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[WestCoastDidds]

Hi- I’m just dropping in for a second before dinner. I’ll try to read and really respond tomorrow.

But in the event this info helps more sooner than later... I monitored DatSwan last night. His target was Ashersky.

[jotheonah]

Huh.

[jotheonah]

Why jailkeep a dayvig? I guess we don’t know enough about the setup to know if that would work.

[Glooble]

Lots of soft claiming going on. Are we sure this is the time?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Hi- I’m just dropping in for a second before dinner. I’ll try to read and really respond tomorrow.

But in the event this info helps more sooner than later... I monitored DatSwan last night. His target was Ashersky.

So why did you decide to track DerSwan? And why did you decide to claim this before dinner?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Also yeah, we have 1 dead scum, ladies. If we count the cult as town that's 2 scum out of 10 players, so 2 mislynches and a no-lynch before 5 player LYLO, and that's worst case. We shouldn't claim today.

If Ash dayvigs town that's just the no-lynch and we still shouldn't claim.

[jotheonah]

I prefer to let people make their own decisions about claiming.

[WestCoastDidds]

Joth was speculating about things that might clear mail-mi or others, and I had some specific information about Swan that might be useful for others to know. So, now we know.

Like I said before I’m super swamped with being professional and adult right now, so I don’t have the bandwidth to respond to other stuff right now, and I’m not really sure when I’ll acrually be able to contribute more fully...

[mail-mi]

It annoys me that hyper never confirmed that her information was mod-confirmed.  if you see what I mean.  The information might have come in like a message from the cult or something, making it unreliable.  I dunno.  Probably not.

Jeesus she actually did so on 2 separate occasions.  OK ignore my saying that, sorry.  Also sorry hyper.

Just found the mail-mi claim.  Had seen it earlier but not processed it cos the day was ending.  Yup.  It's a stinker...
vote: mail-mi

honestly i cannot blame you for voting me for that. it sounds awful. I hate to use the WIFOM argument here but, really, would I be that dumb as scum? claiming cop when we already have a cop and a result on someone who's already sentenced to death? There are SO MANY better fakeclaims I could do. We weren't scrambling, we had about 24 hours left (I think) and so I had plenty of time to come up with a better fakeclaim.

Also, if I was scum, I would have seen how Lalight's not-super-townie fakeclaim was working against her, and would have come up with a more solid fakeclaim.

So why did you claim? Why did you feel it necessary to out yourself as a cop at that exact juncture? It's not like there was a massive amount of pressure on you.

Because the deadline was coming up soon and there was a shift in the votes coming toward me. I was about to go to bed and be inactive for the next 8ish hours, and I know how much can happen on the forums while I'm asleep (I woke up to 3 pages at the start of day 2, I think). Also I did not full claim

[mail-mi]

OK here's a thing for me to sleep on.
Is waiting to lynch mail-mi better? Like, we think scum will v much want to kill mail-mi before more results happen. Can we wait and see whether thag happens? Or is that too late by then?

Also by that argument I guess E should be dead by now.

Hmm

I have reason to believe mail-mi will not get a result anyway. I think they were Swan's jailkeep target. I'd be interested to know if anyone can verify though.

I didn't cop anyone last night, I can only cop on even nights.

[SpaceAnemone]

I can't believe this is what we're spending our beginning of the day talking about.

vote: Awaclus

We can do better.

Vote: WestCoastDidds

On wagon D1, off wagon D2

Hmm.  Hard to argue with that.  A bit obvious maybe?  Then again WCD is new.

For the record, I strongly townread WCD.

Also worth noting:  Space was offwagon.

I wanted to join WCD (whom I trusted as townie) on the alternative mail-mi wagon because I couldn't feel the Swan wagon (which at that point was also at 2 votes), and I wanted to see what people did if there was an apparent going concern that wasn't LL. For me, I get WCD and myself as green-coloured names on a wagon on an unknown player. Whoever joins in 3rd/4th place is more likely not to be the same faction as mail-mi, so it gets information even while we're queueing up LL for the lynch.

I really really don't like the above.  At no point (again, that I can find) does Space vote for Lalight.  And yet says that LL is their main lynch candidate, while voting elsewhere.  What's that about?  In light of LL's flip I'd say that looks really scummy.  It gives you something to point to later and say "no but look I wanted LL lynched too" without ever actually helping the lynch.

I did want to lynch LL, but I also wanted to hunt for the other scums too with the time and resources left in D2 (before more weird night stuff and cult conversions came in to mess with my reads on people).

Wouldn't you say that it's interesting that the only other person who joined the wagon was LL herself, and even then, she eventually realised that it was too useful to town to let all that continue, and self-hammered rather than see her buddies tempted into exposing themselves on the mail-mi wagon?

I also note that you are now voting mail-mi, so you can't exactly accuse me of not having had grounds to be suspicious in the first place: mail-mi's behaviour hasn't been townie.

