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Author Topic: Good day for me, or bad for him?  (Read 6214 times)

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tolenmar

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Good day for me, or bad for him?
« on: September 12, 2013, 09:15:43 am »
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http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130911/log.50c7ef2fe4b01531d0686840.1378959720943.txt#Game%20Setup

I'm one of those people who has a rough time playing the bots.  Really. Most of the time they just make me feel stupid, and I don't understand how I lost so quickly and early. When I do win (and it isn't often), the scores are much closer together.

Last night, I played against Conqueror bot. I beat him by more than 2 to 1.  This is not normal.  So, I figured I would ask here for advice.  Was I having a really good day? Or was Conqueror just having a bad one? and why?

What did I do right, what could I have done better?
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flies

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Re: Good day for me, or bad for him?
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2013, 10:25:17 am »
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bishop is not (in general) a good opener.  The points you get trashing estates and copper are few, the trashing is slow, and it doesn't help your economy (at best a terminal copper trashing an estate) - all that plus your opponent benefits from the trashing nearly as much as you.

turn 10 it made a terrible play chooosing a second YW over swindler when it "knew" you had a bane in hand.

turn 11 it trashed its last silver leaving only bandit camp, swindler and two coppers as its only source of $.  (the bots do not play remake well.)  It should not have been loading up on young witch as you aggressively pursued mercenary - cards like YW or warehouse don't work well with discard attacks.

turn 12 you played swindler before mercenary, which is a mistake since actions you draw with mercenary are drawn dead. 

turn 14 it discarded two estates for buys it didn't use instead of remaking them into silver.

turn 15 it trashed YW for duchy - WAY too early for duchies, though it's hard to tell where the piles are at this point.  the game lasted 39 (!) turns, so

turn 16 you gained a third mercenary despite the fact that you have very little left to trash.

There's no reason this game should go on 39 turns.  No games should go on that long (with few exceptions).  Basically, I'd buy villages and some margraves (~3) and some money.  Village/smithy type engines can be a bit fussy, but when the draw is margrave, which has the militia effect built-in, you have more time to set it up.  Swindler is strong here: spoils -> curse, gold -> farmland, and hamlet -> estate, a bunch of important 5's you can turn into duchy early or, later, mystic, which is generally weak.  Fortune teller is an attractive target for your opponent's silvers. 

The extension that allows you to set the cards in the kingdom isn't working with YW, so I haven't been able to provide a perfect example of how I'd play this, but here's me playing the kingdom w/o YW: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130912/log.5075b25251c30da02a09b898.1378995212599.txt I don't think I played optimally here (too many hamlets, not enough silver/swindler), but it's something to compare to.  The bot really spammed swindlers to good effect.  I picked up the bishop to deal with the junk. 
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 10:26:40 am by flies »
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tolenmar

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Re: Good day for me, or bad for him?
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2013, 10:32:23 am »
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It went to turn 39 because I kept hoping I could get that last province. I finally gave up and ended it with that last duchy instead.  I thought it was going on too long, too.

Usually, if I ignore Bishop (or Monument) the bots leave me behind on points by a huge margin.  I thought I was being pro-active (or at least staying close to even).  I didn't realize until halfway through that he was ignoring them.
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flies

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Re: Good day for me, or bad for him?
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2013, 10:40:48 am »
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i went heavier on the swindlers this time with a more commanding lead: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130912/log.5075b25251c30da02a09b898.1378996710313.txt

Yeah, tolen, I'd say the main thing you did wrong was ignoring margrave.  It's a strong attack with buy and draw.  It's very useful in most decks.
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flies

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Re: Good day for me, or bad for him?
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2013, 10:45:34 am »
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It went to turn 39 because I kept hoping I could get that last province.
If all you want is to win and you have a strong lead, you should end the game as soon as you can. 

