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[EFHW]

One big difference between them was PPS wants to lynch me and e did not. Convoluted.

Is this a decision by a solitary scum or a joint decision? I'm thinking solitary.

[EFHW]

Does a scum on guillotine get to talk to their partner(s) overnight?

[EFHW]

PPS did moderate his views by eod.

VCA is exonerating too many people.  I think we need to look for bussing.

[Swowl]

Happy Turkey day everyone!
Maybe skum forgot to submit a kill? Set up says they must kill each night so random selection of no kill is submitted.

Gotta be honest, kind of relief for me as during the night i was getting a little paranoid about E!

But more on that later - cooking for like a dozen people today so once I’m sat down I’ll get to some other stuff.

[LaLight]

Flavor later

2.71828..... was killed. They was Mafia Goon, a Vanilla Townie


Day 4 starts now!

Vote count 4.0

Not voting (10): pingpongsam, Dylan32, DatSwan, Joseph2302, infangthief, Awaclus, WestCoastDidds, EFHW, mcmcsalot, hypercube

infangthief is on the guillotine.
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 4 ends Thursday, 29th of November, at 12pm

Thread unlocked!

LaLight, is that right? Is Hypercube back in the game?

No, sorry

[LaLight]

Does a scum on guillotine get to talk to their partner(s) overnight?

Yes.

[Swowl]

So, actually thinking more on what was my paranoid E! theory... I mean I still really don't get the PPS kill over E!... but when I was thinking it up I was thinking that we had knowledge of Robz being IC when we went to night 1 (not the case it was flipped the next day).

So if the skum RB chose to not shoot it would be with the upside that the town tracker targeted them (1/12 at that point) vs the downside of not targeting the IC, the tracker, or the vig (3/10 at that point)... which just really doesn't make any sense.

Whatever... point is I assume they would of figured that one of us would bring this up eventually. Weird thing is that even then, its like there still could of been that small little paranoia case to make on E!... whereas they have essentially just given us another day with an IC today.

I guess I just don't get it.  The only thing I can think of is they were doing it to create WIFOM, so unless someone else has a theory - I am just gonna ignore it for now.

[Swowl]

Kay actually I think I may have it - someone smarter is gonna have to help me, but I think I am on to something.

This is a quote from the link that is supplied in the set up of this game, taken from the Skum Role PM Template:
"You win when there are as many or more living Mafia as there are living non-Mafia or if nothing can prevent the same. (Someone on guillotine is still alive.)"
This is a quote from the Town Role PM Template:
"You win when two scum are dead and the third is on-guillotine."

So, if we find the second Skum.. we do not have to wait for the flip on the third. The lynch choice will either IC that person, or end the game... no delay in information at that point. This obviously is like the worst case scenario for Skum.

The money day is Day 6:
1) Fang is Town, and we mislynch today and tomorrow = the game ends in Skum victory.
2) Fang is Skum, and we mislynch today and tomorrow = we start Day 6 with an IC on the block. 5 players alive - 1 IC, 3 Town, 1 Skum
3) Fand is Town, and we find Skum today = Same as "2)"
4) Fang is Skum, and we find skum today or tomorrow = Town victory.

and then there is...

5) Fang is Town, and we mislynch today, but find skum tomorrow = This is actually (aside from Skum loss), the worst case scenario. It would put a skum on the block (with 2 skum alive), and we would no without a doubt that the player on the block was skum. At that point it is all gravy for us on Day 6. We could still even mislynch Day 6 and have them kill and still start a Day 7 at 2 Town - 1 Skum (because the player on the block is alive, but also if it is skum on the block, that is 1 IC - 1 Town - 1 Skum).

