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[WestCoastDidds]

vote: WCD

Space, why do you think WCD is town?  Because they opened a qt with you?  I guess they shared their power which made you believe they are town?

E, can you help me understand? Is it common that scum to have QT conversations with town folk? Wouldn’t that give scum too I have power? I had to tell both Space and Swan quite a bit about my role to explain why we were chatting, but I hadn’t considered that it could be a scummy power. (Honest questions...I’m really trying to learn.)

[Haddock]

This recent news explains a lot.
It also makes wcd look townier to me.

I'm not sure it does a whole lot to make space look townier.
Some, but not a whole lot. I will wait to see what they have to say regarding the qt contents.

I'd also like to know what they mean by "attempt at getting better wagon analysis". What was the plan there?

The wagon analysis is what we have both said elsewhere. We tried to create an alternate wagon out of nowhere, and then both got on it thinking that whoever else got on it were likely scum. LL did, so we were right.

We were going to try to make it a fairly towny player...Glooble was our idea, but when Space started working that angle you were not having it and she got caught in her own logic. So, I went with MM. At the time, I found him null (as did Space, I think) which was the point. Now I think he is scummy.

Swan was not as invested in Space as I was. I feel like our interaction over the course of the week was towny.

OK that makes tons and tons of sense.
As does space's explanation.
That'll do me, I'm sticking with mail-mi for now.

Glooble, what is blatantly antitown about ash's play?


PPE. Giving scum a means of qt forming with town is a thing that people often talk about but I'm not sure I've ever actually seen. You could definitely imagine a scenario where a scum player has that role as a power to give them extra influence over town.  And I don't think it would be overpowered. Just a bit weird.
In any case I am giving you town points for it.
And your joint explanation of your wagon behaviour yesterday is good enough for me.

[2.71828.....]

vote: WCD

Space, why do you think WCD is town?  Because they opened a qt with you?  I guess they shared their power which made you believe they are town?

E, can you help me understand? Is it common that scum to have QT conversations with town folk? Wouldn’t that give scum too I have power? I had to tell both Space and Swan quite a bit about my role to explain why we were chatting, but I hadn’t considered that it could be a scummy power. (Honest questions...I’m really trying to learn.)

Creating a neighborhood is different than being masons.  There is no mod-confirmation of town to anyone involved.  Plus, given that this is RMM I would further argue that one must be very careful to argue that you have a "scummy" or "townie" power.  I was a town thief once and after claiming was lynched by an all town wagon because I had a "scummy" power (partially - I probably played super scummy too).

[WestCoastDidds]

Thanks, y'all.  I appreciate the insight.  I'm mos def town and have used my power to help town. I think if I had denied everything and left Space hanging, she'd have been lynched. I didn't do that and I further provided information about Swan that no one else had access to and would have died with him, had scum had their way.

[mail-mi]

So I believe Space... but that doesn't make me think that she is not scum. I think her role could easily be a scum power.

conspiracy theory: WCD and Space are partners and used WCD's power to have daychat. They then worked together to not get their partner LL lynched by turning it on me. Do I believe this theory? Maybe. I would have to reread day 2 to see exactly when wagons started forming up.

Also there's this:

You have to imagine that in my view I have a green colour on me, WCD and Hyper. I wanted to get a lot of green players onto one as-yet-unknown name, and then see who else joined.

Important part bolded. According to WCD's own description of her power thus far, Space has no idea whether WCD is town or not. She may believe that WCD is town, but she doesn't know for certain. Scumslip? Again, maybe. I'm not sure though.

Also important is the fact that Space was, indeed, roleblocked on N1. Since it was a JK, she could have been the target for the NK, but I think it's more likely that she was performing the night kill and was blocked.

Also what's going on with Glooble and Ashersky? I mean we haven't had anything come up that disagrees with e's cop claim. Also I just find it unlikely that there is a scum dayvig that was double hated if she killed town and was somehow lynchproof at the same time. Seems too powerful (though the double hated for killing town may balance out at least the davig part of it). I think that is town v town that are misreading each other.

[mail-mi]

Oh, and also, it is very difficult to imagine a situation where town dying is better than scum hearing a town player’s claim. SA refusing to claim under those pretenses is scummy or misguided, and I think all agree SA is too intelligent to be the latter.

