Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[GendoIkari]

That does not follow my latter case at all. My cases were about Possession turns, and the latter one was in accordance with your explanation. I was saying that with Possession turns, it actually does matter if we add extra turns or extend the game with an extra round. I was thinking that extending the game with 1 round would mean that the game continues with the next player who would normally have a turn if the game hadn't ended (so player B in Ingix's scenario):

Round 4) A, B, C, D, E, F
Round 5) A, [B poss. by A], [C poss. by B*], B, C, D, E, F

Ah, yeah sorry I misunderstood your previous post. When you said "In the latter case, the Fleet turns would start with B" I thought it was a scenario where A hadn't bought Fleet; so B was starting just because B was the first player with a turn in normal turn order.

Alice, Bob and Clara all buy Fleet. Alice plays Possession. Bob possessed by Alice triggers end-game. In what order do the Fleet turns go? The rulebook says: "The extra turns go in order starting with the next player after the one that just took a turn." Does that mean it's Clara, Alice, Bob? Or does the game extend normally with 1 round - Bob, Clara, Alice?

Yeah this is kind of unfortunate either way. The natural thing seems like it really should be Bob first, because had the game not ended, it would have been Bob's turn. Seems clear that that's the intended way for Fleet to work. However, you're correct in pointing out that the actual wording of the FAQ differs in this case. But I don't think this would be the first time that the FAQ says something where there is an assumed "normally", and specific card interactions can make it so that something different happens from what the FAQ says happens.

[Donald X.]

Maybe Donald can settle what exactly happens.

Alice, Bob and Clara all buy Fleet. Alice plays Possession. Bob possessed by Alice triggers end-game. In what order do the Fleet turns go? The rulebook says: "The extra turns go in order starting with the next player after the one that just took a turn." Does that mean it's Clara, Alice, Bob? Or does the game extend normally with 1 round - Bob, Clara, Alice?

It means, the last player to take a regular turn. Bob goes next.

[Jeebus]

Then I have this tentative description:

After end-game is triggered, all players who have bought Fleet get an extra turn. The active player (the last player to take a regular turn) gets their Fleet turn last. Otherwise normal turn order rules apply: Any extra turns already in queue (from Outpost, Possession or Mission) - which would otherwise not be played - are played, starting with the active player. So are any extra turns produced during this extra round. Each player can order their extra turns. When the last Fleet turn has been played, the game ends and no more extra turns are played.

[Jeebus]

Say an extra round starts with player A. Player A has bought Fleet, and player B, to his left, hasn't. If player A, during his Fleet turn, Possesses player B, then has him buy Fleet during the Possession turn, will player B end up getting his Fleet turn, or is it too late for that?

Going by the card wording, I'm calling it too late.

Looking at this headache-inducing thread again, and trying to formulate the rules, I paused at this post. In this scenario we must assume that there is a player C who has bought Fleet, right? Otherwise the game would be over after player A's Fleet turn, and the Possession turn wouldn't happen.

Another question: There are two players, both have bought Fleet. Player A takes theirs first and plays Possession. If this had been a normal round, the Possession turn would happen now, before player B's regular turn. But since it's a Fleet round, player B gets to order the two turns, and could actually choose to take their Fleet turn first, thereby causing the game to end before the Possession turn happens. Is this correct?

[Jeebus]

Even one more question.

In a 2-player game, if Alice plays Possession twice, and Bob being Possessed plays Possession, we have two extra turns in wait, one for Alice and one for Bob. The rules say that Bob is the active player, since he had a turn last (even though Alice is the one who had a regular turn last). This means that Bob plays his extra turn first. (Then Alice plays hers, and then it's Bob's regular turn.)

Now assume both have bought Fleet, and the above happens. But on Bob's turn when he plays Possession, he also ends the game. Now there are two Possession turns in wait, plus the Fleet turns. Per the Fleet rules, since Alice had a regular turn last, Bob plays his Fleet turn first. But when are the two Possession turns played? Following normal rules, Bob had a turn last, so Bob would get his Possession turn first. Or, since Alice is the one who last had a regular turn, is she the one who gets her Possession turn first? It's weird that the order of extra turns would be different in a normal round and in a Fleet round.

