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Author Topic: The defining cards of the sets  (Read 8580 times)

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meshuggah42

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The defining cards of the sets
« on: February 29, 2012, 04:10:16 pm »
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http://dominionstrategy.com/2011/06/28/the-five-best-6-cards/

This article's last sentence made me wonder about what everyone thinks about the sets now available and what you think are the defining cards of them. By defining cards I mean when you think about a set, what card comes immediately to mind as the best or most useful or most game warping one. You can nominate cards relative to only its own set or all sets at once, it's up to you. :)

Feel free to add explanations as to why you chose that given card.

My nominees are:

Base: Chapel

I hesitated between this and Gardens, but I came to the conclusion that the first real trasher card (and still a very strong one) should be my choice because it changes the whole game by getting rid of all those junk cards you start with.

Intigue: Minion

No question here, one of my most hated/most loved cards of the set, it holds a special place in my heart. :)

Seaside: Wharf

THE best duration card, and therefore the definer of the entire expansion imo.

Alchemy: Possession

Also a love/hate relationship, this card can make people lose friends. :)

Prosperity: Goons

The card that can give you the "Who needs green cards" award and massive points. Sure it needs support, but think about this: who remembers the other engine parts when getting crushed by Goons? They only remember the pounding of Goons after Goons and dozens of VP-s scored by them. :)

Cornucopia: Menagerie

I just love this one, and it's always a very satisfactory feeling when you announce: "I have no duplicates in hand." :)

Hinterlands: Scheme

Pure craziness, that's what this is. Sure, IGG is game warping too, but it's kinda dull. Not Scheme. It gives control you couldn't imagine before. :)

Promo: Governor

Promos are not a set, but I thought I should include every available card and among the five, this is the most useful.
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jsh357

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Re: The defining cards of the sets
« Reply #1 on: February 29, 2012, 04:16:40 pm »
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Smithy for Base, since it's mostly about Big Money and very basic effects

Torturer for Intrigue: Alternate "victory," several effects, opponent interaction

Tactician, exemplifies "Short term loss, next turn benefit" the most

Alchemy, Scrying Pool: uses Potions and encourages Action-heavy decks

Prosperity: Goons, Colony or King's Court?  Cards that dramatically change the central focus of a game

Cornucopia: Fairgrounds, in the end rewards variety the most

Hinterlands: IGG, it's all about getting/giving stuff on buy and changing the tempo of the game


Edit: Er.. I was responding to the topic title, not the actual question in the thread.  My bad.
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meshuggah42

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Re: The defining cards of the sets
« Reply #2 on: February 29, 2012, 04:27:03 pm »
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Edit: Er.. I was responding to the topic title, not the actual question in the thread.  My bad.

I think there's no problem with your reply. :)
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brokoli

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Re: The defining cards of the sets
« Reply #3 on: February 29, 2012, 04:51:07 pm »
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Base : Village. The first, the simplest, and the funniest card for combos.
Intrigue : I hesitate between Baron, Minion and masquerade. Baron is my favorite but Minion and masquerade are really strong.
Seaside : Tactician. fishing village and wharf are close, but tactician is a good card for all strategies.
Alchemy : I hesitate between scrying pool and vineyard. I tend to prefer vineyard but scrying pool is strong and often purchased.
Prosperity : Goons. High cost, money, VP tokens, attack. This is THE defining card from prosperity
Cornucopia : Menagerie My favorite card in Dominion, and the best from Cornucopia. I love it.
Hinterlands : Ill-gotten gains. I agree with jsh357.
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AJD

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Re: The defining cards of the sets
« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2012, 05:19:22 pm »
+2

I think the way I want to interpret this question is as what cards are most characteristic of their sets—which ones do the best job of embodying the theme(s) of the set and/or the strategies they enable.