Space I'd like you to explain yourself a bit, I think.  Just, like: why the above vote, why didn't you ever vote Lalight, why the lack of votes in general, etc.

I mean, why vote LL at that point? Just to end the day sooner? I don't think it was particularly unreasonable for me to have assumed the day would still be going on at 9 or 10pm our time the day after I cast the mail-mi vote, even though it ended before noon (UK time). It just shows that more people agreed that LL was the correct lynch choice than could actually fit on the wagon, which is not that surprising when someone looks like they've probably scumslipped.

[SpaceAnemone]

It's also worth noting that by saying someone seems townie, right now I mean not-LL-aligned.

I'd guess another person got targeted last night for conversion to Hyper's cult, meaning everyone we thought was townie yesterday might not necessarily be purely townie today.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I prefer to let people make their own decisions about claiming.

Are you saying we shouldn't point out when people are starting to make sub-optimal decisions about claiming?

I mean, I'm not like breaking into your house and holding a gun to your head and telling you not to claim (that would be against the rules against communicating outside the thread) but it's a legitimately bad move if it isn't giving us something important right now.

And everyone's decisions do impact everyone else. Firstly because we know we have VTs in the setup, and secondly because some roles are going to be better than others, and scum don't need the help with who to target.

I debated asking you the question I did, decided it was worth it, but we seem to be claiming for no reason at all and this isn't good. Yet. We definitely need to full claim before LYLO.

But this is a team game, strategic decisions shouldn't be made on a whim and ignoring everyone else.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Sorry if that came out harsh, long day, very slightly sick (mildly sniffly, but annoying) and strategic advice being disregarded as "let people make their own decisions" bothers me I guess.

[jotheonah]

I prefer to let people make their own decisions about claiming.

Are you saying we shouldn't point out when people are starting to make sub-optimal decisions about claiming?

You don't have enough information to say whether my claiming is suboptimal. Only I have that information.

[2.71828.....]

I really like Haddock's point about Space.  I could lynch Space.

[2.71828.....]

Space and WCD are rising to the top for me as scum.  This is where I am at right now.

Confirmed Town: e, Ashersky
strong town reads: Glooble, mail-mi, Awaclus
town reads: Joth
Not too sure: Haddock, UoS
scummy: Space, WCD

[mail-mi]

Space and WCD are rising to the top for me as scum.  This is where I am at right now.

Confirmed Town: e, Ashersky
strong town reads: Glooble, mail-mi, Awaclus
town reads: Joth
Not too sure: Haddock, UoS
scummy: Space, WCD

switch awaclus and haddock, then make the "town" category the "slight scum" category, and move the confirmed town to just strong town and this is my reads list.

[faust]

Vote Count 3.1

Glooble (1): ashersky
Awaclus (2): Glooble, jotheonah
WestCoastDidds (1): 2.71828.....
jotheonah (1): Awaclus
mail-mi (1): Haddock
SpaceAnemone (1): mail-mi

Not Voting (3): SpaceAnemone, WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 3 ends on January 31, 2019, 01:00:00 am.

[2.71828.....]

Faust, can you fix the D3 ends date? Says January 31

[ashersky]

I'll post another thought on the Glooble post in a second.  But I guess a popsquiz is in order.

Would like to lynch {SA, Glooble, mail-mi}
Null {Awaclus, WCD, Haddock, UoS}
Towny {joth, 2.7}

[ashersky]

Bold of us to assume “Radch-aligned” = the good guys, I suppose.

Vote: Glooble

I’m confused still. The quote makes it seem like you didn’t know/realize that the words “Radch-aligned” = town.

He's talking about the flavor. We all assumed (or at least those that know the flavor assumed) that protagonists of the book = town, but because of the flip we know differently.

This, and some posts following it, were the answers to my question.  Some thoughts on that:

1) Glooble never explained herself.  At least, not in response to me.  mail-mi did the explaining.

2) mail-mi did the explaining for another person's thought process, which is always, always scummy behavior.  It helps that they are both scum reads, so they could just be in it together and mail-mi is covering for a partner.

3) "talking about the flavor" sounds like a ret-con to me.  "Radch-aligned" is CLEARLY referring to the in-game alignments of a made-up mafia game by faust on f.ds.  It literally has the word "aligned" in it.  For those who might not know, aligned comes from alignment, which is an integral part of our game here.

The second part of the quote is "the good guys."  Now, in the mafia context, that's town.  In other contexts, it can mean lots of things.  But here's where the "she's talking about the flavor" falls apart.  Glooble has apparently read the book(s).  I've read the first book myself.  Based on that knowledge, one can make some inferences as to how the alignments in this game would shake out, although it doesn't really matter unless you are going to heavily weight the important of flavor claims.

But look at the actual statement. 

Bold of us to assume “Radch-aligned” = the good guys, I suppose.

"Radch-aligned" is in quotation marks, clearly referring to the in-game alignment.  She argues that making the assuming that said alignment is the alignment of the good guys is bold.  The "it's a flavor statement" arguers would have you believe that the "good guys" mentioned in that line refers to characters in the book.  The "it's a scummy statement worth voting for" supporters would say the "good guys" are the town players in the game.

