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[mcmcsalot]

Mcmc's setup talk overestimates Jester fakeclaiming: If two people claim promoter, why would we assume there's scum between them? Two promoter claims do seem like a complete mess...one that could be figured out right now, because there's no reason to assume that it won't happen in future days. Unless you would rather have promoter be NKd to avoid it?

If we have a mafia promoter most likely they won’t claim and then all non mafia power roles will instantly know the entire setup.

Isn't this part good though?

Yes? Why wouldn't it be? But I doubt no one will claim promoter here.

Exactly, my post was meant to lay out all the potential scenarios in a forced promoter claim and unfortunately I think the good scenarios are not super helpful and are far less likely than the bad scenarios.

[mcmcsalot]

vote: MiX

[A Drowned Kernel]

vote: MiX

Is voting without explaining just what all the cool kids are doing now?

[Glooble]

vote: MiX

Is voting without explaining just what all the cool kids are doing now?

It happens a lot here. I don’t get it either. Sometimes it’s like a gambit. I’ve never seen such a gambit succeed, mind you.

[MiX]

Sure, but there's directing in the sense of "everybody has an opinion" and directing in the sense of "we're all going to vote on who you should use your power on, and if you use it on anybody else we'll lynch you on day 3".

Hmm. If the latter happens, I suggest we lynch them D2 instead. Otherwise I believe voting's better, but it will most likely drag the game down. So it'll depend on how early promoter claims, the earlier the better. So, scum, claim now for town points! They're free!

But can we lynch them day 2? I thought the whole promoter/gladiator thing meant we can't lynch anybody we want to day 2...

The gladiator will simply challenge the promoter after seeing that the gladiator is not who town decided promoter would target.

Mcmc's setup talk overestimates Jester fakeclaiming: If two people claim promoter, why would we assume there's scum between them? Two promoter claims do seem like a complete mess...one that could be figured out right now, because there's no reason to assume that it won't happen in future days. Unless you would rather have promoter be NKd to avoid it?

If we have a mafia promoter most likely they won’t claim and then all non mafia power roles will instantly know the entire setup.

Isn't this part good though?

Yes? Why wouldn't it be? But I doubt no one will claim promoter here.

Exactly, my post was meant to lay out all the potential scenarios in a forced promoter claim and unfortunately I think the good scenarios are not super helpful and are far less likely than the bad scenarios.

Do you believe conflict shenanigans are worse than outing promoter if Traitor dies (or vice-versa)? Because as of right now the only problem I see with the claim is if someone else counterclaims: the role is sufficiently anti-town to be exposed and pro-town to be left alive (whichever scum desires). So, why, exactly, do you think claiming is worse?

vote: MiX

Is voting without explaining just what all the cool kids are doing now?

It's pretty funny to do so as town and it's a great way to hide as scum, essencially it's the perfect meta for everyone.

PPE 1: Yeah, that's another way of saying it.

[Joseph2302]

Question for ADK and the pro-claim crew:

If a promoter claims, is our next move to try to direct their power use? I sort of like that since then the fake-claiming scum promoter is locked into using their power in a town-powered way or else giving themselves away.

After mcmc's post I'm not 100% I'm on the pro-claim crew anymore.

That is another benefit to the promoter claiming, though.

Right now I'm simply thinking: if the worst part of a promoter claim is a conflict, why delay it? So, ADK, why are you against claiming?

Directing the promoter will happen naturally after they claim, it's essencially inevitable, there's almost no reason to have an opinion on it, and if there is why say it?

Hey everyone! Good to have another game on here

Summary of thoughts:

1) Promoter Claim - Since we don't know if there is a Promoter, combined with the chance that there is a Mafia Promoter instead of a Town Promoter who could claim and then even "prove it" if we were to force the target options on them... I am not seeing a super upside for a Promoter Claim. Additionally, the Town Promoter is potentially a very strong role if I understand it correctly... but its value only grows as the game goes on. They get to enhance reads, isolate based on claims, etc... and all of that increases the chances of finding good targets. So yeah... I think I am against the Promoter Claim because I think Skum would probably want to get rid of them.

