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[AdamH]

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfg1XjzjruG8Tz1eSUCc2f_UYOSP_CgLZBWFtHJfeM5adsUXg/viewform

It's that time again where I collect the first impressions of the community right after seeing the cards from the newest expansion: Renaissance! Please offer your opinions on how powerful each card/project in the new expansion is on a scale from 0 to 10.

I'll leave this poll up for about a week and at that time I'll collect the data and make a blog post presenting it similar to this one for Nocturne -- of course I will link that post here and anywhere else I solicit entries for the form.

Below is a copypasta of what's in the Google Form in case you want some more detail about this without clicking on the link:

Let's have some fun by doing this right after seeing the Renaissance cards for the first time! Just your first impressions on these cards will be useful to know, so we can see how things compare to when we've had more time to play with the cards.

Rate each Renaissance card (or card-shaped-object) on a scale from 0-10, with 10 being the most powerful. The cost of the card, not just the effect, should be taken into account for your score.

0. In case you'd like a reference for what everything does:

A pdf of the Renaissance rulebook can be found here: http://riograndegames.com/Game/1334-Dominion-Renaissance
The DS Wiki page for Renaissance can be found here: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Renaissance

1. Your name is "required," you can put anything there though -- I'd prefer some username that I can recognize so that I can make sure submissions are unique. If you troll me, I reserve the right to not count your input :-P

If you use a name that you've used in a previous one of my surveys and you'd like your ratings to be linked to your previous entries, please use the same name you've used before (minor typos or variations are OK as long as I know it's you) -- here's the list of all current entries:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hdwfog1xPuyNO6mFAZZnP2p_eZmVu5GFK_t7e0306sA/edit?usp=sharing

2. You can pick and choose which cards you rate -- feel free to leave some cards blank if you don't want to rate them for whatever reason.

3. You may use whatever criteria you like for your ratings, but I have a guideline that can be used as an example or a template if you would like something to get you started -- the examples in parentheses are just my opinions, feel free to disagree!

0 - Adding the card would make most decks worse than adding nothing (Scout, Secret Chamber)
1 - The card almost never sees play in good decks, and when it does, its effect is marginal at best
3 - The card is not necessarily bad, but usually doesn't play a key role in any deck; still not worth picking up some of the time
5 - The card plays a minor supporting role in many decks, or has some synergies that make it good in a few situations
7 - The card plays a support role in most decks, plays a critical role in many decks, or can be the backbone of good or mediocre decks with proper support
9 - The card is almost never ignorable, and usually plays a large role in the best decks that can be built
10 - The card warps the strategic and/or tactical landscape, causing most games to revolve around it. Ignoring or misusing the card will almost always result in a clear loss (Donate, King's Court)

A final note: I will answer questions here if needed, but I would prefer to communicate via PM if possible.

[Simon Jester]

This was hard. Especially Projects. I feel that almost everyone are obviously strong in the way that you probaby always going to get one, but how impactful they will be is entirely depended on, well, the kingdom. They change the game, but more in a landmark kind of way than most Events.

Some more than others though. Can we call 10 capitalism-level already? 

 

[Ethan]

Done.
How many people voted for Nocturne last time?

[AdamH]

Done.
How many people voted for Nocturne last time?

41 people gave initial impressions, 22 submitted responses in the second round when I made another poll to see how things changed.

[AdamH]

Results

http://adamhorton.com/flog/dominion-renaissance-first-impressions/

[Aleimon Thimble]

Just posting to say that it's good to see you on the forums here

[Reykjavik]

I just bought research for the first time, and I am significantly underwhelmed.

Most duration cards are great for reliability, starting with extra stuff next turn is strong. Not so much research, if you have a strong enough engine to draw the deck and want some reliability, research can't do it. You set the cards aside when you play it, you don't draw extra at the start of next turn. All the cards that you set aside can't be played until next turn.

It isn't a bad trasher, it does fine on estates, and at least it isn't terminal for other junk, and doesn't miss reshuffles if you don't set aside cards. Once the junk is trashed though, it isn't so great.