Skum would of thought this far ahead - I can almost GTD it. So, their thought would be either:
1) Fang is skum, they know they are 1 left after today, and they are gonna have to survive that Day 7 with 1 IC - 1 Town -1 Skum
2) Fang is town, they know they have 2 left after today and their options are to either
- Win outright start of Day 6
- Suffer the lynch today and to to the same Day 6 as in situation 1
- Suffer the lynch tomorrow and be in a really shitty spot. I mean if I was the on the block skum in this scenario on Day 6 I would literally just post something every 24 hours and never vote so town couldn't use the info. It seems beneficial when you think "they have 2 votes as opposed to 1", but if they start throwing that vote around and then are UNWILLING to vote for someone.. that is like.. game over when we are talking about 4 total possible picks.


Whatever, all in all that is a ton of speculation. What it does lead me to is that skum choosing to mess with us by killing E! instead of PPS probably suggests it isn't them trying to mess with us at all. They just feel confident. So, either Fang is skum and they are one left and creating chaos because they know on Day 7 start they will have killed E!, PPS, and anyone else that has managed to IC themselves from future acts. Or Fang is Town, and they feel confident enough to sit back and create a bunch of nonsense without them feeling at risk of being targeted.

I am pulling a page from the WCD book, while adding a bit of my own, and I do understand that this will put me under scrutiny... but the point stands.
If the skum team is Hypercube!Fang... then assuredly to choose E! here, there must be a clever skum in the mix.
If the skum team is Hypercube!NOTFang... then still there must be a clever skum in the mix.

As we do not know Fang's alignment - I think we should focus on the middle ground - Players that seem removed from Fang and Hypercube. I am reading to find that list now, but yeah. Sorry for the long post.

[pingpongsam]

All I got from the Datswan post is that he looks towny talking circles around himself. I mean, I read it and understood it but damn, that is stream of consciousness right there.

If there is any question I was the vig I want to see the counterclaim right now.

[Swowl]

All I got from the Datswan post is that he looks towny talking circles around himself. I mean, I read it and understood it but damn, that is stream of consciousness right there.

If there is any question I was the vig I want to see the counterclaim right now.

Sorry, i do that quite a bit sometimes. I need to organize thoughts better before posting.

Nutshell - since we get to choose a lynch tomorrow knowing Fang’s alignment i think we should look closely at people disconnected from fang. Looking at potential partners, targets, or genuine reads will be far more beneficial tomorrow - so let’s focus away from fang today to cover more ground.

[Joseph2302]

Kay actually I think I may have it - someone smarter is gonna have to help me, but I think I am on to something.

This is a quote from the link that is supplied in the set up of this game, taken from the Skum Role PM Template:
"You win when there are as many or more living Mafia as there are living non-Mafia or if nothing can prevent the same. (Someone on guillotine is still alive.)"
This is a quote from the Town Role PM Template:
"You win when two scum are dead and the third is on-guillotine."

So, if we find the second Skum.. we do not have to wait for the flip on the third. The lynch choice will either IC that person, or end the game... no delay in information at that point. This obviously is like the worst case scenario for Skum.

This has already been said at least once before, as I mentioned it as setup talk D1

[WestCoastDidds]

Sorry, i do that quite a bit sometimes. I need to organize thoughts better before posting.

Nutshell - since we get to choose a lynch tomorrow knowing Fang’s alignment i think we should look closely at people disconnected from fang. Looking at potential partners, targets, or genuine reads will be far more beneficial tomorrow - so let’s focus away from fang today to cover more ground.

Hey, me too! Although the circles help me see the way through eventually. One thing I decided after reading the long post is that Swan is town. And that killing e was strange because there was some dohbt about him. And PPS is town. And that scum are playing well.

Mcmc, Dylan, and maybe Awa need another good look.

[pingpongsam]

The WIFOM seems to be killing PPS somewhat confirms his reads. Killing e suggests that maybe PPS is doing a great job for scum so leave him alive and kill the questionable character so that all that really remains are the strong reads. So, either PPS is either so bad wrong about say, EFHW/Dylan that he will just finish the game for say, Joseph/WCD OR he’s spot on but the misdirection is supposed to cause second guessing.

I’m inclined to lean into the middle. Like, EFHW/WCD or something with a strong preference for vetting out an initial read.