Vote: DatSwan for not reading the setup: there's always a Promoter. Not reading the setup seems like something scum!Swan would loooove to do since he performed that in RMM52, where he was town.

How is there always a promoter? Am I reading the setup wrong? There's 4 quadrants and we get the 4 things in that quadrant, right?
And only 2 of these have a promoter. ......

We have two quadrants, either the top two, the bottom two, the left two, or the right two.

Makes sense. If only i could do maths I could have realised that 1 quadrant is just 10 people.....

[Joseph2302]

vote: MiX

Is voting without explaining just what all the cool kids are doing now?

Vote: ADK

[Joseph2302]

I still think claiming is good though. Because a vig is swung as fuck anyway, and a compulsive one isn't great anyway

[MiX]

Mini reread:

Vote: ADK. Still want to hear more from Swan, however.

[mcmcsalot]

vote: MiX

Is voting without explaining just what all the cool kids are doing now?

I think MiX is scum pushing for traitor to claim. Mild suspicion

[Swowl]

Question for ADK and the pro-claim crew:

If a promoter claims, is our next move to try to direct their power use? I sort of like that since then the fake-claiming scum promoter is locked into using their power in a town-powered way or else giving themselves away.

After mcmc's post I'm not 100% I'm on the pro-claim crew anymore.

That is another benefit to the promoter claiming, though.

Right now I'm simply thinking: if the worst part of a promoter claim is a conflict, why delay it? So, ADK, why are you against claiming?

Directing the promoter will happen naturally after they claim, it's essencially inevitable, there's almost no reason to have an opinion on it, and if there is why say it?

Hey everyone! Good to have another game on here

Summary of thoughts:

1) Promoter Claim - Since we don't know if there is a Promoter, combined with the chance that there is a Mafia Promoter instead of a Town Promoter who could claim and then even "prove it" if we were to force the target options on them... I am not seeing a super upside for a Promoter Claim. Additionally, the Town Promoter is potentially a very strong role if I understand it correctly... but its value only grows as the game goes on. They get to enhance reads, isolate based on claims, etc... and all of that increases the chances of finding good targets. So yeah... I think I am against the Promoter Claim because I think Skum would probably want to get rid of them.

Vote: DatSwan for not reading the setup: there's always a Promoter. Not reading the setup seems like something scum!Swan would loooove to do since he performed that in RMM52, where he was town.

I could be missing something, but I did specify in my post the distinction of Mafia vs Town Promoter. Am i missing something or is it you that needs to read the set up?

[A Drowned Kernel]

vote: MiX

Is voting without explaining just what all the cool kids are doing now?

I think MiX is scum pushing for traitor to claim. Mild suspicion

I don't think a traitor would claim, though; it's too easy for them to get caught.

[Galzria]

vote: MiX

Is voting without explaining just what all the cool kids are doing now?

I think MiX is scum pushing for traitor to claim. Mild suspicion

This is kinda where I’m at. There’s one other person that I’ve felt has knowledge of the setup and is trying to push a certain action, but I’m not ready to vote there.

vote: MiX

[Galzria]

Why are we all saying the Promoter is negative utility? If they guess right and target scum, they increase our chance of lynching scum to 50%. How is that bad?

This is also pretty accurate.

There are some town that honestly, incorrectly, believe that the role is negative utility. If there’s a scum!Promoter, then it’s a fairly valuable tool, and they aren’t going to claim. Being able to force a lynch between {Town*:X} is quite strong. If it’s a town!Promoter, it’s also rather valuable, as they’ll get to ensure their top scum read is one of two players to be lynchable the following day - and if that player happens to be town, they’ll likely be challenging their own top scum read. I’ll take that any day.

If it’s a Scum!Promoter, they aren’t claiming. If it’s a town!promoter, scum (plus some misguided town) want that player dead.

My expectations are that thus far scum has sided with “Should Claims” and “Neutrals” if it’s a town!promoter, and have been wherever they feel like if it’s a scum!promoter, as they have no intention of claiming anyway.

[Uncleeurope]

Vote Count 1.0

Uncleeurope couldn't decide if he should write meaningless flavor on his vote count. He figured he would decide later.