In case it didn’t work, vote: Glooble.

why did you stop voting for SA, then, when you said just a few post earlier that you want her to be hammered?

[mail-mi]

I'm Fosyf Denche, the wealthy land-owner.

I just looked up Fosyf Denche on the Radch Wiki and I got nothing from the flavor other than the fact that she is a wealthy landowner. Flavor is flavor, but perhaps Faust only gave scum fakeclaims without flavor and SA went to look up the flavor name on the wiki to see what she could come up with? That's a stretch and most likely a moot point because trying to figure out a game based on flavor doesn't work very well.

[mail-mi]

Mail-mi, I can’t answr your question without making it a moot point. Sorry. If you don’t want to share I guess that’s fine. At this point I think knowing the AI-ness and not Ai-ness of any given player would be very helpful and protown for me, but I can’t guarantee that having that info out in the open wouldn’t be good for scum.

I'm going to decline answering that for now, because it may end up being really good for scum if they know.

[mail-mi]

I can verify that I opened a QT with Space D2 and that we talked throughout the day. I had a QT with Swan N2. This is how I know who he targeted and why I wasn’t able to tell Space that she had been JK’ed until today. I would have a QT with Swan today if he had not been killed.

I can have a QT with one person at a time. I have chosen people that I know and who I think are town to talk with because I am Radch-aligned and hope to maximize our chance of success.

I believe that there is probably someone else who is town who has this ability.

This is an extremely verifiable claim to make. I believe it. I also don't think it necessarily makes WCD town. But we should kill SA first.

[Haddock]

OK here's the thing.
Wcd's power does not automatically make her town, but I believe the way it all fell out was towny.  So I lean town!Wcd.

Space is still not the towniest but the description of the wcd + space plan re the lalight wagon gives a very believable town narrative to that play, which was previously a strong reason for finding space scummy.

So I don't think I particularly want to lynch space any more today, and mail-mi shouldn't be asking Ash why he changed his vote, because the answer is clear, even if you don't personally believe that the claims are towny.

I think this:
 

So I believe Space... but that doesn't make me think that she is not scum. I think her role could easily be a scum power.

conspiracy theory: WCD and Space are partners and used WCD's power to have daychat . They then worked together to not get their partner LL lynched by turning it on me. Do I believe this theory? Maybe. I would have to reread day 2 to see exactly when wagons started forming up.

could be a scum slip.
Like, why would mail-mi assume that this potential-scum!Wcd's power even remotely resembles the one claimed?  Scum don't need daychat to orchestrate something like this. And they might have daychat anyway.
The answer: because mail-mi knows wcd has that power.

I like my vote more and more.

[mail-mi]

@WCD, why did you re-target Swan?

She suggested that I should. She did not see the message about the QT until we were 24 or so hours into the night, so we started off a bit behind and she had lots of good ideas about how we could leverage a 3 person town-team (Space, Swan, Didds) to good effect. And, as you know, I was nervous about targeting someone to talk that might not be town. I knew that Swan was town when he told me about his role.

But how do you know SA is town? How did you know that Swan was town before she flipped? Nothing in your role so far as you have revealed makes it so you know that SA is town. You were in a neighborhood with her during D2. That's it. Unless you're also a cop with your neighborhood (which means we have, with all the claims, at least 3 cops this game, which is ridiculous and I don't believe it) you don't know.

[mail-mi]

I think this:
 

So I believe Space... but that doesn't make me think that she is not scum. I think her role could easily be a scum power.

conspiracy theory: WCD and Space are partners and used WCD's power to have daychat . They then worked together to not get their partner LL lynched by turning it on me. Do I believe this theory? Maybe. I would have to reread day 2 to see exactly when wagons started forming up.

could be a scum slip.
Like, why would mail-mi assume that this potential-scum!Wcd's power even remotely resembles the one claimed?  Scum don't need daychat to orchestrate something like this. And they might have daychat anyway.
The answer: because mail-mi knows wcd has that power.

um, no. That conspiracy theory was going off the assumption that WCD was scum and had her claimed power. I also don't currently believe that theory, it was just a postulation.