If Bob gets his Possession turn first, he can take it before or after his Fleet turn. Whatever he chooses, Bob's Fleet turn goes before Alice's Possession turn, right?

[GendoIkari]

Even one more question.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19297.0

[Donald X.]

Another question: There are two players, both have bought Fleet. Player A takes theirs first and plays Possession. If this had been a normal round, the Possession turn would happen now, before player B's regular turn. But since it's a Fleet round, player B gets to order the two turns, and could actually choose to take their Fleet turn first, thereby causing the game to end before the Possession turn happens. Is this correct?

It sounds right. I only want to spend so long staring at card wordings and FAQs when the situation hasn't actually come up.

Edit: Wait I don't think so, see below.

[Donald X.]

In a 2-player game, if Alice plays Possession twice, and Bob being Possessed plays Possession, we have two extra turns in wait, one for Alice and one for Bob. The rules say that Bob is the active player, since he had a turn last (even though Alice is the one who had a regular turn last). This means that Bob plays his extra turn first. (Then Alice plays hers, and then it's Bob's regular turn.)

Now assume both have bought Fleet, and the above happens. But on Bob's turn when he plays Possession, he also ends the game. Now there are two Possession turns in wait, plus the Fleet turns. Per the Fleet rules, since Alice had a regular turn last, Bob plays his Fleet turn first. But when are the two Possession turns played? Following normal rules, Bob had a turn last, so Bob would get his Possession turn first. Or, since Alice is the one who last had a regular turn, is she the one who gets her Possession turn first? It's weird that the order of extra turns would be different in a normal round and in a Fleet round.

If Bob gets his Possession turn first, he can take it before or after his Fleet turn. Whatever he chooses, Bob's Fleet turn goes before Alice's Possession turn, right?

The Fleet turns proceed around the table like normal turns, which means if anyone has fleet and you play Possession and e.g. empty the Provinces the same turn, the Possession-generated turn happens next like it normally would.

Your turns keep happening as if the game hadn't ended. Answers to weird situations should be the same as for "Keep playing as if the game hadn't ended until everyone with a token on Fleet when the game would have ended has another turn, skipping turns for players who don't have a token on Fleet."

Edit: So. You don't get to order Possession vs. Fleet turns. Fleet turns are this extra round of turns thing.

[Jeebus]

The Fleet turns proceed around the table like normal turns, which means if anyone has fleet and you play Possession and e.g. empty the Provinces the same turn, the Possession-generated turn happens next like it normally would.

Your turns keep happening as if the game hadn't ended. Answers to weird situations should be the same as for "Keep playing as if the game hadn't ended until everyone with a token on Fleet when the game would have ended has another turn, skipping turns for players who don't have a token on Fleet."

Edit: So. You don't get to order Possession vs. Fleet turns. Fleet turns are this extra round of turns thing.

Does that mean you're changing what you wrote earlier in this thread?

[Donald X.]

The Fleet turns proceed around the table like normal turns, which means if anyone has fleet and you play Possession and e.g. empty the Provinces the same turn, the Possession-generated turn happens next like it normally would.

Your turns keep happening as if the game hadn't ended. Answers to weird situations should be the same as for "Keep playing as if the game hadn't ended until everyone with a token on Fleet when the game would have ended has another turn, skipping turns for players who don't have a token on Fleet."

Edit: So. You don't get to order Possession vs. Fleet turns. Fleet turns are this extra round of turns thing.

Does that mean you're changing what you wrote earlier in this thread?

Yes. You don't get to order Fleet turns. Fleet doesn't create extra turns; it creates an extra round of turns, and then only some people participate in it. That's how I read it.

[Jeebus]

The Fleet turns proceed around the table like normal turns, which means if anyone has fleet and you play Possession and e.g. empty the Provinces the same turn, the Possession-generated turn happens next like it normally would.

Your turns keep happening as if the game hadn't ended. Answers to weird situations should be the same as for "Keep playing as if the game hadn't ended until everyone with a token on Fleet when the game would have ended has another turn, skipping turns for players who don't have a token on Fleet."

Edit: So. You don't get to order Possession vs. Fleet turns. Fleet turns are this extra round of turns thing.

Does that mean you're changing what you wrote earlier in this thread?

