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[iguanaiguana]

Robz/Hydrad - are you both still intent on Galz? Thoughts on his response? Thoughts on IDplay as an alternative?

If I am right about you two being town, we will need to agree on a lynch.

But if you are both town and so is Galz, then scum could have easily hammered. I was voting at one point, so if even one of you is town, they may have credibly ended the day at some point if Galz were town...

[iguanaiguana]

Actually yeah, i didn’t really think about it at first but given my place in the draft Vig should essentially absolve me... or at the very damn minimum put me ahead of Galz.

Vote: IDPTG

It would be really nice if you shot someone scummy for us, yes

[Hydrad]

Robz/Hydrad - are you both still intent on Galz? Thoughts on his response? Thoughts on IDplay as an alternative?

If I am right about you two being town, we will need to agree on a lynch.

But if you are both town and so is Galz, then scum could have easily hammered. I was voting at one point, so if even one of you is town, they may have credibly ended the day at some point if Galz were town...

I've said before that I'm fine with a IDPTG lynch. I just didn't move my vote so that we would get more talking time.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Obviously I'd move to Galz to keep myself alive.

[SpaceAnemone]

Why did Swan pick Jimmmmm for investigation N1, if indeed that's what he's claiming? It's oddly convenient.

[SpaceAnemone]

I'm not at all comfortable with the assumption that faust has put together a game where two townie protective roles can support each other indefinitely and become untouchable, and that's the scenario iguana is describing here.

I think I'm townreading iguana now, having done a load of re-reading, but assuming it is town!iguana, I think he's settled on a comfortable scenario that makes sense to him and I worry he's overlooking details like the issue above, which don't support it.

[iguanaiguana]

I'm not at all comfortable with the assumption that faust has put together a game where two townie protective roles can support each other indefinitely and become untouchable, and that's the scenario iguana is describing here.

I think I'm townreading iguana now, having done a load of re-reading, but assuming it is town!iguana, I think he's settled on a comfortable scenario that makes sense to him and I worry he's overlooking details like the issue above, which don't support it.

Where did I say that I have a townread on DatSwan? I've said I think the smartest course of action is to give DatSwan to prove he is the PR he says he is by lynching scum today and giving him a chance to shoot another scum. Failing that, I think we should go full protective and make sure scum only gets one kill so we get another chance tomorrow.

I do see suspicious aspects both to DatSwan's and Galzria's claims. So given the 50/50 it seems to be there, I don't think it's as smart as lynching someone who I believe has higher chances of being scum, IDPTG.

I've also never said that I think that EFHW and I can protect each other indefinitely. Other people have said that, sure, but not me. All I've said is that I don't see a way that the N2 scum kill was blocked other than EFHW or I protecting it, making the most likely scenario that EFHW and I are both town.

Note that having several layers of protective roles in a game makes it less likely that any particular player gets IC'd because of being protected from the NK. It's just the way it turned out.

The ways that you've described for EFHW to be scum are very much fringe cases. The explanation I am seeing is much simpler and more likely, and it's hard for me to see why you can't accept that.

[SpaceAnemone]

Some reasoning about the game state.

Scum has known all along that Eevee would be outed D3 if he lived. D1 they actually didn't bus him at all: it was just my RVS vote, and a little from LL and mcmc; nobody else voted him that day, and those two have already flipped town. If anyone scumreads me for that, you should ask yourself about why I was resolutely not on the Eevee wagon D2 when it would have looked so much more townie to be there.

Let's assume scum's roles are all things that either trap them into being discovered, or possibly screw with their ability to kill effectively. For this reason, let's assume that Jimmmmm and gkrieg were killed by different scums, ridding the scumteam of two problem roles on the first two nights. So scums 1 and 2 got rid of bad roles, and for some reason Eevee (scum #3) didn't kill N3. Maybe scum #4's power interfered, but maybe it just felt to the scumteam like it put them in a better position if they let Eevee fall, having set things up well on D2. Scum #4's role could have been auto-death if they hadn't killed yet, and/or a nerf like the first time they kill, they steal a role but the player doesn't die. If I'd been designing this game (with the assumption that what we have is decent townie actions roles and high scum numbers with nerfy roles to drive their behaviour), then that's the sort of thing I'd think about.

If this is at all accurate, I think it would be good to reexamine the people on the D2 Eevee wagon, because if the scum-team was setting up to bus, then the people voting Eevee should be a mixture of people genuinely scumreading him, and scums setting up to look townie if/when the guilty child stuff kicks in.