[Haddock]

I think this:
 

So I believe Space... but that doesn't make me think that she is not scum. I think her role could easily be a scum power.

conspiracy theory: WCD and Space are partners and used WCD's power to have daychat . They then worked together to not get their partner LL lynched by turning it on me. Do I believe this theory? Maybe. I would have to reread day 2 to see exactly when wagons started forming up.

could be a scum slip.
Like, why would mail-mi assume that this potential-scum!Wcd's power even remotely resembles the one claimed?  Scum don't need daychat to orchestrate something like this. And they might have daychat anyway.
The answer: because mail-mi knows wcd has that power.

um, no. That conspiracy theory was going off the assumption that WCD was scum and had her claimed power. I also don't currently believe that theory, it was just a postulation.

But why assume that?
Why assume that scum!wcd would have that power? It's ludicrously unlikely. (in the world where space is also scum it is, anyway).
And you've just assumed it without even making a point of the fact that you're assuming it. I believe as town you absolutely would have said "let's discuss this weird possibility where space and wcd are both scum AND wcd is telling the truth about her power for some reason"

[mail-mi]

I think this:
 

So I believe Space... but that doesn't make me think that she is not scum. I think her role could easily be a scum power.

conspiracy theory: WCD and Space are partners and used WCD's power to have daychat . They then worked together to not get their partner LL lynched by turning it on me. Do I believe this theory? Maybe. I would have to reread day 2 to see exactly when wagons started forming up.

could be a scum slip.
Like, why would mail-mi assume that this potential-scum!Wcd's power even remotely resembles the one claimed?  Scum don't need daychat to orchestrate something like this. And they might have daychat anyway.
The answer: because mail-mi knows wcd has that power.

um, no. That conspiracy theory was going off the assumption that WCD was scum and had her claimed power. I also don't currently believe that theory, it was just a postulation.

But why assume that?
Why assume that scum!wcd would have that power? It's ludicrously unlikely. (in the world where space is also scum it is, anyway).
And you've just assumed it without even making a point of the fact that you're assuming it. I believe as town you absolutely would have said "let's discuss this weird possibility where space and wcd are both scum AND wcd is telling the truth about her power for some reason"

How is it ludicrously unlikely? You pointed out that "scum neighborizer is something that we've talked about a lot but have never done." This is setup and mod speculation, so take it with a grain of salt, but doing a scum neighborizer sounds exactly like something faust would do. I mean, he put a cult (albeit a town-aligned one) in this game.

And again, I don't currently believe that theory. It was just something that I thought could be interesting and worth looking into should space flip scum.

[Haddock]

I think this:
 

So I believe Space... but that doesn't make me think that she is not scum. I think her role could easily be a scum power.

conspiracy theory: WCD and Space are partners and used WCD's power to have daychat . They then worked together to not get their partner LL lynched by turning it on me. Do I believe this theory? Maybe. I would have to reread day 2 to see exactly when wagons started forming up.

could be a scum slip.
Like, why would mail-mi assume that this potential-scum!Wcd's power even remotely resembles the one claimed?  Scum don't need daychat to orchestrate something like this. And they might have daychat anyway.
The answer: because mail-mi knows wcd has that power.

um, no. That conspiracy theory was going off the assumption that WCD was scum and had her claimed power. I also don't currently believe that theory, it was just a postulation.

But why assume that?
Why assume that scum!wcd would have that power? It's ludicrously unlikely. (in the world where space is also scum it is, anyway).
And you've just assumed it without even making a point of the fact that you're assuming it. I believe as town you absolutely would have said "let's discuss this weird possibility where space and wcd are both scum AND wcd is telling the truth about her power for some reason"

How is it ludicrously unlikely? You pointed out that "scum neighborizer is something that we've talked about a lot but have never done." This is setup and mod speculation, so take it with a grain of salt, but doing a scum neighborizer sounds exactly like something faust would do. I mean, he put a cult (albeit a town-aligned one) in this game.

And again, I don't currently believe that theory. It was just something that I thought could be interesting and worth looking into should space flip scum.

If space and wcd are partner scum (your words not mine), then both their claims are totally irrelevant. We no longer have any information whatsoever about their powers, and it is madness to believe any part of what they've told us about their powers, up to and especially including some imaginary qt they have together.

If you were town, this would be obvious to you. But I believe you're scum and that's why your natural instinct was to believe them about their powers.

