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[pingpongsam]

Assuming a hidden vote is that always a scum power?

[pingpongsam]

Btw, Gus Fring (ie schadd's partner) having a secret vote makes a lot of flavor sense. Mike having one ? Not so much... but it could be QT-controlled by the faction as a whole I guess. Still don't know why schadd would want to self-hammer though.

Or why schadd’s partner would hammer.

It certainly seems unnecessary unless for cred. I'd think a partner at that point would have tried deflecting. Thing is, it was Sunday and hardly anyone was around much at all that weekend. It certainly looks more like it was a shot to take advantage of that fact. Apparently, there are multiple factions so I think the partner bussing theory is the weakest one. The part I am struggling with is why it has to be a scum orchestration at all. I suppose if ash pulled the trigger that is more likely but overall it seems a poor conclusion to form at this point.

[gkrieg13]

vote: gkrieg13

?

Trying to grab a towncred for lynching scum who as well may not be in your team, trying to open wagon on me and the question if I know for sure or base on flavor seemed insincere

The first two were a joke, I don't think my wagon on schadd should give me any credit, considering it was total RVS.  Then getting the wagon going on you was also a joke, because of the joke that it worked the first time.

The second one is because I feel like I missed something.  Do you know that there are only three factions in the game?  Do you know anything about their sizes? 

I mean really the only thing we can get from that schadd wagon is that scum were probably fine getting on it, and they are also probably the ones casting the secret vote (I don't think schadd would give that away for his teammate, or else his teammate would be very mad), so ash is a little bit scummy for looking for a quicklynch.

vote: ash

Wow, what a conclusion jump. First of all why must there be an extra vote? Second, why does ash have the be the one just because he went last? If there is an extra vote it could be from any one on or apparently off wagon. This seems overly presumptuous if not preplanned.

I mean we have less than a page to go off of, so whatever conclusion I had would've been jumped to.

Of course, why should we discuss the possibilities when we can act with certainty and implicate people outright based on this certainty?

I felt like it was more likely that there was a hidden vote given the explanation from schadd.  I actually didn't really consider hated.

[Witherweaver]

vote: gkrieg13

?

Trying to grab a towncred for lynching scum who as well may not be in your team, trying to open wagon on me and the question if I know for sure or base on flavor seemed insincere

The first two were a joke, I don't think my wagon on schadd should give me any credit, considering it was total RVS.  Then getting the wagon going on you was also a joke, because of the joke that it worked the first time.

The second one is because I feel like I missed something.  Do you know that there are only three factions in the game?  Do you know anything about their sizes? 

I mean really the only thing we can get from that schadd wagon is that scum were probably fine getting on it, and they are also probably the ones casting the secret vote (I don't think schadd would give that away for his teammate, or else his teammate would be very mad), so ash is a little bit scummy for looking for a quicklynch.

vote: ash

Wow, what a conclusion jump. First of all why must there be an extra vote? Second, why does ash have the be the one just because he went last? If there is an extra vote it could be from any one on or apparently off wagon. This seems overly presumptuous if not preplanned.

I mean we have less than a page to go off of, so whatever conclusion I had would've been jumped to.

Of course, why should we discuss the possibilities when we can act with certainty and implicate people outright based on this certainty?

This is a weird position to take.

[Witherweaver]

Btw, Gus Fring (ie schadd's partner) having a secret vote makes a lot of flavor sense. Mike having one ? Not so much... but it could be QT-controlled by the faction as a whole I guess. Still don't know why schadd would want to self-hammer though.

Or why schadd’s partner would hammer.

It certainly seems unnecessary unless for cred. I'd think a partner at that point would have tried deflecting. Thing is, it was Sunday and hardly anyone was around much at all that weekend. It certainly looks more like it was a shot to take advantage of that fact. Apparently, there are multiple factions so I think the partner bussing theory is the weakest one. The part I am struggling with is why it has to be a scum orchestration at all. I suppose if ash pulled the trigger that is more likely but overall it seems a poor conclusion to form at this point.

I'd say that if scum knows they're in multiball, then they are more likely to do it (because they could be lynching 'scum' of the other faction). If they don't, then they're less likely to do it, because they'll assume it's a mislynch and thus antitown.