I suppose it could be strong with storeroom, but that is a lot of work to get working, first I need two researches because duration, then I need a couple villages, and some other source of draw, and then at least one storeroom, preferably two (one to sift the junk I set aside every turn to ensure I don't have a dud turn, and one to turn the junk into coin after it is redrawn). Maybe it could be a little sleeker than that if the right enablers are on the board, but I think I'd rather have a couple silvers and golds.

[Beyond Awesome]

I think it's great, especially as an opener or decks that lack draw. Just kill a gold for 6 cards in your next hand.

[napking24]

I already shared this on the reddit thread and I'm gonna share here too. I've also added some new charts since yesterday.
https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/1jJC2C3MhJ2OBMRyq-EOP20zuR_2taSh3
Explanation of Violin Plots

Re:research

Most duration cards are great for reliability, starting with extra stuff next turn is strong.

Research is getting above average ratings, which I believe is due to the heuristic that 1 mega turn is better than 2 okay turns. It's a non-terminal trasher, that you can get in your opening shuffle. That alone should give it a good rating. The rest of the game-play will be determined by what else is in the kingdom, and skilled play. I feel like it's a high-skill card because blindly trashing good cards can easily backfire, as you say. Cards can miss shuffle, not enough +actions next turn, not enough +buys next turn.

I'm also surprised by Flag Bearer. It's got slightly below average rating, but has a huge variation in opinion though. Which I think stems from how people rate cards. Using Adam's criteria, I feel like it's a "support card in most decks" by itself (7) but "is almost never ignorable" (9). If you don't play with it, you're allowing your opponent a huge advantage for $4 and a card slot. I leaned on the low side at 7 because you don't want to be the first to buy it. That still makes it "above average". I'm very curious to play games with it to see how the fight over artifacts plays out.

[Awaclus]

Research is great. It helps you cycle your deck very fast, it gives you economy, it gives you trashing, so it's basically everything that you want to do in the early game in a single non-terminal card. Later on you can use it to trash cards for draw.

[Holunder9]

Research is great. It helps you cycle your deck very fast, it gives you economy, it gives you trashing, so it's basically everything that you want to do in the early game in a single non-terminal card. Later on you can use it to trash cards for draw.

Research doesn't give you economy, it is just a Duration Apprentice. The only really powerful trasher in this set is Recruiter.

[Simon Jester]

Research is great. It helps you cycle your deck very fast, it gives you economy, it gives you trashing, so it's basically everything that you want to do in the early game in a single non-terminal card. Later on you can use it to trash cards for draw.

Research doesn't give you economy, it is just a Duration Apprentice. The only really powerful trasher in this set is Recruiter.

Recruiter is quite situational though, if you end up in a kingdom with lots of village support you rather have a salvager. Or a research.

Granted, when Recruiter is good I'm sure it's bonkers, I just haven't really seen it myself yet.

[Holunder9]

I disagree; Villagers are always moderately useful as they guarantee perfect engine consistency. Also, gaining them en masse via Recruiter is a partial substitute for gaining villages which means that you can gain some other stuff early in the game.

Whenever you manage to trash an Estate with Recruiter, which happens with an extremely high likelihood early on, the card is better than a Lost City that trashes, i.e. better than:

+2 Cards
+2 Actions
Trash a card from your hand.

This is totally bonkers. The only reason this overpowered card is still playable is that it doesn't take the fun out of games like Cultist or Rebuild do.

Also note that the card is at worst a Masquerade (without the passing), one of the strongest $3 trashers.

[Simon Jester]

I disagree; Villagers are always moderately useful as they guarantee perfect engine consistency. Also, gaining them en masse via Recruiter is a partial substitute for gaining villages which means that you can gain some other stuff early in the game.

Whenever you manage to trash an Estate with Recruiter, which happens with an extremely high likelihood early on, the card is better than a Lost City that trashes, i.e. better than:

+2 Cards
+2 Actions
Trash a card from your hand.