[infangthief]

Much as I love using the word WIFOM, I don't like actually thinking through such things. I can't remember what I'm supposed to hold on to and what I'm supposed to reconsider until I basically have to start again from scratch. Or disappear in a puff of logic.

Is there another more straightforward approach, which doesn't depend on WIFOM? Like e had twice started wagons on Dylan, only to later say 'oh now I remember why I think he's town after all'. So maybe Dylan is town and scum just wanted to prevent e from getting a chance to explain why.

[EFHW]

Ok, on rereading the two of them, I think Joseph and chairs/Hypercube were partners who bussed each other a lot. They vote each other a lot. Neither of them seems very inspired, though they do it frequently. Then they are allied against me, DatSwan and Space. Both dither about voting the other one near deadline, but they both do it. Sorry about the wall of words. vote: Joseph

130 Jos V. chairs “Seems like you're setting faust up to get guillotined D2”
230 Jos: “Not super convinced that chairs is scum. But it is the best option I can see right now”
235 Jos: "It's an option. Currently the most preferred option"
275 hyper: v. Joseph “for mostly just doing setup talk and avoiding other interaction.”
334 hyper: “The case against chairs doesn't really make sense: if he was scum why would he bother trying to get faust mislynched? There aren't any protective roles so if faust is town scum can just nightkill him. I assume chairs was just being paranoid about the possibility of scum!faust.”
343 Jospeh: quotes above, v. Hyper
350 Jos: “And I forgot that hypercube = chairs, definitely happy with my vote there then”
381 hyper: "I think I like the Joseph wagon more than the Robz wagon”
382 hyper: "Forgot to v. Joseph"
406 Jos: v. Robz Currently the 3 biggest wagons are me, Robz and EFHW. I'm scum (as in on team Green, because scum in this game = town in other games), and of the other two, I think EFHW is more towny
407 hyper: I'm just checking in; I'm happy with where my vote is right now [on Joseph]. I'll be around for an hour or so before the deadline.
450 hyper: I'm here. ... I'm going to do a quick reread of Space.
462 hyper: Space seems a little erratic to me, moving votes and their opinion around a lot. ... I think I like voting for them more than voting for Robz, but less than voting for Joseph.
465 hyper: “Ok let's see if we can get more of a consensus on Space v.Space”
485 hyper: “I'm obviously willing to go back to Joseph but it doesn't seem like anything is changing unless multiple people leave the Robz wagon.”
490 hyper: on prodding from faust: “True. v. Joseph”
DAY 2
497 hyper: “ Robz being IC makes it pretty obvious how bad that wagon was. EFHW had some crucial votes to keep it going: vote: EFHW”
502 Jos: “at least one scum in {e, PPS, Joseph, WCD, Space, ingathief}
520 hyper: “At this point I think Space is town. I somewhat regret moving my vote to them yesterday, I think staying on Joseph and trying to convince people to move there could have been better.”
521 Jos: “Hypercube and Space scum team perhaps?”
522 Jos:” v. Space Seems good to me for now”
554 hyper: “Specifically the idea that there's no way of knowing whether Joseph is town or not. The obvious way to find out is to lynch Joseph, which at this point seems like it could give us a good deal of information. That, combined with this: Quote from: Joseph2302 'I can claim now, if people would like?' leads me to v. Joseph."
572 hyper: “Is all this certainty that Joseph is town based on his meta or something? I don't really get it.
577 hyper:  “he's too scummy to be scum? I don't really like this but I'm willing to defer to the IC for now. ... I think I'll go back to v. EFHW.”
611 Jos: Of the 4 mentioned by DatSwan {me, Robz, Space, EFHW}, my thoughts are this:... EFHW- the wagon on EFHW dissipated quickly, and that could be a scummy sign. ... Space- still think scummy
612 Jos: “Actually since I don't see how the 3 D1 wagons of me, Robz & EFHW can be 3 town wagons, I'm better off with v. EFHW Having 3 wagons on D1 and them all being town people is unlikely”
613 hyper: re: DatSwan post “This is an interestingly subtle defense of EFHW: you assign her a much more towny motivation for moving her vote than the actual reason she gave”
615 jos: “I agree DatSwan's defences could be indicative of a DatSwan/EFHW scum team”
657 hyper: v. DatSwan
663 hyper: makes case on datswan relative to EFHW
668 hyper: “I'm still willing to vote for EFHW. I'll be generally around this weekend and should be available for the deadline.”
721 hyper: “That's a really lazy attempt to build a case from someone who keeps imploring people to try harder. WCD even has to contort herself into discounting her expressed scumread of EFHW to make it work. v. WCD”
740 Jos: “I'll be on and off around until deadline. Of the choices WCD or hypercube, my preferred option is someone else.”
741 Jos:  “I guess v. WCD is the better of the two options”
745 Jos: “Actually, let's sheep the IC. v. hypercube”