[gkrieg13]

Btw, Gus Fring (ie schadd's partner) having a secret vote makes a lot of flavor sense. Mike having one ? Not so much... but it could be QT-controlled by the faction as a whole I guess. Still don't know why schadd would want to self-hammer though.

Or why schadd’s partner would hammer.

It certainly seems unnecessary unless for cred. I'd think a partner at that point would have tried deflecting. Thing is, it was Sunday and hardly anyone was around much at all that weekend. It certainly looks more like it was a shot to take advantage of that fact. Apparently, there are multiple factions so I think the partner bussing theory is the weakest one. The part I am struggling with is why it has to be a scum orchestration at all. I suppose if ash pulled the trigger that is more likely but overall it seems a poor conclusion to form at this point.

But if you had a hidden vote, and schadd had been town, we would be starting the day with 2 fewer town and no information, so it would probably be worth it to do as mafia, and you can say that you weren't the one to lynch them because it was a hidden vote.

And scum probably didn't know about the other scum faction.

So ash is scummy for putting schadd to L-1 so early.

[ashersky]

Because I would have any reason to assume this hidden vote thing?

I even announced the L-1.  That’s nowhere near scummy.  About as scummy as you starting a random wagon on schadd with zero reason provided.

[Teproc]

gkrieg, in what scenario does town!ash NOT put someone at L-1 five hours into day 1 (I didn't actually check the time) ? You might not like it, but that's just what ash does. Yes, it's possible he did it because he controlled a hidden vote and could use his town meta to protect him, but, well, his town meta does protect him there.

It does seem likely that the hidden vote was from Juarez, which... I guess it's possible that both scum factions have a hidden vote ?

[JaketheBaseballGod22]

Because I would have any reason to assume this hidden vote thing?

I even announced the L-1.  That’s nowhere near scummy.  About as scummy as you starting a random wagon on schadd with zero reason provided.

Agree with second part

[gkrieg13]

gkrieg, in what scenario does town!ash NOT put someone at L-1 five hours into day 1 (I didn't actually check the time) ? You might not like it, but that's just what ash does. Yes, it's possible he did it because he controlled a hidden vote and could use his town meta to protect him, but, well, his town meta does protect him there.

It does seem likely that the hidden vote was from Juarez, which... I guess it's possible that both scum factions have a hidden vote ?

I'm just saying that scum!ash does it 100% of the time, and that there is a chance that town!ash doesn't.  I'm not saying that it is conclusive evidence or anything.

[Teproc]

gkrieg, in what scenario does town!ash NOT put someone at L-1 five hours into day 1 (I didn't actually check the time) ? You might not like it, but that's just what ash does. Yes, it's possible he did it because he controlled a hidden vote and could use his town meta to protect him, but, well, his town meta does protect him there.

It does seem likely that the hidden vote was from Juarez, which... I guess it's possible that both scum factions have a hidden vote ?

I'm just saying that scum!ash does it 100% of the time, and that there is a chance that town!ash doesn't.  I'm not saying that it is conclusive evidence or anything.

Fair enough.

[ashersky]

gkrieg, in what scenario does town!ash NOT put someone at L-1 five hours into day 1 (I didn't actually check the time) ? You might not like it, but that's just what ash does. Yes, it's possible he did it because he controlled a hidden vote and could use his town meta to protect him, but, well, his town meta does protect him there.

It does seem likely that the hidden vote was from Juarez, which... I guess it's possible that both scum factions have a hidden vote ?

I'm just saying that scum!ash does it 100% of the time, and that there is a chance that town!ash doesn't.  I'm not saying that it is conclusive evidence or anything.

I’m just saying that scum!gkrieg who had a dayvig power via QT order shoots 100% of the time, and that there is a chance that town!gkrieg doesn’t.  I’m not saying that it is conclusive evidence or anything.

[Witherweaver]

Perfectly valid in every game that has a scum dayvig power via QT order. Voting comes up slightly more often.

[Teproc]

I think this does mean there is at least one scum on-wagon (or among the people who posted D1 at least)... which is not all that indicative given, you know, basic math, but worth keeping in mind for later.

[ashersky]

Perfectly valid in every game that has a scum dayvig power via QT order. Voting comes up slightly more often.

