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[Donald X.]

Doesn't that mean there will have to be a second set of Coffers mats in Renaissance for people who don't have Guilds?

On the plus side, if I understood correctly, the need for a second set of Tavern mats was a reason not to include Reserve cards in any future expansions. This opens up the hope for me we might see that much-loved feature again some day. (-8

Renaissance has mats.

Needing a Tavern mat is a reason to not have one Reserve card in a set - are we really including a mat for one card (like we did in Seaside and Prosperity). It's not an obstacle for having 10 new Reserve cards. Which is not to say that that will ever happen - I'd need to be making a set, and I'd need to want Reserve cards in it and have a bunch worth doing.

[infangthief]

Conversely, I prefer coin tokens to Coffers. So if an upgrade pack is ever made, and anyone wants to get rid of some first-edition cards in good condition, please get in touch!

So, maybe a request for a 'downgrade pack' for Renaissance, consisting of those Renaissance cards that refer to 'coffers' changed to refer to 'coin tokens' instead?

[crj]

Some things aren't worth the bother of requesting.

[Fuu]

Some things aren't worth the bother of requesting.

This appears to be a commentary on Gladiator, or at least its online implementation.

[Sparafucile]

I’m secretly hoping that at some point they will release a rewording update pack.   Even in base and intrigue there were a few cards that got small rule changes by rewording the cards.  Maybe there are enough out of date (but not deprecated) cards now that there would be a market for an update pack to adddress those - including cards that need the coin token to coffers rework.

[GendoIkari]

I’m secretly hoping that at some point they will release a rewording update pack.   Even in base and intrigue there were a few cards that got small rule changes by rewording the cards.  Maybe there are enough out of date (but not deprecated) cards now that there would be a market for an update pack to adddress those - including cards that need the coin token to coffers rework.

The problem is that the changes were not only wording. There were layout and font changes as well, which apply to every card; not just ones like Throne Room. So if players really want the "second edition" experience, they just need to buy second edition.

[Sparafucile]

The problem is that the changes were not only wording. There were layout and font changes as well, which apply to every card; not just ones like Throne Room. So if players really want the "second edition" experience, they just need to buy second edition.

I’m aware that many formatting changes were made for appearance and aesthetics.  I can’t afford to buy all of dominion a second time though .  I’m mostly interested in getting changes to cards that update the rules - so that my existing sets can still be used with the latest one in a consistent way.   I wonder how many others would be interested ....

[GendoIkari]

The problem is that the changes were not only wording. There were layout and font changes as well, which apply to every card; not just ones like Throne Room. So if players really want the "second edition" experience, they just need to buy second edition.

I’m aware that many formatting changes were made for appearance and aesthetics.  I can’t afford to buy all of dominion a second time though .  I’m mostly interested in getting changes to cards that update the rules - so that my existing sets can still be used with the latest one in a consistent way.   I wonder how many others would be interested ....

I doubt there would be a market for it. I know for me, if playing with Throne Room or Masquerade, I would just remind the other players that the card has been errata'd.

[Donald X.]

We knew that players would feel cheated if there were new cards in Dominion and Intrigue and you had to buy the new edition to get them - buying the whole box when you just wanted 7 cards. That was not an option for us. So, there were update packs. We could actually do that.

We felt like players would not feel cheated that layout was improved on every card and you had to buy the whole box to get those changes. The set of changes is the size of the box. The cards that say "Coffers" in Guilds / Cornucopia aren't the only cards that got reworded non-functionally.

If we had felt that e.g. the Masquerade change couldn't be made without providing that to players separately somehow... we would have sucked it up and not made those changes. We absolutely can't have a product that's things like, Moneylender but it says "you may." It's a garbage product. It would suck to not be able to add that "you may"; it adds up to a classic, man it sucks that we can't have nice things.

We have the nice thing and I mean feel free to tell me how much I shouldn't get to have it. I nevertheless think that what we will suck up in this case is people complaining, that there will still never be this product of just certain cards reworded. If enough people complain then in the future we will be barred from making those improvements, what a sad world that will be.

[Doom_Shark]

Can I ask a different question then? What was the reason behind making it Coffers instead of leaving it the way it was? I understand making it consistent with Renaissance, but why not just make Renaissance consistent with the existing cards?

[Willvon]

Just took a quick look after a couple of weeks away to see if anything new, and I was shocked!  I really was afraid that Nocturne was going to be last set besides maybe a few promos along the way.  So here of a whole new set with 25 kingdom cards and new things to learn and play with sounds just too good to be true.

Thank you so much Donald X and Rio Grande.  I will be eagerly awaiting the previews and being able to pick this up. 

What a great surprise. And I love the theme, too.  I am hoping that there is definitely going to be a card called "Painter" or "Artist" and/or "Sculptor", perhaps "Painting" and/or "Sculpture" also.  "Leeches" would be an interesting name for an attack card. And a thinner named "Barber" would just seem to be a perfect complement to "Butcher". 

[Fuu]

Just took a quick look after a couple of weeks away to see if anything new, and I was shocked!  I really was afraid that Nocturne was going to be last set besides maybe a few promos along the way.  So here of a whole new set with 25 kingdom cards and new things to learn and play with sounds just too good to be true.

Thank you so much Donald X and Rio Grande.  I will be eagerly awaiting the previews and being able to pick this up. 

What a great surprise. And I love the theme, too.  I am hoping that there is definitely going to be a card called "Painter" or "Artist" and/or "Sculptor", perhaps "Painting" and/or "Sculpture" also.  "Leeches" would be an interesting name for an attack card. And a thinner named "Barber" would just seem to be a perfect complement to "Butcher".

I love that idea for Barber. 'Just a little off the top please'. Trash the top card of your deck; you may gain a card with up to the same cost.