Yes. You don't get to order Fleet turns. Fleet doesn't create extra turns; it creates an extra round of turns, and then only some people participate in it. That's how I read it.

Ok, so this is a kind of a change from the rulebook, where it says "extra turns". Maybe it doesn't have to be read literally.

The good thing is that the turn order now makes sense without the need for extra rules. But do the Fleet turns still not count for tie-breaker?

[Donald X.]

Ok, so this is a kind of a change from the rulebook, where it says "extra turns". Maybe it doesn't have to be read literally.

The good thing is that the turn order now makes sense without the need for extra rules. But do the Fleet turns still not count for tie-breaker?

Tentatively they still don't count for the tie-breaker.

[Jeebus]

So here is an updated tentative description:

After end-game is triggered*, the game instead continues for one more round if any player has bought Fleet. Only players who have bought Fleet get a new turn in this round. Any extra turns (from Outpost, Possession or Mission) or abilities like Donate or Mountain Pass - which would otherwise not be resolved - are resolved as normal considering that the game continues. So are any extra turns etc. that are triggered during this round. However, when the last Fleet turn has been played, the game ends immediately. Just like extra turns, Fleet turns don't count for tie-breaking.

*EDIT: Maybe clearer: After the game would normally end...

[Donald X.]

So here is an updated tentative description:

After end-game is triggered, the game instead continues for one more round if any player has bought Fleet. Only players who have bought Fleet get a new turn in this round. Any extra turns (from Outpost, Possession or Mission) or abilities like Donate or Mountain Pass - which would otherwise not be resolved - are resolved as normal considering that the game continues. So are any extra turns etc. that are triggered during this round. However, when the last Fleet turn has been played, the game ends immediately. Just like extra turns, Fleet turns don't count for tie-breaking.

Yes. Sounds good.

[crj]

the game instead continues for one more round if any player has bought Fleet
[...]
when the last Fleet turn has been played, the game ends immediately

To me, those two statements verge on being mutually contradictory.

Consider the case where there are players A,B,C,D. A and C have bought Fleet, and D triggers game-end. The former statement suggests there is a moment between C's turn ending and the game ending, during which D is passed over before the game ends, opening the spectre of C being able to Donate, Outpost, etc.

But the second statement closes that door.

Is this a clearer alternative?

"The game enters the about-to-end state when, at the end of someone's turn, [Provinces/Colonies/piles]. Once the game is about-to-end, non-Fleet players miss their normal turns and the game ends when, at the end of someone's turn, every Fleet player has taken one more normal turn."


Just to check the corner case on the corner case, am I right that if someone plays Possession during the Fleet round and makes the Possessed player buy Fleet, the Possessed player does then get a Fleet turn, and this could even prolong the game by a turn in the ridiculous situation that A and B have Fleet but C doesn't, then:

• A plays Possession on their Fleet turn
• A makes B play Possession on their Possessed turn
• B makes C buy Fleet on their Possessed turn
• B takes their Fleet turn
• C does get to take their Fleet turn?

Taking the corner case on the corner case on the corner case, what happens if B and C have Fleet but A doesn't, in a three-player game with C triggering game-end:

• (A doesn't get a Fleet turn at this because they don't have Fleet. Yet...)
• B Possesses C on their Fleet turn
• B has C Possess A on their Possessed turn
• C has A buy Fleet on their Possessed turn
• C takes their Fleet turn
• Now, does the game end, or does A get a Fleet turn?

[Jeebus]

Consider the case where there are players A,B,C,D. A and C have bought Fleet, and D triggers game-end. The former statement suggests there is a moment between C's turn ending and the game ending, during which D is passed over before the game ends, opening the spectre of C being able to Donate, Outpost, etc.

I don't think your alternative is an improvement. Terms like "about-to-end state" are not necessary.

The intention was that "After end-game is triggered" only referred to the normal end-game conditions. If it's necessary to clarify that, all we need is to write "After the game would normally end" instead. That's how I'm phrasing it in my rules document actually.

Just to check the corner case on the corner case, am I right that if someone plays Possession during the Fleet round and makes the Possessed player buy Fleet, the Possessed player does then get a Fleet turn

No, this was answered by Donald earlier in this thread.

