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[SpaceAnemone]

I'm falling behind right now :-( I'm also going straight from work to a game tonight, and it's likely to go on late, meaning I'm likely not to be back here before tomorrow morning my time.

Thoughts while trying to keep up at least a little bit: I don't mind Awaclus being a sort-of-IC, because gkrieg's breadcrumb was quite clear, so barring redirection shenanigans, we can trust that. OTOH, the assumption that Iguana and EFHW are both cleared based on the assumption I/we made about how Eevee probably expected to perform the NK and rid himself of the guilty child role is not so solid. Coincidences happen, weird scum nerfs might happen (I'm more convinced of this now that I see there are several good strong town roles out there), and it's also possible for scum just to have misplayed.

It's also possible that we could have a plot by scum!Iguana and scum!EFHW to sacrifice Eevee (who's a very nervous, not-super-willing scum anyway, as I recall) in order to set themselves up as ICs. Remember that a) we may well have two scums with daychat in Jimmmmm's neighbourhood, and b) scums probably came into the day prepared to claim, so it's possibly even more likely for two scums to have a consistent story than for two towns, given that there's clearly a lot of stuff going on in an RMM that affect everyone's results and perspectives.

[iguanaiguana]

It's also possible that we could have a plot by scum!Iguana and scum!EFHW to sacrifice Eevee (who's a very nervous, not-super-willing scum anyway, as I recall) in order to set themselves up as ICs. Remember that a) we may well have two scums with daychat in Jimmmmm's neighbourhood, and b) scums probably came into the day prepared to claim, so it's possibly even more likely for two scums to have a consistent story than for two towns, given that there's clearly a lot of stuff going on in an RMM that affect everyone's results and perspectives.

IMO Eevee plays pretty well as scum. You should reread him. He was not playing this game like he wanted to get outed on D3.

Also, here's the claim order:

IDPTG
Hydrad
iguanaiguana
EFHW
Galzria
Space
Robz
DatSwan

If EFHW and I are both scum and this were a gambit, how are we supposed to know that there aren't 1-2 MORE protective roles in the group of Galz/Space/Robz/DatSwan. What makes claiming double protective roles safe for us? We could have ended up in a situation where we had 4-5 claimed protective roles and it was obvious that scum was among some of them. Also, we would have had no way of knowing beforehand that no one else would claim any legitimate way that the N2 kill was blocked, so the payoff for such a gambit would have been too small. Only if we were near the bottom of the claim order could our claims be considered suspicious.

Also, from a setup balance perspective, 4/14 mafia with three protective roles (Iguana, EFHW, Jim) makes sense but 4/14 mafia with a single 1-shot bulletproofer as the only protective role doesn't make a lick of sense. If we are BOTH scum and BOTH lying, then this game doesn't have any kind of nightly doctoring/roleblocking/etc. type role and the list of town PRs also looks really weak. The setup you are proposing is unbalanced.

The weakest "IC" is Robz. He's just probably town. Anyone who doesn't see that EFHW and I are town is either scum or hasn't thought about it hard enough yet.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

I'd like to hear IDPTG's insight about Awaclus.

I missed something. With so little information in the set-up post, I haven't reread it as much as I normally do so I don't remember it as well. unvote

Idea went poof?

Yeah. Slips aren't slips when they're in the set-up post. I said I had a (1) reason.

What was this about exactly?

I thought there was a scumslip. Upon rereading, it wasn't.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Well, Galz and DS COULD both be scum, and hydrad and Space COULD both be scum, but yeah it's not super likely.

Why is EFHW town again? I believe you, I just don't remember.

EFHW and I should both be LIKELY town because we both protected each other on N2 when Eevee likely tried to shoot someone and failed. If DatSwan is scum and Galzria is town, then Galzria is likely bulletproof (because he probably detected Jim targeting him N1) and Eevee could have then shot Galzria and then in that case EFHW & Iguana wouldn't be cleared. In that case, we still should be considered town just because we have both been very towny. If DatSwan is town, then his result that Jim didn't bulletproof anyone N1 is likely correct and we should be both towny and cleared by results.

This is ridiculous. You're claiming that I'm scum by PoE but you're town because you and EFHW claim to have protected each other? If I accept that you two targeted each other, where's the proof that they were both protective roles?

[IDontPlayThisGame]

I do find it likely that Jim would use his bulletproof N1 on Galzria. If he town read Galz, then Galz is an obvious choice as a popular night kill.

Oh wait, town!Galz couldn't have been NK'd by Eevee because he would have detected Eevee targeting him that night. So EFHW really really should be town.