A Drowned Kernel (3): faust, Joseph2302, MiX
MiX (2): mcmcsalot, Galzria
arishipshape (1): Glooble
SpaceAnemone (1): gkrieg13
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
gkrieg13 (1): arishipshape
Glooble (1): jotheonah

Not voting (4): DatSwan, chairs, A Drowned Kernel, EFHW


With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
Day 1 ends Wednesday, 1st of May, at 5:30 ft.

[Swowl]

Why are we all saying the Promoter is negative utility? If they guess right and target scum, they increase our chance of lynching scum to 50%. How is that bad?

I mean I’ll be capt obvious here:
Given the size of the game, if there is a town promoter, on Night 1 they could either:
1) target themselves and another the next day. 1 town, 1 unknown. This assuredly ends in them claiming meaning the other player is x/11 chance of skum.

2) If there is no promoter, we as town lynch someone tomorrow who has... an x/12 chance of being skum... but we get to decide collectively.

All in all i think promoter is neg utility to exist at all because it forces isolation to 2 people the next day instead of people getting to pick who they focus on from the group - so it limits discussion.

I mean talked to death at this point. I don’t think the claim makes any sense, and we will know tomorrow if a promoter exists or not.

[Galzria]

Why are we all saying the Promoter is negative utility? If they guess right and target scum, they increase our chance of lynching scum to 50%. How is that bad?

I mean I’ll be capt obvious here:
Given the size of the game, if there is a town promoter, on Night 1 they could either:
1) target themselves and another the next day. 1 town, 1 unknown. This assuredly ends in them claiming meaning the other player is x/11 chance of skum.

2) If there is no promoter, we as town lynch someone tomorrow who has... an x/12 chance of being skum... but we get to decide collectively.

All in all i think promoter is neg utility to exist at all because it forces isolation to 2 people the next day instead of people getting to pick who they focus on from the group - so it limits discussion.

I mean talked to death at this point. I don’t think the claim makes any sense, and we will know tomorrow if a promoter exists or not.

You already know that one exists. You just don’t know if they are scum or town.

[Swowl]

Why are we all saying the Promoter is negative utility? If they guess right and target scum, they increase our chance of lynching scum to 50%. How is that bad?

I mean I’ll be capt obvious here:
Given the size of the game, if there is a town promoter, on Night 1 they could either:
1) target themselves and another the next day. 1 town, 1 unknown. This assuredly ends in them claiming meaning the other player is x/11 chance of skum.

2) If there is no promoter, we as town lynch someone tomorrow who has... an x/12 chance of being skum... but we get to decide collectively.

All in all i think promoter is neg utility to exist at all because it forces isolation to 2 people the next day instead of people getting to pick who they focus on from the group - so it limits discussion.

I mean talked to death at this point. I don’t think the claim makes any sense, and we will know tomorrow if a promoter exists or not.

You already know that one exists. You just don’t know if they are scum or town.

Right but i don’t think anyone is arguing the negative utility of the skum version.

[Galzria]

Why are we all saying the Promoter is negative utility? If they guess right and target scum, they increase our chance of lynching scum to 50%. How is that bad?

I mean I’ll be capt obvious here:
Given the size of the game, if there is a town promoter, on Night 1 they could either:
1) target themselves and another the next day. 1 town, 1 unknown. This assuredly ends in them claiming meaning the other player is x/11 chance of skum.

2) If there is no promoter, we as town lynch someone tomorrow who has... an x/12 chance of being skum... but we get to decide collectively.

All in all i think promoter is neg utility to exist at all because it forces isolation to 2 people the next day instead of people getting to pick who they focus on from the group - so it limits discussion.

I mean talked to death at this point. I don’t think the claim makes any sense, and we will know tomorrow if a promoter exists or not.

You already know that one exists. You just don’t know if they are scum or town.

Right but i don’t think anyone is arguing the negative utility of the skum version.

What?

I’m not talking utility, positive or negative, for either faction here. You said: “... and we will know tomorrow if a promoter exists or not”. There is no “or not” - a Promoter exists, and their power is compulsive.