[chipperMDW]

Just to check the corner case on the corner case, am I right that if someone plays Possession during the Fleet round and makes the Possessed player buy Fleet, the Possessed player does then get a Fleet turn

No, this was answered by Donald earlier in this thread.

Although I guess I didn't ask enough to determine exactly when it's too late to buy Fleet meaningfully. Based on the wording on Fleet, I assume it's "after a turn has ended with a game end condition being met." But it might also be "after a player's turn has been skipped in the Fleet round" or "after a player has taken a Fleet turn." (Not that there should be a way to do anything between when the Fleet round starts and the first Fleet turn, but hey, maybe someday.)

[Donald X.]

Although I guess I didn't ask enough to determine exactly when it's too late to buy Fleet meaningfully. Based on the wording on Fleet, I assume it's "after a turn has ended with a game end condition being met." But it might also be "after a player's turn has been skipped in the Fleet round" or "after a player has taken a Fleet turn." (Not that there should be a way to do anything between when the Fleet round starts and the first Fleet turn, but hey, maybe someday.)

Fleet locks in at the point at which the game would otherwise end. It's the end of someone's turn, we check for the game-end condition, it's met, but there's Fleet. We see who has tokens on it right then.

This is just me trying to be true to the wording on Fleet.

[crj]

I don't think your alternative is an improvement. Terms like "about-to-end state" are not necessary.

Even if you don't give the state a label, it has to exist: in a Fleet/Ambassador game, there's nothing else which can let you know whether or not the game should end.

Though actually, it turns out you also need to track who triggered game-end, and who had bought Fleet at that point.

(I'm assuming there's someone working on the online version who's already formalised this stuff?)

[Asper]

Wait, so if I am the last player in turn order who bought Fleet, my Outposts are worthless, but the Outposts of other players aren't?

[GendoIkari]

Wait, so if I am the last player in turn order who bought Fleet, my Outposts are worthless, but the Outposts of other players aren't?

Yup. At first that sounds arbitrarily unfair; but it’s the same as the rules without Fleet. If you are the last person of a regular game to take a turn; your Outpost on your final turn is worthless. And with Fleet; you may have turned your normally worthless last-turn Outpost into an extra turn before Fleet round begins.

[Asper]

Wait, so if I am the last player in turn order who bought Fleet, my Outposts are worthless, but the Outposts of other players aren't?

Yup. At first that sounds arbitrarily unfair; but it’s the same as the rules without Fleet. If you are the last person of a regular game to take a turn; your Outpost on your final turn is worthless. And with Fleet; you may have turned your normally worthless last-turn Outpost into an extra turn before Fleet round begins.

Good point, it's me who triggers the Fleet turns, so I can't complain.

[Heikes Zweiter]

I assume Possession works only if the left player has bought Fleet, correct? It does not skip similar Masquerade players which did not buy Fleet?   

[Heikes Zweiter]

Wait, so if I am the last player in turn order who bought Fleet, my Outposts are worthless, but the Outposts of other players aren't?

Yup. At first that sounds arbitrarily unfair; but it’s the same as the rules without Fleet. If you are the last person of a regular game to take a turn; your Outpost on your final turn is worthless. And with Fleet; you may have turned your normally worthless last-turn Outpost into an extra turn before Fleet round begins.

Do i interpret correctly that the player triggering end condition get extra turns triggered in that same turn, then the other players with Fleet get their "normal" turns plus possible extra turns, but the ending player gets only their "normal" turn without extra turns triggered during that?

[Jeebus]

I assume Possession works only if the left player has bought Fleet, correct? It does not skip similar Masquerade players which did not buy Fleet?

If Alice plays Possession and ends the game normally, she will Possess Bob - as long as somebody has bought Fleet. First Bob gets a turn (Possessed by Alice), then all Fleet-players get a turn, starting with Bob and ending with Alice.

If Alice ends the game normally, and then Bob plays Possession on his Fleet turn, Bob Possesses the next player - as long as there are more Fleet turns. If Bob is the last Fleet player, he won't Possess anybody, because the game (Fleet round) ends immediately after his Fleet turn. If Alice plays Possession on her Fleet turn, she will not Possess anybody, because she is the last player.