[Swowl]

Why did Swan pick Jimmmmm for investigation N1, if indeed that's what he's claiming? It's oddly convenient.

Go read my D1. He was tied for top skum read.

[SpaceAnemone]

@EFHW, could you clarify who was protected by your role N2 and N3?

[Awaclus]

Vote: IDPTG

[Swowl]

Some reasoning about the game state.

Scum has known all along that Eevee would be outed D3 if he lived. D1 they actually didn't bus him at all: it was just my RVS vote, and a little from LL and mcmc; nobody else voted him that day, and those two have already flipped town. If anyone scumreads me for that, you should ask yourself about why I was resolutely not on the Eevee wagon D2 when it would have looked so much more townie to be there.

Let's assume scum's roles are all things that either trap them into being discovered, or possibly screw with their ability to kill effectively. For this reason, let's assume that Jimmmmm and gkrieg were killed by different scums, ridding the scumteam of two problem roles on the first two nights. So scums 1 and 2 got rid of bad roles, and for some reason Eevee (scum #3) didn't kill N3. Maybe scum #4's power interfered, but maybe it just felt to the scumteam like it put them in a better position if they let Eevee fall, having set things up well on D2. Scum #4's role could have been auto-death if they hadn't killed yet, and/or a nerf like the first time they kill, they steal a role but the player doesn't die. If I'd been designing this game (with the assumption that what we have is decent townie actions roles and high scum numbers with nerfy roles to drive their behaviour), then that's the sort of thing I'd think about.

If this is at all accurate, I think it would be good to reexamine the people on the D2 Eevee wagon, because if the scum-team was setting up to bus, then the people voting Eevee should be a mixture of people genuinely scumreading him, and scums setting up to look townie if/when the guilty child stuff kicks in.

So i want to start this off by saying I think that it is probably far more likely that Eevee just tries to carry the kill and attacked a protected player. However, as i have spent the majority of the day accepting that while still pursuing my less than likely avenues... here are some thoughts on your thoughts:
1) Final Wagon was [II, EFHW, MCMC, Galz, Robz].

2) Galz obv was pushing Eevee as skum all the way from day1. Which is weird in your scenario, but also i do think it seemed genuine. So Idk.

3) if you want disingenuous eevee wagoing this is a pretty damn good starting point:

This is going to sound dumb at this point, but I've been turning around on gkrieg. He defended himself really well, reminding me a lot of when I pushed his lynch in jungle oligarchy and I was wrong about him. I'm not 100% he's town and still have a lot of misgivings about how much my tunnel was discredited. But sometimes my reads really do suck so there is that.

Vote: Eevee

That being said at the end II essentially refuses to switch to the Eevee wagon.

3) Robz and EFHW bounce around.

4) and we know now that MCMC was town.


First off this approach, Space, is based on some pretty large speculations regarding roles. However, if you are correct- it appears Galz and II would be the re read candidates.

[SpaceAnemone]

2) Galz obv was pushing Eevee as skum all the way from day1. Which is weird in your scenario, but also i do think it seemed genuine. So Idk.

For reference, Galz spent most of D1 not voting for anyone, joined the mcmc wagon briefly, unvoted, then moved to the LL wagon in 4th position, and stayed there till the lynch.

That being said at the end II essentially refuses to switch to the Eevee wagon.

I think Iguana is unlikely to be scum without EFHW also being scum, because of the way she backed up his motivator thing before it had been claimed.

First off this approach, Space, is based on some pretty large speculations regarding roles.

This is fair, but I'm also taking my confirmed "bad IC" theory about Eevee (when others were coming up with more wild explanations for the D3 info on him) as minor evidence that I might be thinking along the right sort of lines. If a role like yours, or some others we've seen, falls into scum hands, they don't need powerful scum PRs of their own. I think the interesting thing to do is to give them roles that force them to take turns making the kills, and to have to spend time trying to figure out which townies have scum-useful roles, and which have protective stuff that they're not so interested in acquiring.

[iguanaiguana]

Any thoughts on IDP, Space? I can't remember you talking about him and now here he sits nearly lynched.

[SpaceAnemone]

Any thoughts on IDP, Space? I can't remember you talking about him and now here he sits nearly lynched.

I actually have remarkably little opinion on him either in a townie direction or a scummy one. He's worth a reread, certainly. It's getting really late for me, but I guess with no vote then I'm off the hook as far as needing to be there for deadline... that's good, because 8am on a Sunday morning is not a time of the week that exists in Space-space!