If you wanted more provinces, a few golds would probably have helped.  You had very, very little treasure (besides bandit camps, which do provide spoils, but usually you want one or two golds).
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tolenmar

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Re: Good day for me, or bad for him?
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2013, 10:52:19 am »
+1

I don't get to piledrive the provinces often. I was being greedy.
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flies

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Re: Good day for me, or bad for him?
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2013, 11:07:49 am »
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ain't nothin wrong with that!  sometimes you want more than to simply win.  (playing against humans it's kinda... sadistic to draw out a game where you're clearly winning, but against bots this is obviously not a concern.)
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 11:09:08 am by flies »
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Gotta be efficient when most of your hand coordination is spent trying to apply mascara to your beard.
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tolenmar

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Re: Good day for me, or bad for him?
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2013, 11:14:59 am »
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Sometimes.  I used the extension a couple weeks ago to set up the masquerade pin, and then played it out until I had reduced all piles to 1 card, just because I could, and it was only a bot.  Well, that, and I wanted to see what would happen to my rating if I did.
(Short answer, not much, could've ended it sooner for all the difference it made.)
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flies

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Re: Good day for me, or bad for him?
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2013, 11:28:48 am »
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this is a fun kingdom.  http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130912/log.5075b25251c30da02a09b898.1378998833484.txt

3P beaten by swindler barrage - failing to get a second margrave was a mistake as well. http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130912/log.5075b25251c30da02a09b898.1378999227524.txt
another 3P.  this time i got the 2nd margrave.  swindler is still brutal, but I pulled thru.  http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130912/log.5075b25251c30da02a09b898.1378999640899.txt

I'd guess that nobody is intrested in these.  I have too much time on my hands...
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Gotta be efficient when most of your hand coordination is spent trying to apply mascara to your beard.
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tolenmar

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Re: Good day for me, or bad for him?
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2013, 11:38:42 am »
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my problem with logs is that I have a hard time following them.  Even when I was learning chess, I couldnt follow the examples. If you had videos of those games, I'd check them out.
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flies

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Re: Good day for me, or bad for him?
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2013, 11:47:57 am »
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i'm trying to get some videos up, actually.  can't make one just at the moment.
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Awaclus

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Re: Good day for me, or bad for him?
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2013, 11:49:55 am »
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bishop is not (in general) a good opener.  The points you get trashing estates and copper are few, the trashing is slow, and it doesn't help your economy (at best a terminal copper trashing an estate) - all that plus your opponent benefits from the trashing nearly as much as you.
Usually he benefits from the trashing more than you - he gets to choose from five cards, you get to choose from one card.
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ftl

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Re: Good day for me, or bad for him?
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2013, 11:53:29 am »
+1

Sometimes.  I used the extension a couple weeks ago to set up the masquerade pin, and then played it out until I had reduced all piles to 1 card, just because I could, and it was only a bot.  Well, that, and I wanted to see what would happen to my rating if I did.
(Short answer, not much, could've ended it sooner for all the difference it made.)

What happened to your rating is the same thing that happens with any win. The score or the amount you win by doesn't affect anything, all wins are counted the same and all losses are the same.
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tolenmar

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Re: Good day for me, or bad for him?
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2013, 12:02:33 pm »
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I'm not so sure about that.  I mean sometimes my rating changes by 150, and sometimes by 0 or 15.  So I thought if I finished with a ginormous lead, I might get a bit more than usual.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Good day for me, or bad for him?
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2013, 12:22:37 pm »
+1

I'm not so sure about that.  I mean sometimes my rating changes by 150, and sometimes by 0 or 15.  So I thought if I finished with a ginormous lead, I might get a bit more than usual.

That's based on the ratings of you and your opponents.
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DG

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Re: Good day for me, or bad for him?
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2013, 01:35:34 pm »
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Quote
I mean sometimes my rating changes by 150, and sometimes by 0 or 15.  So I thought if I finished with a ginormous lead, I might get a bit more than usual.

That's because Goko gets it wrong. It quite often gives zero points and sometimes even gives a negative change for a win.
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StrongRhino

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Re: Good day for me, or bad for him?
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2013, 03:51:41 pm »
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It's because the rating system they use is too complicated to put in a formula.
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