaware of the long history of this having been discussed in numerous games before, is a bit naive, and really isn't going to win over many of the vets. Faust is a seasoned player who knows what he's doing. He comes across as weirdly cantankerous sometimes, and economical with his words, but that's not alignment indicative. The only reliable tell I found for him being scum is that if you get into a situation where there's complex logical reasoning, he can sometime spin it the wrong way to cover for himself or his teammates as scum, but obviously won't use the same spin as town. It's not a very frequently-applicable tell :-(

In case it helps give you a framework for thinking about the more meta side of the game works here, consider that any given player, especially vets who've been playing such games with one another for years and years, is probably not thinking only of their win or loss in this one particular game. They've got form, there are things they've done before as scum, and things they've discussed previously with people who were their scum buddies in other games, but who might now be town while they're scum again (or vice versa!), and there are patterns of behaviour that tend to repeat. The pace of innovation in any given direction is limited by how people feel any changes in their behaviour might adversely affect their faction in this game, and also other people's perceptions of them in future games. If you're too ridiculously townie as town and can't emulate it when you're scum, your scum game suffers. If you're too unhelpful or abrasive as a player, people will more happily lynch you off even in your townier games. Players like faust are so ancient they've converged on some kind of an optimum presentation. (I (hope I can) get away with saying this, since I'm more ancient than faust is IRL, even though I'm a relative newbie in f.ds mafia terms, having only been playing mafia here for ~3 years).

PPE 6 or 7: not sure that needed an essay, but there you go :-P

Lol, this is the Spaceiest thing that has ever Spaced.  <3

[gkrieg13]

Vote: ari

Perfectly timed bus. Well-done.

Is it bad if I agree with you, but also kind of think you are scum?

[gkrieg13]

Refusing to provide the town with information is the definition of scummy! What does scum have that town doesn't? Information. The towns goal is to make up for their information deficit. In addition, after the context provided by Space I retracted my vote.

How is refusing to be helpful not scummy?

Let me turn that around for you: What does scum gain by being obviously unhelpful? Scum players want to be helpful; their helpfulness is just leading town down the wrong path. Wanton, willful unhelpfulness usually comes from town. Or Awaclus.

Second, let me disabuse you of the notion that town is a big happy family working together to solve a problem. We are a big happy family working together to solve a problem -- with a small happy family embedded in us that is working to stop the problem from being solved. If we adopt a philosophy of "everyone shares everything all the time", that helps scum, not town. Sometimes town players keep things to themselves for some period of town. It's actually the only way we can counteract the information asymmetry. Automatically giving all the information we have to town (and therefore also to scum) just furthers it.

Ok. I refuse to help anyone find scum ever again. I'm town now, right? Total unhelpful-ness, of the finest variety. And here, why don't I throw out a random vote for no reason? Vote: Jothenoah

What information (besides PR's, which is why I wanted to wait for a claim before lynching the people that didn't give reasons) does the town have that scum doesn't?

a.k.a OMGUS

[gkrieg13]

However I do think mix is scum.

Nah, I'm just incredibly lazy and I'm pushing a (well, I guess it is) anti-town plan. Which IS scummy, but...would scum do that? No idea.

A lot of people are being towny right now...I think I might stick to the basics.

Vote: gkrieg, did he dissapear? Sure seemed like it.

I did disappear! But also I just am not available on weekends, and have a lot of stuff coming up this week and a lot of stuff last week (paper deadline).