Why do I think it was the second and not the first?  Glooble was one of the main players who was hyper-focused on the usage of "she" in the book, carrying it over into the game.  While being incredibly conscious of this point in the novel/world of the flavor, would she then go on to refer to the "guys" in the book?  Or is it more like that the generic "good guys" saying often used as a synonym for "our team" or "the not bad guys" or "town (in mafia games' case)" is what was meant?

I also don't see the reason or need for this comment if it's about flavor.  There's no value-added for either town or scum to say it.  But scum would say it to put the focus on how they themselves received the words "Radch-aligned" in their QT.

So, for a number of reasons, I reject mail-mi's cover story for Glooble's scum slip.

***

On the other hand, it's an odd scumslip to make.  But hey, Glooble's been out of the game for so long, who knows.

[Haddock]

I can't believe this is what we're spending our beginning of the day talking about.

vote: Awaclus

We can do better.

Vote: WestCoastDidds

On wagon D1, off wagon D2

Hmm.  Hard to argue with that.  A bit obvious maybe?  Then again WCD is new.

For the record, I strongly townread WCD.

Also worth noting:  Space was offwagon.

I wanted to join WCD (whom I trusted as townie) on the alternative mail-mi wagon because I couldn't feel the Swan wagon (which at that point was also at 2 votes), and I wanted to see what people did if there was an apparent going concern that wasn't LL. For me, I get WCD and myself as green-coloured names on a wagon on an unknown player. Whoever joins in 3rd/4th place is more likely not to be the same faction as mail-mi, so it gets information even while we're queueing up LL for the lynch.

I really really don't like the above.  At no point (again, that I can find) does Space vote for Lalight.  And yet says that LL is their main lynch candidate, while voting elsewhere.  What's that about?  In light of LL's flip I'd say that looks really scummy.  It gives you something to point to later and say "no but look I wanted LL lynched too" without ever actually helping the lynch.

I did want to lynch LL, but I also wanted to hunt for the other scums too with the time and resources left in D2 (before more weird night stuff and cult conversions came in to mess with my reads on people).

Wouldn't you say that it's interesting that the only other person who joined the wagon was LL herself, and even then, she eventually realised that it was too useful to town to let all that continue, and self-hammered rather than see her buddies tempted into exposing themselves on the mail-mi wagon?

I also note that you are now voting mail-mi, so you can't exactly accuse me of not having had grounds to be suspicious in the first place: mail-mi's behaviour hasn't been townie.

Space I'd like you to explain yourself a bit, I think.  Just, like: why the above vote, why didn't you ever vote Lalight, why the lack of votes in general, etc.

I mean, why vote LL at that point? Just to end the day sooner? I don't think it was particularly unreasonable for me to have assumed the day would still be going on at 9 or 10pm our time the day after I cast the mail-mi vote, even though it ended before noon (UK time). It just shows that more people agreed that LL was the correct lynch choice than could actually fit on the wagon, which is not that surprising when someone looks like they've probably scumslipped.

Intentionally or not, you're dodging the point.
Failing to commit to a vote for someone you are claiming to find scummiest is explicitly antitown.

1) it means that you as scum can throw shade at your partners and look good in retrospect without ever helping them be lynched.

2) it means that even if you are town, it is much more difficult to analyse your position after you flip: did you actually find x scummier than y or should we assume because you voted for y and not x that that was what you truly believed?

3) the point that you have already somewhat addressed: voting puts pressure on players, which is usually a good thing, making town players play townier and making scum players possibly slip.




Separately: Ash I'm sorry I still think you're wrong. "radch-aligned" refers to alignment obviously but "good guys" looked like a flavour comment.

If Glooble had said made the same statement but with the word "protagonists" instead of "good guys", I really don't think we'd be having this discussion. And I can't bring myself to interpret the statement as being intended to mean anything else.

[Glooble]

Ash i don’t know how to explain myself any better. Among my friend group “guys” is basically a gender-neutral term and I did not think of “good guys” as gendered in any way. Other people explained my logic because it made sense to them and/or they had the same initial thought, which was “oh. We’re not aligned with the protagonists of the book. Huh.”

[Glooble]

Guys, I was just pointing out that normally, in a flavored game, scum is flavored as the villains of the source material and town is flavored as the heroes. As Breq is the protagonist of the books, obviously Faust flipped that. How does pointing that out make me scummy?

Also what motivation would I, as scum, have had to start the wagon on my own partner then push it for the entire day (save one brief moment when I thought it was losing traction and switched to my next biggest scumread?)

Who, by the way, is now my biggest scumread.

vote: Awaclus

This post is from before mail-mi even showed up for the day, btw so i did explain myself. And joth, who you’ve expressed a townread on, had exactly the same first thought as I did, he just expressed it more eloquently (because he wasn’t posting at 1 in the morning in a fit of insomnia.)