This is totally bonkers. The only reason this overpowered card is still playable is that it doesn't take the fun out of games like Cultist or Rebuild do.

Also note that the card is at worst a Masquerade (without the passing), one of the strongest $3 trashers.

Yes, but the drawback is that it cost 5 and if you cant open with it it's value diminish, e.g it will be harder to trash estates. Costing 4 or below for a trasher is quite important and it's rather because of that 5 trashers are allowed to be really strong. A Recruiter opening is elite in virtually any kingdom, I admit, but so is Sentry, Junk Dealer and Count. If there is villages in the kingdom and your opponent manages to open Recruiter you aren't done. Even less with a cheap trasher in the kingdom.

And, oh, don't forget about Projects. With Sewers and Cathedral, Recruiter is hardly the only strong trasher in Renaissance.
 

[Awaclus]

Research is great. It helps you cycle your deck very fast, it gives you economy, it gives you trashing, so it's basically everything that you want to do in the early game in a single non-terminal card. Later on you can use it to trash cards for draw.

Research doesn't give you economy, it is just a Duration Apprentice. The only really powerful trasher in this set is Recruiter.

Apprentice gives you economy, therefore Research gives you economy. It's ridiculous to say that the only powerful trasher in the set is Recruiter when the set also has the significantly-more-powerful-than-Recruiter Cathedral, and Priest and Research are definitely very powerful as well.

[Beyond Awesome]

And, Sewers. That's strong as well.

[GendoIkari]

Research is great. It helps you cycle your deck very fast, it gives you economy, it gives you trashing, so it's basically everything that you want to do in the early game in a single non-terminal card. Later on you can use it to trash cards for draw.

Research doesn't give you economy, it is just a Duration Apprentice. The only really powerful trasher in this set is Recruiter.

Apprentice gives you economy, therefore Research gives you economy. It's ridiculous to say that the only powerful trasher in the set is Recruiter when the set also has the significantly-more-powerful-than-Recruiter Cathedral, and Priest and Research are definitely very powerful as well.

How does Apprentice give you economy? I thought economy referred to the ability to add new cards to your deck, generally through generating money, but possibly gainers as well? If simply card draw counts as economy, then almost every card in Dominion gives you economy in some way.

[Awaclus]

How does Apprentice give you economy? I thought economy referred to the ability to add new cards to your deck, generally through generating money, but possibly gainers as well? If simply card draw counts as economy, then almost every card in Dominion gives you economy in some way.

Card draw counts as economy, through generating money through putting Coppers into your hand.

[Holunder9]

And, oh, don't forget about Projects. With Sewers and Cathedral, Recruiter is hardly the only strong trasher in Renaissance.

Arguably true. But none of these cards draw which is the main reason for Recruiter being overpowered. A Necropolis that trashes isn't particularly impressive, a Lost City that does is. And while it is sometimes "just" as Masquerade, when you trash a Coppers or Curse, it is also sometimes more than a Lost City that trashes: Flag Bearer, Fortress, a superfluous Silver, Silk Merchant and so on.

How does Apprentice give you economy? I thought economy referred to the ability to add new cards to your deck, generally through generating money, but possibly gainers as well? If simply card draw counts as economy, then almost every card in Dominion gives you economy in some way.

Card draw counts as economy, through generating money through putting Coppers into your hand.

This is false. If you overdraw your deck adding more draw power doesn't increase Coin (or Coffers) yield.

While you are of course totally right that drawing cards make it more likely that you draw payload cards it is simply a bad way to think about the game because there is often an elementary trade-off about adding draw or payload power to a deck. Pretending that the former implies the latter is not helpful at all for deck construction and I seriously doubt that you actually think according to your "Cards=Coins" claim during playing. If the game were so simple it would be solved.

[Simon Jester]

And, oh, don't forget about Projects. With Sewers and Cathedral, Recruiter is hardly the only strong trasher in Renaissance.