[pingpongsam]

efoo has a pretty good point. Reading them separately and with context makes Joseph loom pretty towny.  It that, there is a lot of interaction between those two. Interaction that involves voting. That said, Joseph has been a polarizing player this whole game. Nobody has much been on the fence about him. Hypercube on the other hand was relatively null up until his end. Does Joseph lead I to the bus like that, as opposed to being closer to the tail end?

Quite possibly.

[pingpongsam]

Autocorrect massacred that paragraph.

[Dylan32]

Just checking in before I go to bed. Had more stuff going on today post-Thanksgiving than I would have expected, so hopefully I'll have time to catch up tomorrow evening.

[WestCoastDidds]

Good morning, friends. As is perhaps to be expected mandatory Festiveness and Fun is sucking up way more time than I had anticipated, but that should be coming to an end (rather abruptly since that is when the big ass pile of grading will start demanding attention) and I can catch up tomorrow.

In the cheesy but genuine spirit of the holiday, I am thankful for all of you for making this game, and the others like it, an enjoyable endeavor. I’ve enjoyed the past few months of this community quite a bit, albeit a “this is frustrating but I’m also learning how to think in a new way” kind of enjoyment.

[Joseph2302]

efoo has a pretty good point. Reading them separately and with context makes Joseph loom pretty towny.  It that, there is a lot of interaction between those two. Interaction that involves voting. That said, Joseph has been a polarizing player this whole game. Nobody has much been on the fence about him. Hypercube on the other hand was relatively null up until his end. Does Joseph lead I to the bus like that, as opposed to being closer to the tail end?

Quite possibly.

Joseph is always a polarising player. Usually everyone just thinks I'm scum.

[Joseph2302]

As for WCD/hypercube at the end of the day, I didn't think either of them were good lynch options

[mcmcsalot]

I’ll be back soon at a housewarming party for the night. Might drunk post later I’ll find out in the morning.

[Swowl]

efoo has a pretty good point. Reading them separately and with context makes Joseph loom pretty towny.  It that, there is a lot of interaction between those two. Interaction that involves voting. That said, Joseph has been a polarizing player this whole game. Nobody has much been on the fence about him. Hypercube on the other hand was relatively null up until his end. Does Joseph lead I to the bus like that, as opposed to being closer to the tail end?

Quite possibly.

Joseph is always a polarising player. Usually everyone just thinks I'm scum.

its weird when you third-person to first-person yourself in the same post

[Swowl]

Ok, on rereading the two of them, I think Joseph and chairs/Hypercube were partners who bussed each other a lot. They vote each other a lot. Neither of them seems very inspired, though they do it frequently. Then they are allied against me, DatSwan and Space. Both dither about voting the other one near deadline, but they both do it. Sorry about the wall of words. vote: Joseph

Snipped for convenience.

Alright, so this is not to say I think this post is skummy... I mean I still think EFHW is skummy, but this seems like solid work. I do however, have a few "differences in opinion" regarding some of the interactions:

Day 1:

1) Everything from #130-#343 I am kind of in disagreement with I guess. All these post quotes are pointing out A LOT of interaction between Joseph and Chairs/Hyper, with the votes to follow them up. That is pretty damn hard bussing on Day 1 in this delayed flip set up. Like to the extent that I do not know if it is probable, or even remotely likely, especially with Hypercube being a newer player.