[samath]

I love that idea for Barber. 'Just a little off the top please'. Trash the top card of your deck; you may gain a card with up to the same cost.

I didn't know my Barber was becoming a Zombie; thanks for the tip.

[Donald X.]

Can I ask a different question then?

You should have asked if you could ask this.

What was the reason behind making it Coffers instead of leaving it the way it was? I understand making it consistent with Renaissance, but why not just make Renaissance consistent with the existing cards?

Without considering Renaissance, I prefer having a +1 to "take a coin token." It's cleaner, it gets to be centered and bold. You already need to know what the token means so it's not a greater rules burden. It avoids confusion with Pirate Ship and Trade Route.

As LF notes, we're not talking about Renaissance yet. There's the flavor blurb and set contents blurb and cover, and at the end of September there will be previews.

[Commodore Chuckles]

I love that idea for Barber. 'Just a little off the top please'. Trash the top card of your deck; you may gain a card with up to the same cost.

I didn't know my Barber was becoming a Zombie; thanks for the tip.

I do think that there's some design space for a "top of your deck remodeler" i.e. something that trashes a card from the top of the deck and then also gains something to the top of the deck. I'm still somewhat disappointed that Zombie Mason doesn't top deck the gain; it would feel a lot more interesting if it did.

[Donald X.]

I do think that there's some design space for a "top of your deck remodeler" i.e. something that trashes a card from the top of the deck and then also gains something to the top of the deck. I'm still somewhat disappointed that Zombie Mason doesn't top deck the gain; it would feel a lot more interesting if it did.

Multiple cards have tried that; for a while Dark Ages had one called Rebuild (Remodel one of top 3, putting the gained card on top). I thought it was fine, but it was a dud, players didn't like it. I think the key thing is, they didn't want to trash random cards from their deck, and getting to get something better and still have it on top was somehow not enough. But Zombie Mason got through because the card has other options too, and rewards you for getting cards into the trash.

[Commodore Chuckles]

I do think that there's some design space for a "top of your deck remodeler" i.e. something that trashes a card from the top of the deck and then also gains something to the top of the deck. I'm still somewhat disappointed that Zombie Mason doesn't top deck the gain; it would feel a lot more interesting if it did.

Multiple cards have tried that; for a while Dark Ages had one called Rebuild (Remodel one of top 3, putting the gained card on top). I thought it was fine, but it was a dud, players didn't like it. I think the key thing is, they didn't want to trash random cards from their deck, and getting to get something better and still have it on top was somehow not enough. But Zombie Mason got through because the card has other options too, and rewards you for getting cards into the trash.

That makes sense. I feel, though, that Zombie Mason would have been a good opportunity to implement the concept of top-decking the gain (since, as you pointed out, trashing a good card isn't as bad with it.) As it is now, it feels super weak. Would the top-decking somehow make it too strong?

[crj]

If you really want, there are plenty of cards you could combo with to top-deck gains. Or, given this is Nocturne, you could choose to gain one of the gain-to-hand cards.

[LastFootnote]

The specific outtake I remember was, I think…

???: Action, $5
Trash the top card of your deck. Gain a card costing up to $3 more than it. You may put the gained card onto your deck.

…which seems great, but in practice it was like, when am I buying this exactly? When I buy a Remodel, I have a plan for it. First trash my Estates to gain e.g. Caravans. Then later trash Golds and gain Provinces. Maybe something in between. With this card, I can't have that plan because I don't know what I'm going to trash. It's just this vanilla good-to-have card. But I'd rather buy a good-to-have card that actually fits into my strategy. So again, when do I buy this? For me the answer was, basically never (unless I'm buying it just to see how it plays, for testing purposes).

[Cave-o-sapien]

Replace seems like it fills some of this design space.

[LastFootnote]

Replace seems like it fills some of this design space.

Well there have been remodel variants that put the gained card(s) on top for a while. Or at least since Develop. But I think Zombie Mason is the first one that just straight up trashes the top card of your deck.

[trivialknot]

Zombie Mason pairs with Zombie Spy, so sometimes you have control.  It can be a clutch way to mill a province to end the game.

I also think it's great to have a difficult-to-control trasher among the zombies.  Sometimes you accidentally trash a good action, and then everybody's like, welp!  Better get Necromancers this game!  Necromancer is great design, and Nocturne is an excellent set.  What was this thread about again?

[Sheogorath]

I was just browsing through the Interview thread and found this from a few years back:

No guarantees that Gathering cards will ever appear outside of Empires, but should they remain strictly tied to VP?  Gathering with coin tokens seems like an obvious thing that could work.

For me Gathering cards want to be things that Defiled Shrine is specifically dodging putting tokens on. So, cards that put VP tokens on their pile. "Gathering with coin tokens" runs into the problem of interacting with Trade Route, but that aside, would get a different type if it happened.

Perhaps renaming coin tokens to Coffers gets around this and we can see gathering with Coffers in Renaissance?

[Oyvind]

Well there have been remodel variants that put the gained card(s) on top for a while. Or at least since Develop. But I think Zombie Mason is the first one that just straight up trashes the top card of your deck.

Lookout do trash one of your top three cards and topdecks another, but not a remodeled card. It's kind of close.

[Oyvind]

I prefer having a +1 to "take a coin token."

I agree, but the wording change didn't happen for Pirate Ship and Trade Route. Is that because they have quite a different effect from "+# Coffers", or because the idea of changing the phrase came after these revised versions were printed?

With only two remaining "take a coin token" cards, with different effects from "Coffers", I feel that it's fitting these weren't rephrased. Once they're placed on their respective cards, they kind of do the same thing, so I like that you kept the same phrase for these two even in "2nd edition".