Arguably true. But none of these cards draw which is the main reason for Recruiter being overpowered. A Necropolis that trashes isn't particularly impressive, a Lost City that does is. And while it is sometimes "just" as Masquerade, when you trash a Coppers or Curse, it is also sometimes more than a Lost City that trashes: Flag Bearer, Fortress, a superfluous Silver, Silk Merchant and so on.

Hm. I'm still not convinced that it is THAT good. Lost City can be overvalued, you really can't just buy recruiters and cruise for victory, can you? You still need something good to draw and then again can the trashing requirement become a problem rather than an asset. If I need to trash economy as in silver I rather want cash or draw than villagers in many situations.

Look, I think I'm going from a medium player perspective and it's then dangerous to see a card as OP-omgomg because it can so easy be turned into a trap and the games I have had with Recruiter that has kind of being the case. Assuming that you know what you're doing A-play level it's of course really good, but then you are capable to avoid it's traps. I don't see it being overpowered, just really good when it should be really good, because sometimes it's as you say a masquerade for 5, or a card that turns your economy into village idiotism and well, that's a pretty crucial drawback.

[Holunder9]

I don't have a lot of experience with the card but whenever it was in the Kingdom getting 1 or 2 led to a win. Trashing Silvers is not something you do very often with Recruiter. But note that in general you very often like to get rid of 1 or 2 Silvers that you needed for buildup and Recruiter is one of the sweetest cards to use for achieving that goal.

[faust]

I find the power of Recruiter is not so much that it can be a Lost City but rather that you can smooth out. When trashing your starting cards, it can be a Lab 6/10 times, and the other times you probably didn't draw any actions anyway.

[Awaclus]

This is false. If you overdraw your deck adding more draw power doesn't increase Coin (or Coffers) yield.

While you are of course totally right that drawing cards make it more likely that you draw payload cards it is simply a bad way to think about the game because there is often an elementary trade-off about adding draw or payload power to a deck. Pretending that the former implies the latter is not helpful at all for deck construction and I seriously doubt that you actually think according to your "Cards=Coins" claim during playing. If the game were so simple it would be solved.

If you "overdraw" your deck, the real problem is that you have overtrashed your deck.

[Aleimon Thimble]

This is false. If you overdraw your deck adding more draw power doesn't increase Coin (or Coffers) yield.

While you are of course totally right that drawing cards make it more likely that you draw payload cards it is simply a bad way to think about the game because there is often an elementary trade-off about adding draw or payload power to a deck. Pretending that the former implies the latter is not helpful at all for deck construction and I seriously doubt that you actually think according to your "Cards=Coins" claim during playing. If the game were so simple it would be solved.

If you "overdraw" your deck, the real problem is that you have overtrashed your deck.

Well, sometimes overdraw is good, for example with mid-turn gaining or discard for benefit.

[faust]

This is false. If you overdraw your deck adding more draw power doesn't increase Coin (or Coffers) yield.

While you are of course totally right that drawing cards make it more likely that you draw payload cards it is simply a bad way to think about the game because there is often an elementary trade-off about adding draw or payload power to a deck. Pretending that the former implies the latter is not helpful at all for deck construction and I seriously doubt that you actually think according to your "Cards=Coins" claim during playing. If the game were so simple it would be solved.

If you "overdraw" your deck, the real problem is that you have overtrashed your deck.

Well, sometimes overdraw is good, for example with mid-turn gaining or discard for benefit.

Somehow you've come full circle and now try to use the original argument Awaclus was making against him. I suggest always checking the context of a discussion to avoid chiming in with a completely beside-the-point comment.

[Aleimon Thimble]

This is false. If you overdraw your deck adding more draw power doesn't increase Coin (or Coffers) yield.

While you are of course totally right that drawing cards make it more likely that you draw payload cards it is simply a bad way to think about the game because there is often an elementary trade-off about adding draw or payload power to a deck. Pretending that the former implies the latter is not helpful at all for deck construction and I seriously doubt that you actually think according to your "Cards=Coins" claim during playing. If the game were so simple it would be solved.

If you "overdraw" your deck, the real problem is that you have overtrashed your deck.