[Swowl]

Why are we all saying the Promoter is negative utility? If they guess right and target scum, they increase our chance of lynching scum to 50%. How is that bad?

I mean I’ll be capt obvious here:
Given the size of the game, if there is a town promoter, on Night 1 they could either:
1) target themselves and another the next day. 1 town, 1 unknown. This assuredly ends in them claiming meaning the other player is x/11 chance of skum.

2) If there is no promoter, we as town lynch someone tomorrow who has... an x/12 chance of being skum... but we get to decide collectively.

All in all i think promoter is neg utility to exist at all because it forces isolation to 2 people the next day instead of people getting to pick who they focus on from the group - so it limits discussion.

I mean talked to death at this point. I don’t think the claim makes any sense, and we will know tomorrow if a promoter exists or not.

You already know that one exists. You just don’t know if they are scum or town.

Right but i don’t think anyone is arguing the negative utility of the skum version.

What?

I’m not talking utility, positive or negative, for either faction here. You said: “... and we will know tomorrow if a promoter exists or not”. There is no “or not” - a Promoter exists, and their power is compulsive.

Ah i see your point - we wouldn’t know which is which.... which seems obvious now that i say it out loud. Whatever - i stand by my utility point

[faust]

My expectations are that thus far scum has sided with “Should Claims” and “Neutrals” if it’s a town!promoter, and have been wherever they feel like if it’s a scum!promoter, as they have no intention of claiming anyway.

I don't think that kind of reasoning is fruitful. Scum have taken the side that they believe is the correct play. It does not pay off for them to lie about this stuff. What I will say is that scum probably happily engaged in all this setup talk that brings us nowhere.

[Galzria]

My expectations are that thus far scum has sided with “Should Claims” and “Neutrals” if it’s a town!promoter, and have been wherever they feel like if it’s a scum!promoter, as they have no intention of claiming anyway.

I don't think that kind of reasoning is fruitful. Scum have taken the side that they believe is the correct play. It does not pay off for them to lie about this stuff. What I will say is that scum probably happily engaged in all this setup talk that brings us nowhere.

I disagree.

[Swowl]

My expectations are that thus far scum has sided with “Should Claims” and “Neutrals” if it’s a town!promoter, and have been wherever they feel like if it’s a scum!promoter, as they have no intention of claiming anyway.

I don't think that kind of reasoning is fruitful. Scum have taken the side that they believe is the correct play. It does not pay off for them to lie about this stuff. What I will say is that scum probably happily engaged in all this setup talk that brings us nowhere.

I disagree.

Could be a middle ground - if skum has the promoter they would know there is no town promoter. So, fairly easy day 1 plan could be to start the convo to “waste time”, knowing there will be no claim, and then tomorrow come out with “I’m the town promoter and targeted this person”.

They could even parlay that tomorrow if they got suspected, which would inevitably force a claim. If they already know A-D is in play, they would want to get rid of as many from B-D as they could so that could be a plan.


Side note - that is a super reach theory in detail, but the initial premise is something that should be remembered going forward.

[MiX]

vote: MiX

Is voting without explaining just what all the cool kids are doing now?

I think MiX is scum pushing for traitor to claim. Mild suspicion

That's pretty much the answer I got when analyzing the promoter claim, yeah. I assume whoever's Traitor has thought about this, right?

I still think we should force a claim, especially as it seems scum won't claim: it would be useful to know what setup we're in. It seems to be bad if there's a town Promoter, however...but I'm willing to gamble here given we don't know that. What we should do is force a claim as early as possible so the Promoter has a chance to claim AND so we can conclude no one claimed after a certain time has passed. Unfortunately it seems we're disagreeing, so that won't happen soon.

As for "setup talk that gets us nowhere", if you have another topic you wish to talk about, go ahead. "You" here is collectively, of course.

[faust]

As for "setup talk that gets us nowhere", if you have another topic you wish to talk about, go ahead. "You" here is collectively, of course.

Here's a crazy out there suggestion: We could talk about who we think is scum. For example, what is your opinion on everyone's favorite scumsters ADK and DatSwan?