Scum!Robz wouldn't have vanillaized scum's choice for who to lynch D2 (and McMc was clearly their top lynch choice, considering how much he was pushed. I should probably go get evidence for that assertion......) So Robz really should be town.

Awaclus got copped, so he really should be town.....

SO

We have Galz/DatSwan = probably one scum
Hydrad / Space = probably one scum by default because we are out of spots for both to be town and it's very unlikely that they both planned to claim neighbors and both are scum.
IDP = scum, because he's the only spot left to put scum somewhere.

This is the best bit. You've got two "probably" statements and one is even followed by more hypothetical analysis but you end up with a concrete conclusion. If any one of your earlier assumptions is is wrong, your "case" on me falls apart since it's built on nothing more than PoE.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

I can confirm that I have received the benefit  iguana describes. I am the Liver. I also have a protective type role, and have been protecting iguana.

This is even more vague than my claim and I really don't see how it would verify EFHW as town. Any scum role that targets a person can look like protection as long as scum never NKs the person they're targeting. Iguana, what's your reason to think that EFHW is basically conf!town because of this?

[IDontPlayThisGame]

I'm ok with an IDP lynch. He is very different this game. He said he's some kind of enabler. It would be good to hear more about that.

Still hoping for an answer to this.

Not happening yet. I had my reasons for keeping it quiet and they're still valid.

[iguanaiguana]

Well, Galz and DS COULD both be scum, and hydrad and Space COULD both be scum, but yeah it's not super likely.

Why is EFHW town again? I believe you, I just don't remember.

EFHW and I should both be LIKELY town because we both protected each other on N2 when Eevee likely tried to shoot someone and failed. If DatSwan is scum and Galzria is town, then Galzria is likely bulletproof (because he probably detected Jim targeting him N1) and Eevee could have then shot Galzria and then in that case EFHW & Iguana wouldn't be cleared. In that case, we still should be considered town just because we have both been very towny. If DatSwan is town, then his result that Jim didn't bulletproof anyone N1 is likely correct and we should be both towny and cleared by results.

This is ridiculous. You're claiming that I'm scum by PoE but you're town because you and EFHW claim to have protected each other? If I accept that you two targeted each other, where's the proof that they were both protective roles?

We blocked a kill. Also see my response to Space above.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Well, Galz and DS COULD both be scum, and hydrad and Space COULD both be scum, but yeah it's not super likely.

Why is EFHW town again? I believe you, I just don't remember.

EFHW and I should both be LIKELY town because we both protected each other on N2 when Eevee likely tried to shoot someone and failed. If DatSwan is scum and Galzria is town, then Galzria is likely bulletproof (because he probably detected Jim targeting him N1) and Eevee could have then shot Galzria and then in that case EFHW & Iguana wouldn't be cleared. In that case, we still should be considered town just because we have both been very towny. If DatSwan is town, then his result that Jim didn't bulletproof anyone N1 is likely correct and we should be both towny and cleared by results.

This is ridiculous. You're claiming that I'm scum by PoE but you're town because you and EFHW claim to have protected each other? If I accept that you two targeted each other, where's the proof that they were both protective roles?

We blocked a kill. Also see my response to Space above.

You claim to have targeted two different people, so only one of you did any real blocking assuming that's the reason the N2 kill didn't go through. I never said you're both scum, just that claiming you're both town because a kill was blocked is absurd. You never addressed the possibility of only one of you being scum, just either both of you as town or both as scum.

Why are you so convinced EFHW is town?

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Your PoE case seems to revolve around everyone telling the truth....which definitely didn't happen.

[iguanaiguana]

Well, Galz and DS COULD both be scum, and hydrad and Space COULD both be scum, but yeah it's not super likely.

Why is EFHW town again? I believe you, I just don't remember.

EFHW and I should both be LIKELY town because we both protected each other on N2 when Eevee likely tried to shoot someone and failed. If DatSwan is scum and Galzria is town, then Galzria is likely bulletproof (because he probably detected Jim targeting him N1) and Eevee could have then shot Galzria and then in that case EFHW & Iguana wouldn't be cleared. In that case, we still should be considered town just because we have both been very towny. If DatSwan is town, then his result that Jim didn't bulletproof anyone N1 is likely correct and we should be both towny and cleared by results.

This is ridiculous. You're claiming that I'm scum by PoE but you're town because you and EFHW claim to have protected each other? If I accept that you two targeted each other, where's the proof that they were both protective roles?

We blocked a kill. Also see my response to Space above.

You claim to have targeted two different people, so only one of you did any real blocking assuming that's the reason the N2 kill didn't go through. I never said you're both scum, just that claiming you're both town because a kill was blocked is absurd. You never addressed the possibility of only one of you being scum, just either both of you as town or both as scum.

