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[Vyxx]

Okay so whenever there are trashing cards available I generally win in our group; I'm good at making efficient small decks that have huge turns.  I generally play with 4 to 6 people.

As soon as you introduce curse givers I'm totally lost, what's the best general theory to counter them in a larger group, other than "If you can't beat'em join'em".  I saw someone post "best thing to do is build a fast deck" - what does that mean, and is that best?

Should I be taking coppers with extra buys to try and dilute the curses?  Should I attempt to trash them out of the deck if there's 1 player playing witches (and the like)?  2 Players?  3 Players?  The only viable strategy I see is  Gardens strategy where you only need $4 for a garden anyway and each extra curse you gain, "helps" and picking up extra coppers with extra buys also help, but Gardens is rarely out.

Help!  Thanks

[jsh357]

If you're playing 4 to 6 people, unless you have a guaranteed way to play ignoring Curses for the most part (Vault, Watchtower, something) I'd suggest, after getting a Curser of your own, getting some money and then not hesitating to go for Duchies early, maybe even as soon as after the third reshuffle.  It's not too hard to pile out the game on Duchy/Curse/X in this situation, especially if there's a cheap card like Hamlet that everyone's going to go for.  If your deck can reach $5 regularly in a Curse-heavy game, you're in a great position as long as everyone else is suffering the same attacks as you.

I'm not sure about going for the extra Coppers, depends on the board.  It's not a bad idea late-game, though, in my experience.

[Vyxx]

Thanks for the reply, I gather duchy's is key and I'd thought of that, just wasn't sure when to start aiming for them.

[Jorbles]

While there are some situations where you can ignore or workaround cursers, they don't always exist. If a Young Witch has a strong bane card (Fishing Village/Scheme/a few others) you can successfully ignore it. Horse Traders means you still take the Curse, but sometimes you can get a 6 card hand out of it and you can discard the Curses for money. Cards like Venture, Farming Village, Cartographer, let you manage the Curses that are in your deck better, but on some boards you just can't ignore the Cursing attacks and the dominant strategy on those boards is to just make sure you Curse your opponents more than they Curse you (most IGG/Witch/Familiar/Mountebank/Sea Hag games).

There are exceptions, but they are really fast games. Boards with Embassy, and sometimes Vault lead to this situation sometimes, Ironworks with Gardens or Silk Road too. The only other possibility I can think of is a game where you need Lighthouses for an engine and can play them reliably every turn. But—and this is a big but—you're still usually better off to Curse your opponent and incorporate cursing attacks into your strategy. If there's a strategy on the board that can get you your share of Provinces in 12 turns or less even though you're getting Cursed then you can probably ignore Curses, but there aren't many of those.

As jsh357 points out in big games you can sometimes sneak in on the Duchies early for a three pile ending, but if the people you're playing against are smart they'll probably be doing it too and cursing you beforehand.

[Kirian]

Somehow not mentioned yet:  Ambassador and Masquerade are extremely strong counters against cursers, because they can essentially reflect the Curse cards (though not an immediate reflection.  I will almost always ignore cursers if these cards are on the board, barring some special reason to get them anyway (e.g. Young Witch/Tunnel).

Masquerade is especially strong against Sea Hag.  You have a high chance of reflecting the Sea Hag's curse in the second shuffle if your opponent opens Sea Hag.

[Jorbles]

Forgot about those, thanks Kirian.

[blueblimp]

There's some weird game theory with cursers in a 4-player game. If just one player is dishing out curses, that player is at a big advantage, since that player will receive 0 curses and all other players will receive 10. But if 3 players are dealing curses, then on average each of those players will receive about 6.7 curses and the 4th player will receive 10: so maybe the 4th player is actually at an advantage going for a different strategy.

I've never played a competitive 4-player game of Dominion (just casually), so I don't know how this would settle out with good players. With 6 players, the situation would be even stranger: if 5 players are cursing and 1 player isn't, the cursers receive an average of 8 curses each and the other player 10, so there's barely any difference whether you curse or not.

[Jorbles]

There's some weird game theory with cursers in a 4-player game. If just one player is dishing out curses, that player is at a big advantage, since that player will receive 0 curses and all other players will receive 10. But if 3 players are dealing curses, then on average each of those players will receive about 6.7 curses and the 4th player will receive 10: so maybe the 4th player is actually at an advantage going for a different strategy.