Base: Smithy. The simplest card in Dominion, and the enabler for the most basic winning strategy against which all others are measured.
Intrigue: Nobles. A mixed-type Victory card which offers a choice of on-play effects, embodying the two new concepts that Intrigue introduced to the world of Dominion.
Seaside: Wharf. The Smithy of Duration cards, and a powerful enabler for both big-money and engine strategies.
Alchemy: Scrying Pool. The card that emphasizes just how much Alchemy lets you do with a deck full of Actions.
Prosperity: I'm torn here between Goons and King's Court. The former is an expensive card that grants VP chips; but the latter is a $7 card—a variety unique to Prosperity—and very evidently a bigger-and-badder version of a humble card from the base set. And neither of them is a special Treasure, so neither of them sums up Prosperity as a whole.
Cornucopia: Menagerie. Not only does it reward variety in a straightforward way, it also has combo potential with many of the other cards in the set that cause you to discard from hand.
Hinterlands: Border Village. It has an on-gain effect, and its on-gain effect is an additional gain—thus allowing you to trigger further on-gain effects, and representing the thick-deck strategies that Hinterlands encourages.
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AJD

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Re: The defining cards of the sets
« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2012, 05:21:09 pm »
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Oh, and Promo: Black Market. A ridiculous card with a bizarre effect that only seems to make sense outside the regular expansions.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: The defining cards of the sets
« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2012, 05:22:46 pm »
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Prosperity: I'm torn here between Goons and King's Court. The former is an expensive card that grants VP chips; but the latter is a $7 card—a variety unique to Prosperity—and very evidently a bigger-and-badder version of a humble card from the base set. And neither of them is a special Treasure, so neither of them sums up Prosperity as a whole.

Bank?
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ycz6

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Re: The defining cards of the sets
« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2012, 05:23:19 pm »
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Base: Silver. Maaaaybe Chapel.
Intrigue: Nobles. Action/Victory and choices.
Seaside: Fishing Village, I guess?
Alchemy: Obviously Potion. Maybe Vineyard if you're not being a smartass.
Prosperity: Colony. It has to be. VP chips are cool and all, but Platinum/Colony games are really the important thing Prosperity gave us.
Cornucopia: Fairgrounds. Tournament has to get a honorable mention here.
Hinterlands: Ill-Gotten Gains. The most notable on-gain effect of the bunch.
Promos: Black Market. A card that could really only work as a promo.
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Robz888

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Re: The defining cards of the sets
« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2012, 05:26:42 pm »
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Base: Chapel and Smithy.
Intrigue: Masquerade and Nobles
Seaside: Wharf and Fishing Village
Prosperity: Grand Market and King's Court
Alchemy: Scrying Pool and Golem
Cornucopia: Hunting Party and Menagerie
Hinterlands: Haggler and Jack of all Trades
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AJD

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Re: The defining cards of the sets
« Reply #9 on: February 29, 2012, 05:28:29 pm »
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Prosperity: I'm torn here between Goons and King's Court. The former is an expensive card that grants VP chips; but the latter is a $7 card—a variety unique to Prosperity—and very evidently a bigger-and-badder version of a humble card from the base set. And neither of them is a special Treasure, so neither of them sums up Prosperity as a whole.

Bank?

Maaaaybe. I mean, yes, it fits into both the themes of "special treasure" and "$7 card", but I feel like it doesn't do a great job of showing off the kinds of strategies that Prosperity enables.
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blueblimp

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Re: The defining cards of the sets
« Reply #10 on: February 29, 2012, 06:24:59 pm »
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Base: Smithy. BM is strong in the base set, and Smithy+BM set the original baseline for strong BM strategies.

Intrigue: Masquerade. A very strong card and one with choices. It's also a departure from the dullness of the base set and it's a lot of fun to play with IRL.

Seaside: Wharf. Seaside has many powerful cards and many duration cards, and Wharf is arguably the most powerful of the durations.

Alchemy: Scrying Pool. This is surely one of the best enablers of crazy action strategies that ever was, and Alchemy is all about crazy action strategies.

Prosperity: King's Court. No argument with the article, although as others have said, it's hard to sum up Prosperity with a single card.

Cornucopia: Horn of Plenty. It's not the most powerful card in the expansion, but it's the most on-theme and allows for completely new strategies.

Hinterlands: Ill-Gotten Gains. It's game-warpingly powerful because of the on-gain effect, which is a major theme of the expansion.

Promo: Black Market. Nothing says promo like the weirdness of this card.
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toaster

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Re: The defining cards of the sets
« Reply #11 on: February 29, 2012, 06:55:55 pm »
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Well, my thoughts are:

Base: Smithy/Village.  Two card that are simple and to the point, both of which provide interesting opportunities (and pitfalls) for early Dominion skill development.

Intrigue: Minion and Nobles.  Tough to choose between the two: Nobles encapsulates the dual-type and choices themes, while Minion is emblematic of choices and interaction/attacks.  Minion probably edges out on this one in my book.