Why are you so convinced EFHW is town?

Because either they shot her and I blocked it or they shot me and she blocked it. It takes two people to block a kill.

[EFHW]

Your PoE case seems to revolve around everyone telling the truth....which definitely didn't happen.

You'll need to refute his answer to Space to be taken seriously. This has been the topic of pages of discussion already.

vote: IDPTG

[Swowl]

Your PoE case seems to revolve around everyone telling the truth....which definitely didn't happen.

You'll need to refute his answer to Space to be taken seriously. This has been the topic of pages of discussion already.

vote: IDPTG

I think his point is that if one of you/iguana is skum, then you are most likely lying - the logic that someone needs to be able to refute the case is a moot point... the argument is “someone is lying”.

[Galzria]

Sorry all - didn't have the time I thought I would yesterday afternoon. My day today looks pretty busy at the moment as well, but I'll really really really try to get some time set aside for this evening.

[Swowl]

Idp what is your skum pool rn?

[Swowl]

Btw all i am mobile only for the rest of the game day - I’ll have constant access but sorry for typos and shit in advance.

[iguanaiguana]

Your PoE case seems to revolve around everyone telling the truth....which definitely didn't happen.

You'll need to refute his answer to Space to be taken seriously. This has been the topic of pages of discussion already.

vote: IDPTG

I think his point is that if one of you/iguana is skum, then you are most likely lying - the logic that someone needs to be able to refute the case is a moot point... the argument is “someone is lying”.

Dude... if she is scum and I am town, who blocked the N2 kill? I mean, seriously, explain that. You yourself claim Jim didn't use his bulletproof on anyone. No one else has claimed a protecting action.

[Swowl]

Your PoE case seems to revolve around everyone telling the truth....which definitely didn't happen.

You'll need to refute his answer to Space to be taken seriously. This has been the topic of pages of discussion already.

vote: IDPTG

I think his point is that if one of you/iguana is skum, then you are most likely lying - the logic that someone needs to be able to refute the case is a moot point... the argument is “someone is lying”.

Dude... if she is scum and I am town, who blocked the N2 kill? I mean, seriously, explain that. You yourself claim Jim didn't use his bulletproof on anyone. No one else has claimed a protecting action.

Dude ...
1) skum is lying has an rb and they blocked me n1
2) whatever IDP is “enabling” could play a part
3) spaces unknown shot could have something to do with it

The only one that i know is an option is number 1. But just saying... there are possible ways. I’m not like pushing for EFHW or you at this point, i just don’t want the concept “you both have to be Town” to be generally accepted bc it is false.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Your PoE case seems to revolve around everyone telling the truth....which definitely didn't happen.

You'll need to refute his answer to Space to be taken seriously. This has been the topic of pages of discussion already.

vote: IDPTG

His answer to Space has nothing to do with what I said there.

[iguanaiguana]

Can you settle for, we are town, all that stuff you said is a lot less likely than the simple explanation that scum shot one of us because we were (and still are ) very towny players and we ended up protecting each other for the same reason? We both decided to fight a mislynch and push a correct lynch the day before... the explanation that we are both town makes clear sense whereas the resistance to it sounds conspiratorial. Huh, it's almost as if the scum team doesn't want the other townies to accept that there are two IC-level townies who can protect each other at night.

Also, what is your end goal here? Do you seriously think IDP is towny at this point? If so, why?  Do you understand why it isn't easy for the rest of us to sort between you and Galz and therefore finding someone else who is likely to be scum is better?

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Well, Galz and DS COULD both be scum, and hydrad and Space COULD both be scum, but yeah it's not super likely.

Why is EFHW town again? I believe you, I just don't remember.

EFHW and I should both be LIKELY town because we both protected each other on N2 when Eevee likely tried to shoot someone and failed. If DatSwan is scum and Galzria is town, then Galzria is likely bulletproof (because he probably detected Jim targeting him N1) and Eevee could have then shot Galzria and then in that case EFHW & Iguana wouldn't be cleared. In that case, we still should be considered town just because we have both been very towny. If DatSwan is town, then his result that Jim didn't bulletproof anyone N1 is likely correct and we should be both towny and cleared by results.

This is ridiculous. You're claiming that I'm scum by PoE but you're town because you and EFHW claim to have protected each other? If I accept that you two targeted each other, where's the proof that they were both protective roles?

We blocked a kill. Also see my response to Space above.