Well, sometimes overdraw is good, for example with mid-turn gaining or discard for benefit.

Somehow you've come full circle and now try to use the original argument Awaclus was making against him. I suggest always checking the context of a discussion to avoid chiming in with a completely beside-the-point comment.

Awaclus never said that in this topic. Maybe one of his other posts implied it somehow, but I'm not seeing that right now. Either way, surely he doesn't need you to defend him so furiously? You sound like an overzealous groupie.

[Awaclus]

Awaclus never said that in this topic. Maybe one of his other posts implied it somehow, but I'm not seeing that right now. Either way, surely he doesn't need you to defend him so furiously? You sound like an overzealous groupie.

I said that draw is economy, because it puts cards into your hand which generate coins. Holunder9 said that was false, because what if you're overdrawing your deck. I said that if you're overdrawing your deck, the problem isn't that you're drawing too many cards, it's that you trashed too many cards. You said that sometimes overdraw is good if it puts cards into your hand which generate coins. You seriously don't think anything is funny here?

[Jimmmy]

I already shared this on the reddit thread and I'm gonna share here too. I've also added some new charts since yesterday.
https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/1jJC2C3MhJ2OBMRyq-EOP20zuR_2taSh3
Explanation of Violin Plots

Re:research

Most duration cards are great for reliability, starting with extra stuff next turn is strong.

Research is getting above average ratings, which I believe is due to the heuristic that 1 mega turn is better than 2 okay turns. It's a non-terminal trasher, that you can get in your opening shuffle. That alone should give it a good rating. The rest of the game-play will be determined by what else is in the kingdom, and skilled play. I feel like it's a high-skill card because blindly trashing good cards can easily backfire, as you say. Cards can miss shuffle, not enough +actions next turn, not enough +buys next turn.

I'm also surprised by Flag Bearer. It's got slightly below average rating, but has a huge variation in opinion though. Which I think stems from how people rate cards. Using Adam's criteria, I feel like it's a "support card in most decks" by itself (7) but "is almost never ignorable" (9). If you don't play with it, you're allowing your opponent a huge advantage for $4 and a card slot. I leaned on the low side at 7 because you don't want to be the first to buy it. That still makes it "above average". I'm very curious to play games with it to see how the fight over artifacts plays out.

First I was also surprised by Flag Bearer. I mean it's a card that you have to buy if your opponent has the flag, cannot ignore it. But as you said you never want to be the first to buy it. The second player who gets it almost always get more value from it. That way optimally nobody should buy it on most boards.
The only cases I can think of when it's reasonable to buy it is:
1. You think your opponent misplays and doesn't contest the flag
2. You are ahead and can afford the money, buys, trashes to contest the flag, much more than your opponent

So I think it's going to end up as a win more card, and I would not rate it high anymore.

[Awaclus]

At least in Renaissance heavy games (which have lots of great trashing), the first Flag has seemed pretty good in the absence of more important things to do. The first extra card draw that you get from the Flag is ALSO PROMPT, which means that you can sometimes break the symmetry in your favor by timing the Flag buy correctly — e.g. you can buy it when you know your opponent has small or nonexistent chances of hitting $4 in their current hand, or you can buy it when your extra card does something more useful than your opponent's extra card assuming they buy it on their next turn.

[GendoIkari]

How does Apprentice give you economy? I thought economy referred to the ability to add new cards to your deck, generally through generating money, but possibly gainers as well? If simply card draw counts as economy, then almost every card in Dominion gives you economy in some way.

Card draw counts as economy, through generating money through putting Coppers into your hand.

If this is what people mean when they say that a card provides economy; then it’s a pretty meaningless term that applies to just about every card in Dominion.

[Aleimon Thimble]

I said that draw is economy, because it puts cards into your hand which generate coins. Holunder9 said that was false, because what if you're overdrawing your deck. I said that if you're overdrawing your deck, the problem isn't that you're drawing too many cards, it's that you trashed too many cards. You said that sometimes overdraw is good if it puts cards into your hand which generate coins. You seriously don't think anything is funny here?