I've never played a competitive 4-player game of Dominion (just casually), so I don't know how this would settle out with good players. With 6 players, the situation would be even stranger: if 5 players are cursing and 1 player isn't, the cursers receive an average of 8 curses each and the other player 10, so there's barely any difference whether you curse or not.

Isn't that 3+ curse difference fairly significant? (in the four player example) That's 3 dead cards and a Duchy of points to overcome that the 4th player will have that his opponents will not.

[blueblimp]

There's some weird game theory with cursers in a 4-player game. If just one player is dishing out curses, that player is at a big advantage, since that player will receive 0 curses and all other players will receive 10. But if 3 players are dealing curses, then on average each of those players will receive about 6.7 curses and the 4th player will receive 10: so maybe the 4th player is actually at an advantage going for a different strategy.

I've never played a competitive 4-player game of Dominion (just casually), so I don't know how this would settle out with good players. With 6 players, the situation would be even stranger: if 5 players are cursing and 1 player isn't, the cursers receive an average of 8 curses each and the other player 10, so there's barely any difference whether you curse or not.

Isn't that 3+ curse difference fairly significant? (in the four player example) That's 3 dead cards and a Duchy of points to overcome that the 4th player will have that his opponents will not.

You may be right, but in some situations, skipping the curser might allow for some card that overcomes the difference. For example, if all the other players get a Witch, maybe it's good to get an Upgrade, since that seems likely to clear a bunch of dead cards before the game ends. In 2-player, I think I'd prefer the Witch, because it's important to force my opponent to deal with curses.

[Ozle]

There's some weird game theory with cursers in a 4-player game. If just one player is dishing out curses, that player is at a big advantage, since that player will receive 0 curses and all other players will receive 10. But if 3 players are dealing curses, then on average each of those players will receive about 6.7 curses and the 4th player will receive 10: so maybe the 4th player is actually at an advantage going for a different strategy.

I've never played a competitive 4-player game of Dominion (just casually), so I don't know how this would settle out with good players. With 6 players, the situation would be even stranger: if 5 players are cursing and 1 player isn't, the cursers receive an average of 8 curses each and the other player 10, so there's barely any difference whether you curse or not.

Isn't that 3+ curse difference fairly significant? (in the four player example) That's 3 dead cards and a Duchy of points to overcome that the 4th player will have that his opponents will not.

I play a lot of face to face 3-4 player games and this is spot on. If three or more people are cursing, go for something that deals with curses (trashers or Masq, Masq rules for this. I also quite like Trading Post or remodel if there are good 2's)

By the end of the game you'll probably have the same amount of curses as the others, give or take one or two, but you will have spent extra turns building up your economy, especially if you go for the card drawing instead (things like Warehouse are cheap and cycle them away)

If no one or one player is cursing in a big match...go for the curses as quick as you can.

[Vyxx]

I play a lot of face to face 3-4 player games and this is spot on. If three or more people are cursing, go for something that deals with curses (trashers or Masq, Masq rules for this. I also quite like Trading Post or remodel if there are good 2's)

By the end of the game you'll probably have the same amount of curses as the others, give or take one or two, but you will have spent extra turns building up your economy, especially if you go for the card drawing instead (things like Warehouse are cheap and cycle them away)

If no one or one player is cursing in a big match...go for the curses as quick as you can.

This is the sort of things I'm looking for, extremely helpful!!  In some ways seems like an advantage to go last in large groups, since it might give you a read on which way to go.

[Ozle]

It might seem like a bonus to go last....but it isnt!
Playing last in a 4player + game is terrible, because there are three people out there playing cards before you, which means you have the chance to get hit with 3 attacks before your turn, plus the good cards have more chance to be gone before they get round to you (this includes the provinces)

The benefit you get from seeing what other people are planning is massively outwieghed by this.


Also, on another slightly unrelated note one of my favourite things to do multiplayer is have Torturers and Masq with some +actions. Hit them with the torturer first...and then the Masq, they discard down to 3 good cards, and then a good card gets passed around the table, messes up everyones strategies. (Especially if you sometimes follow it up with a second torturer instead of the Masq)


Disclaimer: Im only a novice compared with a lot of the people here though, so take my advice lightly!

[AJD]

Also, on another slightly unrelated note one of my favourite things to do multiplayer is have Torturers and Masq with some +actions. Hit them with the torturer first...and then the Masq, they discard down to 3 good cards, and then a good card gets passed around the table, messes up everyones strategies.