2) However, #350 (after Joseph votes Hypercube, they claim to of forgotten that Chairs = Hypercube)... that could be either way. I feel the need to read it as towny, but I mean from a skum!Joseph PoV... this would be a great way to gain easy town points. Still, I am on the fence about it.

3) #382 is where Hypercube leaves WCD (4) to put Joseph at (2), while Robz is at (2), and EFHW is at (3). That just again... seems wayyyy overly bussy (especially on day 1). Also, when they move their vote they make it read the below... which is just sooooo strange again as Skum!Hypercube could of gone either EFHW or Robz at this point. I get we are looking into bussing, but this is getting a little absurd at this point... like this is not just "nonchalant" bussing... this is "I am willing to legit have my partner lynched day 1" bussing... when there was at least one KNOWN other town option.
Joseph2302 (4): SpaceAnemone, infangthief, faust, hypercube
EFHW (3): Dylan32, mcmcsalot, WestCoastDidds
hypercube (1): Joseph2302
Dylan32 (1): Robz888
Awaclus (1): DatSwan
Robz888 (3): 2.71828....., pingpongsam, EFHW
mcmcsalot (1): Awaclus

4) #465 is Hyper moving off of Joseph and trying to rally a Space lynch. The vote count at the time read:
Joseph2302 (3): infangthief, hypercube, EFHW
Robz888 (5): 2.71828....., pingpongsam, Joseph2302, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone
--- So on one hand, why would Hypercube either not vote Robz (credit I guess), or at the least... not do anything? I will give you this stand alone point is weird as hell. As town here, why would you try to create a random 3rd wagon so close to DL. As skum, if Joseph is also skum, it protects against a move (keeping in mind that 3/5 on Robz were town, 1/5 is unknown to us, and the other 1/5 was Joseph... so if it was in fact 4/5 town on Joseph I guess this could be skum trying to prevent a tie from happening). If that is the case.... I strongly suspect Fang or EFHW are skum... but then we are back to over-bussing where all of the skum team was voting for their mate at one point on day 1, which is... unlikely.

5) #485 - If the move off Joseph to Space was in fact Skum!Hyper playing D... why in the world would you say this?

6) #490 - When Hyper moves back to Joseph at this point there is 90 seconds left to DL reading Robz(6) vs Joseph(2). This would be the only acceptable example of bussing thus far that I actually like can bring myself to believe.

That ends Day 1. At this point I am not feeling the Joseph!Hyper team.

Day 2:

1) #554/#577 - This is Hyper voting for Joseph and then moving to EFHW.

2) #612/#657 - This is Joseph voting for EFHW and then Hyper moving to Swan. My take away from points 1 and 2 here, while not the point of this response, would be more of "the team would seem to be Hyper!EFHW rather than Hyper!Joseph (speaking from my PoV).

3) #740/#745 - The first gives Joseph an out to vote anyone, or EFHW, or Hyper... and the second is essentially sealing Hypercube's fate. Considering they could of voted for WCD tying the wagons at 5-5 instead of voting for Joseph and making them 6-4.

That is the end of Day 2.

All in all - I think that EFHW put together a solid interactions post, but I just do not agree with it. I am not saying it is not plausable, and this is prior to me finishing my full Joseph read... but for this to make sense they would of had to have the mind set of actually risking the lynch of a skum player based on the other skum player's push... all the way back from  Day 1. I just don't find that super likely.

[pingpongsam]

Ok, on rereading the two of them, I think Joseph and chairs/Hypercube were partners who bussed each other a lot. They vote each other a lot. Neither of them seems very inspired, though they do it frequently. Then they are allied against me, DatSwan and Space. Both dither about voting the other one near deadline, but they both do it. Sorry about the wall of words. vote: Joseph

Snipped for convenience.