[SpaceAnemone]

IDP re-read... I'm getting so sleepy I'm almost nodding off at my laptop and it's well after 2am, so I'm going to have to call it a night now :-(
Early on is a bunch of engagement with Awaclus, which is a good way to keep a post count up and get pretty much nowhere.
Calls me scummy, not very long after having said that something else I'd said was NAI, in response to Robz's case.
Is #416 the thing where he later says he thought he'd found a scum-slip but then it wasn't?
Agrees with me over Jimmmm, then votes me not very long after over LL.
Jumps onto my mcmc case (the wagon was already building, but he was specifically agreeing with me) at #582. Obviously my case was wrong, but was expect some scums to want to play along with it.
Third place on the D3 Eevee wagon, saying "It be hilarious if Eevee is town. Just saying." There are worlds in which that could be defined as a forced-sounding statement.
#861 "How did Awaclus become an IC?" Non-partner tell, I think, though not so relevant while Awaclus is considered sort-of-IC.
I sympathise with the desire not to fullclaim. The fact he's the only person worrying openly about scum having their pick of PRs is a bit worrying for the rest of us, really!
His later D4 argument with iguana looks like he's reading into things badly: Iguana points out that IDP comments on one claim but not another, then IDP asks where he said he wasn't commenting on the other, which is not how "not commenting" works.. I can see why that might rub Iguana up the worng way.
I certainly agree that a POE argument with so little sure evidence out there is not a strong one to make. Iguana has already gone wrong on that once this game with gkrieg.
Not sure what to make of his lack of thinking through the "two people protecting each other" thing from the side where one of them might be scum. I could clearly see what iguana was saying, because I'd gone through similar thought processes myself as a town trying to think it through, so perhaps it's a sign that IDP wasn't going through the same process. I think it's moderatley weak evidence, though.
His point at #1099 about ascetic blocking reflexive cops is solid.

My conclusion is still that I'm in two minds about him. I can certainly see stuff there that could easily fit with a scummy motivation, but I don't think it's clear at all, and I'm not fond of using POE so much as a lynch case.

[Swowl]

2) Galz obv was pushing Eevee as skum all the way from day1. Which is weird in your scenario, but also i do think it seemed genuine. So Idk.

For reference, Galz spent most of D1 not voting for anyone, joined the mcmc wagon briefly, unvoted, then moved to the LL wagon in 4th position, and stayed there till the lynch.

That being said at the end II essentially refuses to switch to the Eevee wagon.

I think Iguana is unlikely to be scum without EFHW also being scum, because of the way she backed up his motivator thing before it had been claimed.

First off this approach, Space, is based on some pretty large speculations regarding roles.

This is fair, but I'm also taking my confirmed "bad IC" theory about Eevee (when others were coming up with more wild explanations for the D3 info on him) as minor evidence that I might be thinking along the right sort of lines. If a role like yours, or some others we've seen, falls into scum hands, they don't need powerful scum PRs of their own. I think the interesting thing to do is to give them roles that force them to take turns making the kills, and to have to spend time trying to figure out which townies have scum-useful roles, and which have protective stuff that they're not so interested in acquiring.

So i will be sitting at poker tables for the next week and i am the worst at phone posting, but if memory serves Galz was full board that eevee was skum in early days.

I agree that if specifically ii is skum then efhw almost def be skum to.

And i like your theory, and have problem brainstorming it, but in he end it is speculation (just like everything else tbf)

[EFHW]

@EFHW, could you clarify who was protected by your role N2 and N3?

I have protected iguana every night. N3 I  protected a second person. I don't think it's helpful to say who.

[Hydrad]

@EFHW, could you clarify who was protected by your role N2 and N3?

I have protected iguana every night. N3 I  protected a second person. I don't think it's helpful to say who.

It was probably me since I'm basically always going to be MVP and am the greatest at the game. Thanks efhw.

[Hydrad]

On a more serious note I'm ready to lynch idtpg. I think that should still happen.

[Hydrad]

Also dat should shoot as town just so that he doesn't die with a shot available right? So the scum can't big and end the game right away.

[Hydrad]

If we lynch town and vig shots town do we lose tomorrow if scum also kills a town? I'm unable to check our count right now

[Swowl]

If idp is Town i don’t THINK i should shoot bc that’s game over if it is mislynch plus Vig miss plus nk - someone tell me i am wrong if i am wrong

[Swowl]

Someone tell me i am wrong if i am wrong bc my gameplan rn is absolutely to hold my shot if the lynch flips town

[Swowl]

Also Galz outside of me what is your skum pool rn