I really don't, and you're attributing something to my name which I never said. Other than the fact that the notion that 'draw is economy' is a misleading statement, you didn't mention mid-turn gaining or discard for benefit and I had no reason to assume that's what you meant. But even if I did, my post replied to a different post of yours, where you said that overdraw is a sign that you overtrashed, which is also a misleading statement.

[Holunder9]

I gotta admit, I kinda like Awaclus's Unified Theory of Dominion:
"Everything is economy!"
It is short, it is simple, it is involuntarily funny and it is utterly wrong.

[GendoIkari]

I gotta admit, I kinda like Awaclus's Unified Theory of Dominion:
"Everything is economy!"
It is short, it is simple, it is involuntarily funny and it is utterly wrong.

Rogue is a Village.

[Awaclus]

If this is what people mean when they say that a card provides economy; then it’s a pretty meaningless term that applies to just about every card in Dominion.

It doesn't apply to Chapel or Village. It's not a meaningless term, this is exactly the meaning that you need to consider when you're trying to maximize your chances of hitting $5 in the early game.

I really don't, and you're attributing something to my name which I never said. Other than the fact that the notion that 'draw is economy' is a misleading statement, you didn't mention mid-turn gaining or discard for benefit and I had no reason to assume that's what you meant. But even if I did, my post replied to a different post of yours, where you said that overdraw is a sign that you overtrashed, which is also a misleading statement.

"Draw is economy" is not a misleading statement, it is a true statement. Of course I didn't mean mid-turn gaining or discard for benefit because that's never relevant on turn 3 or turn 5, but nevertheless the reason why overdraw is sometimes good in the late game is the exact same reason why draw is economy in the early game.

"Overdraw is a sign that you overtrashed" is also not a misleading statement, it is a true statement. If you play a Smithy on turn 6 and it doesn't draw three cards, that means you trashed too much too fast.

I gotta admit, I kinda like Awaclus's Unified Theory of Dominion:
"Everything is economy!"
It is short, it is simple, it is involuntarily funny and it is utterly wrong.

No, only the things that help you hit $5 are economy.

[GendoIkari]

Playing a Smithy allows you to have more Coppers in hand, so Smithy is economy. Playing a Village allows you to play more Smithies; thus allowing you to have more Coppers in hand.

Playing Chapel is economy like Royal Carriage is; it increases the number of coin you have on future turns.

[Awaclus]

Playing a Smithy allows you to have more Coppers in hand, so Smithy is economy. Playing a Village allows you to play more Smithies; thus allowing you to have more Coppers in hand.

Playing Chapel is economy like Royal Carriage is; it increases the number of coin you have on future turns.

How many times have you opened Village/Chapel and hit $5?

[GendoIkari]

Playing a Smithy allows you to have more Coppers in hand, so Smithy is economy. Playing a Village allows you to play more Smithies; thus allowing you to have more Coppers in hand.

Playing Chapel is economy like Royal Carriage is; it increases the number of coin you have on future turns.

How many times have you opened Village/Chapel and hit $5?

If you only use Chapel to trash Estates, then you’ll hit $5 plenty. Anyway, you can use whatever term you feel like, but it sounds like I’m not alone in assuming that “economy” actually has to do with how much stuff your deck can afford, rather than how likely it is to hit a particular number that happens to be a number that has a lot of strong cards with that cost.

[Awaclus]

If you only use Chapel to trash Estates, then you’ll hit $5 plenty. Anyway, you can use whatever term you feel like, but it sounds like I’m not alone in assuming that “economy” actually has to do with how much stuff your deck can afford, rather than how likely it is to hit a particular number that happens to be a number that has a lot of strong cards with that cost.

You don't get the benefit of Estate trashing from Chapel until after a few reshuffles, and due to inflation, just buying Treasure would probably be better economy. Trashing an Estate before the first reshuffle with Cathedral or Plan, however, is extremely good for economy.

How much stuff your deck can afford is more in the payload territory, and irrelevant until you're actually drawing your entire deck.