Seaside: Wharf.  Seaside really has to be represented by a duration card, and Wharf is one of the illustrations of just how good a simple effect spread out over two turns can be.

Alchemy: Golem.  Perhaps not ultimately the strongest action-enabling card in the set, but it's the clearest and most obvious example of the theme.

Prosperity: Bank, Grand Market, Platinum.  Tough call between these, as I think they all do a good job of capturing the "big spender" feel of Prosperity.  Colony would be a good choice as well.  Goons I think is a rather poor choice: it's certainly one of the most powerful cards in the set and the game as a whole, but I don't think that makes it a good representative of the Prosperity set...it doesn't tend to set up games where wealth is a big focus.

Cornucopia: Menagerie.  I was initially going to go with Tournament, but tend to agree with the point brought up by others that this card best represents the variety theme.

Hinterlands: Inn.  There are lots of good candidates here, but Inn wins out for best representation of the "interesting things on gain" theme, even if I'm not a big fan of the card itself.
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chwhite

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Re: The defining cards of the sets
« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2012, 07:04:08 pm »
+1

This post by Donald is relevant here.

My votes are, like many of those here, just as much about the theme of the set as the power of the cards.  Chapel is super-strong, but it's at its best when there's an engine to be had, and there usually isn't in base set.  And, no, I'm not including any of the base cards in my calcuation here, no Platinum/Colony/Potion.

Base: Smithy and Witch.  The base set is all about simplicity, and Smithy is in a very real sense the simplest card in the game (even if Harem has less text).

Intrigue: Masquerade, Nobles, and probably either Torturer or Minion. In addition to the stated Victory theme and the choices theme (the latter of which all of these cards have), Intrigue is definitely the cruelest expansion.  Nobles has to be the most typical- it's the one Victory card that actually gives you a choice- but how can you leave out Masq?  Most other sets only have one or two easy choices, but I think it's fitting that I can't decide for Intrigue.

Seaside: Tactician.  Nothing else comes close, this is a pure "your next turn" card way above and beyond all the other Durations- and luckily enough it's one of the strongest cards of the set too.  (Wharf is the typical #1 choice but I think it's pretty close actually).  For all its overwhelming strength, Ambassador is too off-theme to be counted here.

Alchemy: Scrying Pool and Vineyard.  Alchemy is all about Potions, and also "caring about Actions", and these are the two Potion cards which care the most about Actions.  Conveniently enough they're also the second and third-best cards in the set.

Prosperity: King's Court.  Nothing else is bigger and badder.  Goons, Grand Market, and Bank are all fine runners-up, touching on some of the sub-themes that KC doesn't (VP chips and Treasure).  Goons may very well be the strongest card in all of Dominion, in fact, I think its only competition is KC and Ambassador (2-player games only).

Cornucopia: Tournament, with a runner-up prize to all of them 'cause it's about variety har har.  Actually not really, the runner-up is Menagerie.  I'm really surprised that Tournament hasn't been mentioned more here; it's arguably the set's strongest card (though probably second to Hunting Party), and nothing else does more for variety, by putting five new unique cards in the game.  Apparently it was the superstar in playtesting, too.  Menagerie gets the runner-up nod for integrating the old hand management sub-theme.  Hunting Party is probably the set's best card, but it leads to too many HP spam games where lack of variety is the goal.

Hinterlands: Ill-Gotten Gains, Embassy, and Tunnel.  Donald X has identified a bunch of themes within Hinterlands beyond just "when gain" abilities- there's a lot of sifting, alternate Victory and Reactions, and in general a whole turn towards decks which are fat (esp. with Silver), and which can deal with their enlarged size well.  IGG is of course the quintessential game-warping when-gain card, Embassy is another strong card which uses the when-gain as a nerf instead, and also ties into sifting, Tunnel is a Victory-Reaction! (which gets better with sifting around), 'nuff said. 

Promo: Gotta be Black Market.
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Ozle

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Re: The defining cards of the sets
« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2012, 07:42:11 pm »
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For the sets I have:

Base: Chapel. It changes the way you think about the game, makes you think about efficiency rather than power. (Side note has to go to Gardens for the alternative way to win)

Intrigue: Torturer. It seems a step up from Witch (which it isnt really, its different) but to new players it seems big and dangerous, and it draws you three cards!