You claim to have targeted two different people, so only one of you did any real blocking assuming that's the reason the N2 kill didn't go through. I never said you're both scum, just that claiming you're both town because a kill was blocked is absurd. You never addressed the possibility of only one of you being scum, just either both of you as town or both as scum.

Why are you so convinced EFHW is town?

Because either they shot her and I blocked it or they shot me and she blocked it. It takes two people to block a kill.

I disagree that it takes two people to block a kill, but I acknowledge I hadn't completely thought through the one scum/one town scenario for the two of you. A blocked kill suggests both town, but only if that really is why there was no kill. There are scenarios where the kill went elsewhere and was still blocked because, as I implied earlier, scum is probably lying.

PPE: Iguana, what's your actual case on me?

[iguanaiguana]

Your PoE case seems to revolve around everyone telling the truth....which definitely didn't happen.

You'll need to refute his answer to Space to be taken seriously. This has been the topic of pages of discussion already.

vote: IDPTG

His answer to Space has nothing to do with what I said there.

I don't even think everyone is telling the truth. I am just looking at occam's razor and sorting what is highly likely and makes sense from absurd conspiracy theory level stuff.

Not everyone is lying... but only three people are... and I was able to deduce a lot from that.

But I did go back and read you to be sure and you habe not been towny at all. I was wrong about you D1 as I often am.

[iguanaiguana]

PPE: Iguana, what's your actual case on me?

Besides the amazing PoE like what is rarely seen in mafia?

You have a scummy, dodgy claim that gives you no accountability to show or prove anything that's happened this game.

You are frequently mislynched because you are misunderstood, but this game you've flown under the radar all game until now when I started tunneling you.

When you voted, you voted either for unpopular options that gained little traction and had no account, or you voted for mislynches. You helped push McMc over the line D2 right when I started to really push hard for Eevee to be lynched instead.

You have a suspiciously low level of interaction with the other suspect players in the game... namely DatSwan, Galzria, and Space. Two of those three are likely your partners and there's nothing to indicate that any of them are unlikely partners with you.

When I started pushing your case, several people who are likely to be scum started agitating and coming up with conspiracy theories about an EFHW/Iguana scum team in order to discredit me and therefore defend you, but without ever saying anything about you directly.

ALL OF THAT IS SCUMMY

[IDontPlayThisGame]

PPE: Iguana, what's your actual case on me?

Besides the amazing PoE like what is rarely seen in mafia?

You have a scummy, dodgy claim that gives you no accountability to show or prove anything that's happened this game.

You are frequently mislynched because you are misunderstood, but this game you've flown under the radar all game until now when I started tunneling you.

When you voted, you voted either for unpopular options that gained little traction and had no account, or you voted for mislynches. You helped push McMc over the line D2 right when I started to really push hard for Eevee to be lynched instead.

You have a suspiciously low level of interaction with the other suspect players in the game... namely DatSwan, Galzria, and Space. Two of those three are likely your partners and there's nothing to indicate that any of them are unlikely partners with you.

When I started pushing your case, several people who are likely to be scum started agitating and coming up with conspiracy theories about an EFHW/Iguana scum team in order to discredit me and therefore defend you, but without ever saying anything about you directly.

ALL OF THAT IS SCUMMY

It's not that great.

If you knew what it was, you'd understand why I'm hedging.

That's false. I'm almost never mislynched. Misunderstood, maybe, but lynched because of it? Never. Unless someone can prove me wrong, I've been lynched four times (if I weren't on my phone, I'd pull the game numbers): D1 in LOST Mafia (mislynch, wasn't very active), D1 in whichever one you modded (mislynch, again, wasn't very active), D1 some time in July 2017 (correct lynch, I had a terrible post that sealed my fate and town jumped on it), and D3 in the game where Robz found 2 scum with 2 Cop shots (correct lynch, replaced into a Cop with a guilty result on me).

We've established I'm not very good at this game. I had the lowest winrate on f.ds for a time and I still probably do (barring players with <3 games). My only victories have come after my mislynch. Arguably my very presence is anti-town.

If they were my partners, why would I have avoided talking to them especially when I've been making an effort to talk more?

They probably didn't say anything about me because they're not defending me...

Also, I don't think we've played enough together where you weren't scum to say you misread me "often".

[IDontPlayThisGame]

I do find it likely that Jim would use his bulletproof N1 on Galzria. If he town read Galz, then Galz is an obvious choice as a popular night kill.

Oh wait, town!Galz couldn't have been NK'd by Eevee because he would have detected Eevee targeting him that night. So EFHW really really should be town.

Ascetic blocks Cops, does it not? I wouldn't be surprised if it also blocks Reflexive Cops (faust hasn't answered me).