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Author Topic: Shuffle Definition  (Read 85085 times)

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DStu

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #200 on: February 29, 2012, 04:32:47 am »
0

Pile shuffling does not randomize the cards.  It introduces exactly zero randomness, and maintains a significant amount of information even from round to round.  I may be wrong, but I seem to recall that for N cards piled into M piles, as long as N mod M = 0, there is some number X of pile shuffles for which the original arrangement of cards will be reproduced, with that X related somehow to N/M.

That there is a X is quite clear, you even don't need N mod M = 0.

There are only finite many permutations, so there must be a cycle. As pile shuffling is invertible (even if N mod M != 0), the cycle must return to the starting point, otherwise you would have one permutations which is the image of at least two pile shufflings, which contradicts the invertablilty.

That something like N/M plays a role I can believe, but I don't know how to show it atm...
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Davio

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #201 on: February 29, 2012, 08:40:23 am »
+1

I wonder how many pages it takes before Godwin's law is proved.

I was amazed at seeing this topic go beyond 3 pages. I mean, how many can there be said about shuffling?

If you're that frustrated about opponents either shuffling not good enough or too rigorously then go play another game without cards. It keeps suprising me that people take a game and almost make a religion out of it. I'm not against competitive play, but come on people, it's still a game.
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DStu

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #202 on: February 29, 2012, 09:13:27 am »
+1

I wonder how many pages it takes before Godwin's law is proved.

I always thought Godwin's law was not valid on this site.

If I remember it correctly, we even discussed point counters without triggering it.
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Ozle

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #203 on: February 29, 2012, 09:23:33 am »
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Why would it not be valid?
And it came close with the shooting people!
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #204 on: February 29, 2012, 09:25:54 am »
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I wonder how many pages it takes before Godwin's law is proved.

I was amazed at seeing this topic go beyond 3 pages. I mean, how many can there be said about shuffling?

If you're that frustrated about opponents either shuffling not good enough or too rigorously then go play another game without cards. It keeps suprising me that people take a game and almost make a religion out of it. I'm not against competitive play, but come on people, it's still a game.

You can never prove anything by example. Having said that...
What are you, a Godwin's Law Nazi? ;)

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DStu

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #207 on: February 29, 2012, 10:19:12 am »
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Quote
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=de&source=hp&q=site:forum.dominionstrategy.com+hitler&psj=1&oq=site:forum.dominionstrategy.com+hitler&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=3&gs_upl=23562l24288l2l24452l6l6l0l0l0l0l55l243l5l5l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=5afa2de0a5b9e1ab&biw=1369&bih=954

Just takes me to google homepage

If you google site:forum.dominionstrategy.com for "hitler" you will find 0 results (or this post...), and if you google it for "nazi" you will only find results that don't qualify for Godwin's law...
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 12:48:31 pm by theory »
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theory

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #209 on: February 29, 2012, 12:48:14 pm »
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I'd be pretty upset if this meta-Godwin counts for Godwin and snaps our no-Godwin streak :)
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jonts26

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #210 on: February 29, 2012, 01:40:54 pm »
+2

There should be a law stating that any argument which goes on long enough without invoking Godwin's Law will point out that Godwin's Law has not yet been invoked.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #211 on: February 29, 2012, 01:47:10 pm »
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There should be a law stating that any argument which goes on long enough without invoking Godwin's Law will point out that Godwin's Law has not yet been invoked.
Done. jonts26's law.

Kirian

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #212 on: February 29, 2012, 01:47:55 pm »
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I'd be pretty upset if this meta-Godwin counts for Godwin and snaps our no-Godwin streak :)

Nope.  Quirk's Exception applies here, at least in part.  Also, a discussion about Godwin's Law isn't a discussion about Nazis per se, and therefore not a direct invocation of Godwin's Law.
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Taco Lobster

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #213 on: February 29, 2012, 01:58:44 pm »
+2

You know who else used to rely on Quirk's Exception to avoid Godwin's Law?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #214 on: February 29, 2012, 02:39:38 pm »
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I'd be very interested to hear from one of our competitive Magic players on how the MtG community handles shuffling.

Though it's not competitive, my friends that I play with (and sometimes I as well) will separate all the lands out and place them throughout the deck before shuffling to try and "help" the shuffle to not keep lands clumped together. After reading this thread, I now think that's cheating.
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Kirian

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #215 on: February 29, 2012, 02:49:05 pm »
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You know who else used to rely on Quirk's Exception to avoid Godwin's Law?

You know, I came so close to going with a "You know who else..." in my post...
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Taco Lobster

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #216 on: February 29, 2012, 03:44:29 pm »
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You know who else used to rely on Quirk's Exception to avoid Godwin's Law?

You know, I came so close to going with a "You know who else..." in my post...

You know who else came so close to going with a "You know who else" in their post...

[Sorry, couldn't help myself]
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Taco Lobster

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Re: Shuffle Definition
« Reply #217 on: February 29, 2012, 03:45:03 pm »
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I'd be very interested to hear from one of our competitive Magic players on how the MtG community handles shuffling.

Though it's not competitive, my friends that I play with (and sometimes I as well) will separate all the lands out and place them throughout the deck before shuffling to try and "help" the shuffle to not keep lands clumped together. After reading this thread, I now think that's cheating.

And with this, my failure on the topic of shuffling is complete.   ;)
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