If they have reason to expect you're going to do this, they'll just take the Curse from Torturer and pass that around instead. The best discard attack to pull this stunt with is Margrave.

[Ozle]

Also, on another slightly unrelated note one of my favourite things to do multiplayer is have Torturers and Masq with some +actions. Hit them with the torturer first...and then the Masq, they discard down to 3 good cards, and then a good card gets passed around the table, messes up everyones strategies.

If they have reason to expect you're going to do this, they'll just take the Curse from Torturer and pass that around instead. The best discard attack to pull this stunt with is Margrave.

That's the beauty though, they live in fear of that second attack even if it doesn't happen that often, sometimes I'll follow up with second torturer instead!

[DG]

As pointed out above, dealing out curses in multi player games is not much protection for your own deck so clearing up or protecting your deck can be more important. You need to look at the flow of the game and see what the other players are up to when deciding your best plan.

As you enter the mid game you need to make an assessment of your curse filled deck. Can it be recovered and buy provinces or should you aim for cheaper vp? With the curse pile going you just need two more piles to empty for a quick finish with both duchy and estate always available. If you're planning to buy nothing more expensive than a duchy then adding copper to the deck becomes viable.

[dan11295]

multi-player curse games w/no trashing have been a problem for me as well. Will have to give the duchy strategy a try.

[jomini]

Methods of dealing with cursing attacks:
1. Give them out first. With rare exception, a curse your opponent gives is unlikely to end up in your deck. This is always an option and sometimes the most effective option is to win the curse war.
2. Trash them. This can be done with simple trashers like chapel or with reactions like traders or watchtower. One fun thing with reactions is to remember that you can do this on your turn. E.g. your opponent has 2 witches to your one but you've just played hamlet/witch and have 6 coin and a watchtower in hand. Top deck the gold, buy a curse & trash it.
3. Jump past them. Farming village, venture, adventurer, etc. can mitigate curse troubles by ensuring that most of the time the curses go straight from your deck to the discard. Hunting party and golem can be particularly effective here. Cards that let you play with top of your deck like spy, duchess, and cartographer all move curses from deck to discard with no trouble.
4. Discard for benefit. Vault is the big one ensuring that even the most curse laden hand is a gold. Cellar, secret chamber, young witch, inn, etc. can all make good use of discards and curses matter less.
5. Hide them. Island, native village, and haven all allow you to see curses less or even never again.
6. Play a top deck game control game. Here you let the curse into your discard and make sure that the cards you get in hand rarely have a curse attached. For instance, KC/KC/scheme/scheme/monument/monument sits on the top of your deck, buys a bunch of green and scores massive points each turn without ever worrying about the bottom half of the deck. Likewise some setups of royal seal, develop, and watchtower can leave you playing mostly off the top of the deck. A harder trick is inn abuse. Near the end of each shuffle, acquire an inn and pull all your actions out of the discard into your deck. With some setups (e.g. highway/IW) you can never draw a curse for 12 hands.
7. Embrace the bloat. Gardens is the big player here. Mitigate or overcome the penalty with lots of gardens & huge decks. As a bonus you only need to deplete gardens, curses, and estates to win. Philosopher's stone is another possible plan as big bloated curse decks = huge payout stones which can lead to double province turns fairly easily.
8. Reflect them. Ambassador & masquerade let you give the curses to your opponents & do something useful for you.
9. Prevent them - moat and lighthouse mean you can try to keep from receiving them in the first place. Having a deadish card in your hand like moat or lighthouse can be bad as their effects are not that great for the price of an action. On the other hand they can save you a lot more dead cards later and can be insanely effective in multiplayer games or multi-attack games.
10. Play the odds to win first. Take something simple like witch, treasure map, and pawn. Your opponents open witch/pawn and you have a 4/3. Your odds of winning are pretty lousy if you go for witch yourself, however going for treasure maps can allow you to have some odds of hitting 4 golds early and pushing out quick points/cash before the curses drown you. Remember the best move is whatever improves YOUR odds the most. Even if a curse giver is strictly better than some other combo; your odds of coming from behind in a mirror can be pretty low.

So feel free to mix & match, but I believe this every possible way of dealing with curses currently supported. There are many ways of beating the cursers; just use what you can when you can.