Alchemy: Tricky one, but I think the first card everyones eyes fall on is Possesion, its a power card, thats why it costs so much, but theres a reason for that. Like it or hate it (and I loathe it) it just jumps out at any player reading the set. (Personally I love scrying pool)

Seaside: Another tricky set as theres so much of interest going on. The first card that jumps out is Outpost, but I would still plump for Wharf once people have played with it.
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v3ck

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Re: The defining cards of the sets
« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2012, 09:16:23 pm »
+18

The sets are really defined by how they put Curses in your deck.

Base: Witch
Basic curser

Intrigue: Torturer
Curser with a choice

Seaside: Sea Hag
Curser that affects the next turn

Alchemy: Familiar
Curser that costs a Potion and is better than a basic curser

Prosperity: Mountebank
Curser that gives treasure cards

Cornucopia: Young Witch
Curser that increases variety

Hinterlands: Ill-Gotten Gains
On-gain curser
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AJD

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Re: The defining cards of the sets
« Reply #15 on: February 29, 2012, 11:17:59 pm »
+1

V3ck, that's brilliant. The only thing I'd add is, Familiar is also the only curser which gives +action (which is on-theme).
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Anon79

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Re: The defining cards of the sets
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2012, 12:44:11 am »
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Why should the defining cards be the strong cards? Other than Prosperity, Seaside, and to a certain extent Cornucopia, strong cards aren't representative of the sets and thus aren't "defining".

Base: Mine. Yes I don't mind getting 1 & playing BM+X, but like many other Base cards, needs lots of work in order for it to be part of a combo etc.
Intrigue: Pawn. Sometimes ignorable, sometimes vital, and gives you choices to make.
Seaside: Wharf. Well it's either this or Fishing Village. Tactician is strong, but it's not representative.
Alchemy: Alchemist. Embodies the very question "so do I buy that Potion or not?"
Prosperity: Goons. Again KC is strong, but it's not representative.
Cornucopia: Horn of Plenty. Rewards managed variety, not all-out variety (Fairgrounds) or 5-card decks (Hunting Party).
Hinterlands: Cartographer. Rewards careful play; can become a trap card if you don't do it correctly.
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DrHades

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Re: The defining cards of the sets
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2012, 04:42:36 am »
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I was going for a card that completely changes the game (because that's what first comes to my mind), is very strong and posibly kinda defines the set.

Base: Witch - definitely the strongest card of the whole set, total gamechanger. HM: Chapel, but it needs a good board to shine.
Intrique: Minion - selfengine attack with a choice, what's not to love? HM: Torturer, but it sucks without villages.
Seaside: Tactician - duration, strong and speedy, DoubleTactician is often unbeatable. HM: Fishing Village, but like Chapel - it is useless on it's own.
Alchemy: Scrying Pool - actions matters, when there is good trashing and non-terminal actions, it's an unstopable beast (that slows the game like hell). HM: Familiar, but it is not so interesting. Curser in base was "whov", curser in Alchemy is "meh".
Prosperity: King's Court - one of the 2 strongest card in the whole game, no need to explain. HM: Goons and this needs to be explain. I think Goons are stronger and more gamechanging. But when you say "Prosperity", I think of King's Court. I don't know why, I just think that it better describes the nature of this set...
Cornucopia: Hunting Party - first, it looks like a wierd Lab. But it is much much much more...HM: Menagerie, Tournament, but Tournament is not so much gamechanging as HP and Menagerie nicely describes the set, but is not very strong.
Hinterlands: Jack of all Trades - I don't care whether this describes the set at all, this is on of the most suprisingly strong card there has ever been! HM: Ill-Gotten Gains, but it is not good on many boards.
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Kuildeous

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Re: The defining cards of the sets
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2012, 09:24:30 am »
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Hmm, fascinating question. I read the responses with interest.

Base: Market. I can see the point about Smithy having a core rule. I feel Market is a stronger representative because it contains +Action, +Card, +Buy, and +Coin. It feels like a quintessential basic card, even though it has four benefits.

Intrigue: Masquerade. It has interaction and choice. Minion and Torturer rank up there for the same reason.

Seaside: Treasure Map. It has the same frustration and reward as if you were following a real treasure map. It also fits in the "next turn" theme when it succeeds. Naturally, the duration cards rank up there, but I can't choose just one.

Alchemy: Scrying Pool. It greatly rewards action-heavy decks. I'm tempted to place Vineyard second for the same reason, but I'm also leaning toward University because it is a card that easily builds action-heavy decks. It'd be stronger if it wasn't capped out at actions costing 5 or less.