Alright, so this is not to say I think this post is skummy... I mean I still think EFHW is skummy, but this seems like solid work. I do however, have a few "differences in opinion" regarding some of the interactions:

Day 1:

1) Everything from #130-#343 I am kind of in disagreement with I guess. All these post quotes are pointing out A LOT of interaction between Joseph and Chairs/Hyper, with the votes to follow them up. That is pretty damn hard bussing on Day 1 in this delayed flip set up. Like to the extent that I do not know if it is probable, or even remotely likely, especially with Hypercube being a newer player.

2) However, #350 (after Joseph votes Hypercube, they claim to of forgotten that Chairs = Hypercube)... that could be either way. I feel the need to read it as towny, but I mean from a skum!Joseph PoV... this would be a great way to gain easy town points. Still, I am on the fence about it.

3) #382 is where Hypercube leaves WCD (4) to put Joseph at (2), while Robz is at (2), and EFHW is at (3). That just again... seems wayyyy overly bussy (especially on day 1). Also, when they move their vote they make it read the below... which is just sooooo strange again as Skum!Hypercube could of gone either EFHW or Robz at this point. I get we are looking into bussing, but this is getting a little absurd at this point... like this is not just "nonchalant" bussing... this is "I am willing to legit have my partner lynched day 1" bussing... when there was at least one KNOWN other town option.
Joseph2302 (4): SpaceAnemone, infangthief, faust, hypercube
EFHW (3): Dylan32, mcmcsalot, WestCoastDidds
hypercube (1): Joseph2302
Dylan32 (1): Robz888
Awaclus (1): DatSwan
Robz888 (3): 2.71828....., pingpongsam, EFHW
mcmcsalot (1): Awaclus

4) #465 is Hyper moving off of Joseph and trying to rally a Space lynch. The vote count at the time read:
Joseph2302 (3): infangthief, hypercube, EFHW
Robz888 (5): 2.71828....., pingpongsam, Joseph2302, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone
--- So on one hand, why would Hypercube either not vote Robz (credit I guess), or at the least... not do anything? I will give you this stand alone point is weird as hell. As town here, why would you try to create a random 3rd wagon so close to DL. As skum, if Joseph is also skum, it protects against a move (keeping in mind that 3/5 on Robz were town, 1/5 is unknown to us, and the other 1/5 was Joseph... so if it was in fact 4/5 town on Joseph I guess this could be skum trying to prevent a tie from happening). If that is the case.... I strongly suspect Fang or EFHW are skum... but then we are back to over-bussing where all of the skum team was voting for their mate at one point on day 1, which is... unlikely.

5) #485 - If the move off Joseph to Space was in fact Skum!Hyper playing D... why in the world would you say this?

6) #490 - When Hyper moves back to Joseph at this point there is 90 seconds left to DL reading Robz(6) vs Joseph(2). This would be the only acceptable example of bussing thus far that I actually like can bring myself to believe.

That ends Day 1. At this point I am not feeling the Joseph!Hyper team.

Day 2:

1) #554/#577 - This is Hyper voting for Joseph and then moving to EFHW.

2) #612/#657 - This is Joseph voting for EFHW and then Hyper moving to Swan. My take away from points 1 and 2 here, while not the point of this response, would be more of "the team would seem to be Hyper!EFHW rather than Hyper!Joseph (speaking from my PoV).

3) #740/#745 - The first gives Joseph an out to vote anyone, or EFHW, or Hyper... and the second is essentially sealing Hypercube's fate. Considering they could of voted for WCD tying the wagons at 5-5 instead of voting for Joseph and making them 6-4.

That is the end of Day 2.

All in all - I think that EFHW put together a solid interactions post, but I just do not agree with it. I am not saying it is not plausable, and this is prior to me finishing my full Joseph read... but for this to make sense they would of had to have the mind set of actually risking the lynch of a skum player based on the other skum player's push... all the way back from  Day 1. I just don't find that super likely.

Totally agree. This is the type of effort scum needs to make in order to swing a mislynch especially after making the WIFOM trade of the year last night.

Vote: EFHW