Topic: Math Nerds... (Read 28864 times)

fp · « **on:** June 24, 2011, 06:09:09 pm »

As one who is mathematically inclined, I cannot help but notice all of the math-related handles both here and on isotropic. Who else is out there?

Graystripe77 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 24, 2011, 06:20:46 pm »

Kirian · « **Reply #2 on:** June 24, 2011, 06:29:04 pm »

Depends on how you define "math nerd." Does "chemistry/physics teacher" count?

Graystripe77 · « **Reply #3 on:** June 24, 2011, 06:30:52 pm »

If your really into it, then probably.

rrenaud · « **Reply #4 on:** June 24, 2011, 06:56:40 pm »

I did a math minor during my undergrad. But as I read more about machine learning and statistics, I am beginning to think I am really a statistician who happens to have nice employment as a software engineer.

guided · « **Reply #5 on:** June 24, 2011, 07:23:17 pm »

I was big into competitive math in high school--ARML, AHSME, captained our state-winning HS math team senior year (GO MUSTANGS)--then went into engineering in college. Which I guess has math in it? but I never even took the Putnam, shame on me.

Sometimes when I'm bored I do combinatorics on dominionstrategy.com

Axe Knight · « **Reply #6 on:** June 24, 2011, 10:54:57 pm »

I was a Mathematical Statistics major who recently passed Actuarial Exam P. I love solving probability problems, and often solve certain things involving Dominion, but have not posted any on this forum because I don't think they're that useful or interesting to anyone but me

. I'm considering grad school. In addition to probability theory, I'm a big fan of classical and functional analysis, though I don't use it quite as much.

If anyone would like to collaborate on any probability articles, be sure to PM me.

ycz6 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 26, 2011, 02:11:44 pm »

I'm in college, majoring in theoretical math right now. Silly engineers and statisticians...

DG · « **Reply #8 on:** June 26, 2011, 02:33:13 pm »

Yes I was a mathematician. I can't remember any of those theorems and proofs nowadays though. Sometimes counting to 8 can be a problem.

Donald X. · « **Reply #9 on:** June 26, 2011, 03:42:48 pm »

I used to give mathematical dance lessons. The square dance, the rhumbus, the cotango... And I know fifty digits of pi, although, not the fifty right after the three.

Graystripe77 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 26, 2011, 03:50:41 pm »

Beat 140 digits of pi

Personman · « **Reply #11 on:** June 26, 2011, 04:09:48 pm »

*whoosh*

But also, http://www.pi-world-ranking-list.com/lists/details/luchao.html

Graystripe77 · « **Reply #12 on:** June 26, 2011, 04:15:21 pm »

Yea, i'll probably never beat that though.

Eric Herboso · « **Reply #13 on:** June 26, 2011, 04:25:58 pm »

Quote from: Donald X. on June 26, 2011, 03:42:48 pm

I know fifty digits of pi, although, not the fifty right after the three.

+1

This is absolutely hilarious. (c:

I never really thought about it before, but I guess I also know fifty digits in pi, though they also aren't anywhere near the beginning of the sequence.

Yariv · « **Reply #14 on:** June 26, 2011, 11:44:49 pm »

I'm just finishing my M.Sc. in Mathematics (Probability), so I guess I would qualify. I know all the digits of Pi, just not sure about the order.

Axe Knight · « **Reply #15 on:** June 27, 2011, 12:12:43 am »

Given the correlation with Math, I wonder how many of us are also music nerds. I'm all three!

Kirian · « **Reply #16 on:** June 27, 2011, 01:14:28 am »

Quote from: Donald X. on June 26, 2011, 03:42:48 pm

I used to give mathematical dance lessons. The square dance, the rhumbus, the cotango... And I know fifty digits of pi, although, not the fifty right after the three.

Where, oh where is the thumbs-up button?

--------

All the math nerds should, if you haven't already, check out Vi Hart's videos.

Geronimoo · « **Reply #17 on:** June 27, 2011, 04:01:38 am »

Quote from: Axe Knight on June 27, 2011, 12:12:43 am

Given the correlation with Math, I wonder how many of us are also music nerds. I'm all three!