[Haddock]

Other people weighing in here would be good.
Obviously mail-mi is going to insist that this isn't a scum slip  but it looks a lot like one to me and I'm gonna struggle to let it go.

I mean hey, I was voting mail-mi anyway. But y'know

[2.71828.....]

I wouldn't mind seeing mail-mi claim more fully.

[SpaceAnemone]

vote: WCD

Space, why do you think WCD is town?  Because they opened a qt with you?  I guess they shared their power which made you believe they are town?

I had a pretty strong townread on WCD already at the end of D1. My continued confidence that she's town is all reads-based, rather than hard-evidence-based, if that's what you're asking.

Her playstyle felt too confident and open to be disingenuous, but hesitant enough to show actual thought. If she'd been weaving a complicated web of lies, that would have constituted considerable risk-taking on her part, and she seemed too relaxed and able to make small-talk (especially in our QT).

We didn't exactly immediately just jump to trusting each other, but she was open about her role and quite ready to give me details even though they apparently started out contradicting my own expectation (which was that I'd been RBd, which I thought should have triggered her motion detector).

I've seen town!WCD get scumread previously for being chatty and "fluffy", and I've also been on the wrong end of that kind of town opinion before, so her overall behaviour felt very comfortably consistent with what my less experienced town self might have done, except I'd've been trying to throw in more data analysis tricks.

[ashersky]

Regarding the SA claim of WCD’s role first:

Scum neighborizer and the many variants thereof are definitely a thing and have definitely been used here on this site.  Yuma and I famously used a Mentor who played extremely well in M31, for an example off the top of my head.

WCD’s role is alignment neutral at best, and SA’s seemingly willful ignorance of its scum possiblities are worrying, unlikely, and therefore scummy.

[ashersky]

Regarding WCD’s claims about Swan’s actions obtained via unconfirmed sources (although SA confirms the power itself), it makes them less believable, which actually helps SA slightly, as the block theory loses a few points.

[ashersky]

Regarding SA’s claim; seems to make sense in this game’s design, so could be real or fake, town or scum. No scum points for the claim itself.

Scum points for not targeting 2.7, the claimed cop. You want to see a player targeted by scum with that role, so why not target the most likely player to be blocked or killed?  Yes, he claimed 1-shot, but literally all cops should do that if they have to claim on D2.   So scum points there.

[ashersky]

So, net results from the SA/WCD claims:

SA: credibly possible claim, some useful information if true, gained back some town points based on WCD’s possible scum alignment, lost them with untowny use of own claim. Overall neutral, still a strong lynch target.

WCD: was fairly towny to me pre-claim; claimed info about her own actions seem highly suspect, the idea that neighborizing can create super town teams is not credible. Drops from town read to the SA/mail-mi group.

[ashersky]

On MM, reminds me of early MM actually, where every post makes him seem scummier and scummier.

[ashersky]

So, on why Glooble is most definitely probably scum.

A player’s behavior is necessarily dictated by their in-game alignment. Non-town aligned players may try to replicate their town personas, or just play in a new way, but I do believe it is impossible to 100% suppress your alignment because, in general one plays to win.

So, point the first: Glooble is the only player truly focused on my next vig shot. She’s brought it up multiple times, while basically no one else has. And here is the thing with that, town players don’t care if I have another shot. At least, not in a worried way.

I posit that Glooble is worried I will shoot her. I named her D1 as the preferred target over mcmc, she’s brought up my shot multiple times, and when I changed my vote at a seemingly odd time, she immediately reacted in just about the most scared scum way possible, by again raising the prospect of my shot and going on the offensive.

—hitting post to not lose this, tbd in next post

[ashersky]

I do think Glooble is at a disadvantage here, not having played during the years that I did.  Most of you who have have pointed out that I have a fairly grating, annoying online persona. It has resulted in plenty of friction, but it also can goad scum into slipping up out of frustration. And I think Glooble is frustrated with me and that has made her sloppy because she assumes others are, too.

I believe she’s had the same issue with Awaclus, which is coincidentally what makes Awaclus such an asset, when he’s town.

So here’s where I come down on this: I think Glooble is scum this game. I could be wrong, but I’m probably right. That’s in stark contrast to Glooble’s read of me, where she is either wrong or lying.