Dominion > Dominion Articles
Duration Draw and Stop Card Capacity
faust:
This is a good topic to explore!
I think it would be nice to add a section on how duration draw compares to regular draw, because as defined in the article, regular (terminal) draw is always superior to duration draw in terms of SCC (that is because you defined it not looking at actions). So some clarification would be helpful I imagine.
Another minor nitpick is the list of "potentially important stop cards". Why is University there? I get the basic cards references because well they are in every game, and Bridge is a good example of an explosive card, but Uni is neither particularly strong nor basic. Maybe the idea is to illustrate that even +actions can be stop cards? Then maybe it is better to explicitly state so, as otherwise newer players might be led to believe that Uni is on par with Bridge in terms of strength.
markusin:
--- Quote from: faust on March 29, 2018, 03:52:58 am ---This is a good topic to explore!
I think it would be nice to add a section on how duration draw compares to regular draw, because as defined in the article, regular (terminal) draw is always superior to duration draw in terms of SCC (that is because you defined it not looking at actions). So some clarification would be helpful I imagine.
Another minor nitpick is the list of "potentially important stop cards". Why is University there? I get the basic cards references because well they are in every game, and Bridge is a good example of an explosive card, but Uni is neither particularly strong nor basic. Maybe the idea is to illustrate that even +actions can be stop cards? Then maybe it is better to explicitly state so, as otherwise newer players might be led to believe that Uni is on par with Bridge in terms of strength.
--- End quote ---
Yeah it seems I need to clarify the difference between terminal draw and duration draw. Non-duration terminal draw does not influence SCC because, if you drew your deck last turm, then there is a chance you start your turn with 5 stop cards and have a complete dud before you find any of that draw, or that you see 5 stop cards before you find any handsize increasing draw. For example, you have 4 stop cards and a Market, and then the Market finds a 5th stop card before it finds a Lab. Yes in practice this is unlikely in most cases with a deck stuffed with draw, but it is still technically possible. With duration draw, the number of stop cards that would have to be in your starting hand to have a complete dud is higher.
About mentioning University, well at that moment I was struggling to envision really good stop cards that happened to not be trashers, handsize reducers like Artisan, or attacks like Goons or Mountebank that alter to stop card capacity or the number of stop cards. Looking at my card ranking list, most of the stop cards that are considered powerhouses tend to be attacks or use up cards in hand in some way like Butcher and Count. In the scenarios I envision where stop card capacity is actually relevant, University is pretty powerful because of its gain and relevance for 3-pile endings and gain-and-play. Still, I can easily swap in Haggler in its place.
faust:
--- Quote from: markusin on March 29, 2018, 07:42:41 am ---
--- Quote from: faust on March 29, 2018, 03:52:58 am ---This is a good topic to explore!
I think it would be nice to add a section on how duration draw compares to regular draw, because as defined in the article, regular (terminal) draw is always superior to duration draw in terms of SCC (that is because you defined it not looking at actions). So some clarification would be helpful I imagine.
Another minor nitpick is the list of "potentially important stop cards". Why is University there? I get the basic cards references because well they are in every game, and Bridge is a good example of an explosive card, but Uni is neither particularly strong nor basic. Maybe the idea is to illustrate that even +actions can be stop cards? Then maybe it is better to explicitly state so, as otherwise newer players might be led to believe that Uni is on par with Bridge in terms of strength.
--- End quote ---
Yeah it seems I need to clarify the difference between terminal draw and duration draw. Non-duration terminal draw does not influence SCC because, if you drew your deck last turm, then there is a chance you start your turn with 5 stop cards and have a complete dud before you find any of that draw, or that you see 5 stop cards before you find any handsize increasing draw. For example, you have 4 stop cards and a Market, and then the Market finds a 5th stop card before it finds a Lab. Yes in practice this is unlikely in most cases with a deck stuffed with draw, but it is still technically possible. With duration draw, the number of stop cards that would have to be in your starting hand to have a complete dud is higher.
--- End quote ---
That makes sense, but it doesn't seem to fit this bit:
--- Quote from: markusin on March 28, 2018, 12:38:37 pm ---And then there's Wharf, which isn't even a stop card the turn you play it and thus having the same net effect on SCC as Haunted Woods. By this measure, Wharf is busted strong.
--- End quote ---
If I understand correctly, the terminal draw part of Wharf should not matter for SCC and thus it would not have the same net effect as Haunted Woods.
markusin:
--- Quote from: faust on March 29, 2018, 07:50:13 am ---
--- Quote from: markusin on March 29, 2018, 07:42:41 am ---
--- Quote from: faust on March 29, 2018, 03:52:58 am ---This is a good topic to explore!
I think it would be nice to add a section on how duration draw compares to regular draw, because as defined in the article, regular (terminal) draw is always superior to duration draw in terms of SCC (that is because you defined it not looking at actions). So some clarification would be helpful I imagine.
Another minor nitpick is the list of "potentially important stop cards". Why is University there? I get the basic cards references because well they are in every game, and Bridge is a good example of an explosive card, but Uni is neither particularly strong nor basic. Maybe the idea is to illustrate that even +actions can be stop cards? Then maybe it is better to explicitly state so, as otherwise newer players might be led to believe that Uni is on par with Bridge in terms of strength.
--- End quote ---
Yeah it seems I need to clarify the difference between terminal draw and duration draw. Non-duration terminal draw does not influence SCC because, if you drew your deck last turm, then there is a chance you start your turn with 5 stop cards and have a complete dud before you find any of that draw, or that you see 5 stop cards before you find any handsize increasing draw. For example, you have 4 stop cards and a Market, and then the Market finds a 5th stop card before it finds a Lab. Yes in practice this is unlikely in most cases with a deck stuffed with draw, but it is still technically possible. With duration draw, the number of stop cards that would have to be in your starting hand to have a complete dud is higher.
--- End quote ---
That makes sense, but it doesn't seem to fit this bit:
--- Quote from: markusin on March 28, 2018, 12:38:37 pm ---And then there's Wharf, which isn't even a stop card the turn you play it and thus having the same net effect on SCC as Haunted Woods. By this measure, Wharf is busted strong.
--- End quote ---
If I understand correctly, the terminal draw part of Wharf should not matter for SCC and thus it would not have the same net effect as Haunted Woods.
--- End quote ---
What I mean there is that Wharf increases your starting hand to 7 with the other Wharf not being a stop card, while Haunted Woods increases it to 8 but with the other Haunted Woods being a stop card. Effectively, you can add two extra stop cards without fear of a dud whether you use Wharf for terminal draw or Haunted Woods. In this case, the dud with Wharf would require you do not find the Wharf in your 7 starting cards, but you can dud with Haunted Woods if the other one is one of your 8 starting cards.
So by net effect, I mean how many extra stop cards you can add to your deck before you risk a starting hand of all stop cards. For a deck alternating two Wharves or two Haunted Woods, this number is 2.
Edit: and for Ghost Town it would be zero if you are just alternating between two of them without buying more. People say how Ghost Town's handsize increase is offset by other Ghost Towns being stop cards. The definition of stop card capacity I give here is my attempt at quantifying that idea somehow.
Fuu:
"A "stop card" is any card that doesn't draw a card from your deck and doesn't reduce your handsize when played, and includes Throne Room variants."
Is this a typo? I think you mean "increase", otherwise e.g. treasures would not be considered stop cards.
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