Prosperity: Bank. When I think of big money, I think of Bank. It's an expensive card, and its payout can be huge. Even in a boring deck, a Bank can be worth $4 or $5. In a powerful engine, it's possible to get it up in the double digits. Second would be Mint, as it interacts heavily with treasure cards. I simply couldn't agree with Goons or with King's Court. These two cards do not make me think of big money. I agree that King's Court can lead to big money, but it really only intensifies whatever it's played with. It just so happens to be a Prosperity card and not Alchemy or Seaside or whatever.

Cornucopia: Fairgrounds. This rewards you for having a variety while not puttering out if you have multiples of a card (which is why I don't rank Menagerie as highly). Not quite making it would be Harvest and Horn of Plenty. The former because it's also less effective if you have multiples of a card and the latter because it doesn't benefit you if you invest in a variety of victory cards (and Curse).

Hinterlands: Mandarin. Naturally, I went with the on-gain theme. The only reason I chose Mandarin over the others is that as long as you get your money from treasures, you will be able to keep buying Mandarin every turn with the same treasures until it runs out. All other on-gain cards would be second, though IGG may edge into second because it's the only on-gain curser. I could easily flip-flop on this one; it's not that strong of a decision.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: The defining cards of the sets
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2012, 09:51:27 am »
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Prosperity: Bank. When I think of big money, I think of Bank. It's an expensive card, and its payout can be huge. Even in a boring deck, a Bank can be worth $4 or $5. In a powerful engine, it's possible to get it up in the double digits. Second would be Mint, as it interacts heavily with treasure cards. I simply couldn't agree with Goons or with King's Court. These two cards do not make me think of big money. I agree that King's Court can lead to big money, but it really only intensifies whatever it's played with. It just so happens to be a Prosperity card and not Alchemy or Seaside or whatever.
The thing is, even though Prosperity has a theme about treasures and contains several special treasure cards, it's definately not about Big Money. It's a huge engine expansion with Goons and King's Court being the most dominant cards. I would choose Goons here because it also covers the VP tokens thing.
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Kuildeous

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Re: The defining cards of the sets
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2012, 10:35:55 am »
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The thing is, even though Prosperity has a theme about treasures and contains several special treasure cards, it's definately not about Big Money. It's a huge engine expansion with Goons and King's Court being the most dominant cards. I would choose Goons here because it also covers the VP tokens thing.


Well, I don't mean capital Big Money, the strategy. I just mean big money in general where you can afford to buy two or three Provinces/Colonies. Granted, Bank and Mint can't get you there without +Buy and that's where I could give some leeway to Goons, but Grand Market has the same buying power as Goons. While the VP chips are unique to Prosperity, I just don't see it being the defining element of the set.

What also makes this question fascinating is seeing how different people interpret the themes. Donald's secret histories have shown how the expansions are not completely homogenized in meeting that theme, which is actually a good thing, I think.
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J.Co.

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Re: The defining cards of the sets
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2012, 03:26:01 am »
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Hmm, fascinating question. I read the responses with interest.

Alchemy: Scrying Pool. It greatly rewards action-heavy decks. I'm tempted to place Vineyard second for the same reason, but I'm also leaning toward University because it is a card that easily builds action-heavy decks. It'd be stronger if it wasn't capped out at actions costing 5 or less.

Cornucopia: Fairgrounds. This rewards you for having a variety while not puttering out if you have multiples of a card (which is why I don't rank Menagerie as highly). Not quite making it would be Harvest and Horn of Plenty. The former because it's also less effective if you have multiples of a card and the latter because it doesn't benefit you if you invest in a variety of victory cards (and Curse).


I agree with most of those (especially Bank, easily the most defining thematic card of Prosperity)
I would say Tournament deserves more honorable mention than the others simply because the Prizes are one-of-a-kind and specialized to this expansion in particular. I actually first think of Golem when it comes to the alchemy set for the sheer crazy awesomeness of what it does, but I guess Scrying Pool is deserving, too.
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Re: The defining cards of the sets
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2012, 03:40:13 am »
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I don't have a fresh idea for each set, but for me Prosperity is defined by Colony.

Self-explanatory really. Its the card that makes you go "HOW many VP?" and "HOW many $?" and then realise you have to rethink the way you play Dominion because of it.
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