Gkrieg is calling the L-1 scummy based on information we have in hindsight.  That’s disingenuous given I had no reason to think the L-1 would result in anything other than some discussion and unvotes.  Which, by the way, was my expectation and reasoning.  I had no reason to suspect schadd of anything.  The voters and non voters were more interesting.

[ashersky]

I mean, if the discussion is “would ashersky place an L-1 vote that results in a quick hammer as scum” then the answer is of course yes.  But so would everyone.  It’s just as valid to argue that hidden double voter gkrieg started a wagon hoping it would run up to L-1 and surprise lynch, or that faust hidden voted when he stated intent to hammer, etc.

I’m getting good reads so far today, though, so that’s good.

[ashersky]

Also, vote: puk.

If schadd has teammates, I think Puk is one of them.  That end of day interaction looked like newbie partner coaching.

[Teproc]

I’m getting good reads so far today, though, so that’s good.

You are ? I'm getting nothing... maybe slight town on gkrieg. Care to share ?

[ashersky]

I’m getting good reads so far today, though, so that’s good.

You are ? I'm getting nothing... maybe slight town on gkrieg. Care to share ?

Sure.  Town on you, Igu, and gkrieg.  Given the assumption of multiball, that is about as far as I want to go with town reads.

I see Puk as scummy, but not reads based so much as interaction (as little as there may have been).  A giant pile of null (which I assume if your problem) on a bunch of quiet folks, but it’s early on basically D1 again, so hopefully it’ll get rolling.

[Teproc]

before i vote i need to ask: schadd, how are your lungs?

That is a weird comment. What was that about, Puk ?

[iguanaiguana]

Assuming a hidden vote is that always a scum power?

If a town used a hidden vote to cut short D1 after only a few hours & pages, then they should definitely claim as much. And they should also claim what sort of N0 result they had on schadd that gave them the confidence to do such a thing, because otherwise that line of play does not make any sense.

If Eevee is double hated, then I think it could make sense that scum would have a hated member to balance Eevee's role; perhaps schadd also had a way to remove hated on himself. That being said, his behavior on getting a huge wagon immediately looks really strange then.

If Lalight is telling the truth about knowing there are two scum factions, then we could very well have had Juarez vote shenanigans used against Pollos!schadd. Cutting short a day when all you know if the person you're lynching is not your partner makes a lot of sense.

[ashersky]

Since I am not supposed to be on the shadd wagon I'll start. I'm a Moat.

What does this mean?

SS, can you answer this?

[ashersky]

Assuming a hidden vote is that always a scum power?

If a town used a hidden vote to cut short D1 after only a few hours & pages, then they should definitely claim as much. And they should also claim what sort of N0 result they had on schadd that gave them the confidence to do such a thing, because otherwise that line of play does not make any sense.

If Eevee is double hated, then I think it could make sense that scum would have a hated member to balance Eevee's role; perhaps schadd also had a way to remove hated on himself. That being said, his behavior on getting a huge wagon immediately looks really strange then.

If Lalight is telling the truth about knowing there are two scum factions, then we could very well have had Juarez vote shenanigans used against Pollos!schadd. Cutting short a day when all you know if the person you're lynching is not your partner makes a lot of sense.

Igu speaks the truths.  Although there are some town players who would risk a crazy D1 early lynch like that.  It’s basically equivalent to a Day Vig, especially if it was one-shot, for example.

[iguanaiguana]

gkrieg, in what scenario does town!ash NOT put someone at L-1 five hours into day 1 (I didn't actually check the time) ? You might not like it, but that's just what ash does. Yes, it's possible he did it because he controlled a hidden vote and could use his town meta to protect him, but, well, his town meta does protect him there.

It does seem likely that the hidden vote was from Juarez, which... I guess it's possible that both scum factions have a hidden vote ?

I'm just saying that scum!ash does it 100% of the time, and that there is a chance that town!ash doesn't.  I'm not saying that it is conclusive evidence or anything.

This is 100% true but shouldn't be considered some town indicative statement from Gkrieg. To use his own logic, Gkrieg makes this observation 100% of the time - town or scum.

What did he say that I missed that is making two top players call him town? I see nothing.

[iguanaiguana]

town players ... crazy

But since PPS was asking the question and not taking credit, and you don't seem to have done it (or did you?) then I don't think so this time.