When I'm not at my computer you'll probably find me in my music room working hard at a guitar solo or plucking away at a sonata of J.S. Bach. I posted some of my doodlings on youtube.

Blaeu · « **Reply #18 on:** June 27, 2011, 04:28:40 pm »

I hate to say that I was on track for a double major in Math and Physics before my situation changed and I dropped out. One of my dreams is to go back to school and finish, as in a weird way, I really miss math. Currently, I am only able to use math for fun and recently I've been teaching myself about probabilities and statistics as I attempt to get a better handle on this game.

A few weeks ago I spent my entire night trying to figure out how many combinations of 10 I could make from 25. It took my hours to figure it out, but I had just as much fun doing that than I do playing this game.

Taco Lobster · « **Reply #19 on:** June 27, 2011, 05:35:03 pm »

I know all the digits in pi, just not the particular order...

Jack Rudd · « **Reply #20 on:** June 27, 2011, 07:03:09 pm »

I have a maths degree.

And as an IM with Grade 8 trumpet and Grade 7 piano, I have the holy trifecta: maths nerd, music nerd and board games nerd!

nemryn · « **Reply #21 on:** July 02, 2011, 04:12:23 pm »

I find this to be a particularly helpful pi-memorizing mnemonic.

KMueller · « **Reply #22 on:** July 03, 2011, 08:54:03 am »

I teach 6th and 7th grade mathematics. I am not nearly as good at interesting mathematics as I would like, but I am working on it.

The best pi/music video I have ever seen.
http://www.collegehumor.com/video/6446891/what-pi-sounds-like

^_^_^_^ · « **Reply #23 on:** July 03, 2011, 07:38:04 pm »

I may or may not be a math nerd. You will never know.... You will think but will not know. There is rarely a certain. There is often a probably. There is never a no but always a well if you give me this this and this... There is no begging, only asking for the rightful reward for living. There is no hating, only disliking strongly. There is truly no odd couples, only those that people percieve as odd. There is no lies, only un-told truths hidden in words. There is no stealing, only taking what you or another wants. There is no end, there is no begging, there is only what there is.

lefaiison · « **Reply #24 on:** July 06, 2011, 06:44:58 pm »

Quote from: guided on June 24, 2011, 07:23:17 pm

I was big into competitive math in high school--ARML, AHSME, captained our state-winning HS math team senior year (GO MUSTANGS)--then went into engineering in college. Which I guess has math in it? but I never even took the Putnam, shame on me.

Sometimes when I'm bored I do combinatorics on dominionstrategy.com

Wow. I'm like the Canadian version of you.... eh? It would be extremely freaky if you were working in a certain semi-conductor company...

grep · « **Reply #25 on:** July 07, 2011, 04:48:53 pm »

Well, I've got a master degree in algebra ~15 years ago, but currently forgot most of it.

guided · « **Reply #26 on:** July 07, 2011, 06:37:12 pm »

Quote from: lefaiison on July 06, 2011, 06:44:58 pm

Wow. I'm like the Canadian version of you.... eh? It would be extremely freaky if you were working in a certain semi-conductor company...

Canada, eh? Well, if you work for the (formerly) Red company, I work for the Green company.

Superdad · « **Reply #27 on:** July 08, 2011, 09:41:52 am »

Quote from: Donald X. on June 26, 2011, 03:42:48 pm

I know fifty digits of pi, although, not the fifty right after the three.

Wow that absolultely killed me too. Funniest thing I've read in a LONG time.

I know literally thousands of digits of Pi, I just have no idea where they go.

Myself, I suppose I am a big math nerd too - that is, if the mere understanding of post-graduate math means you are a nerd. I lead a normal life with a job/wife/kids and am very active, but I certainly associate best with "nerdy/intellectual types".

OKAY FINE, I'M A NERD, I ACCEPT IT, IN ALL IT'S GLORY!

Razzishi · « **Reply #28 on:** July 08, 2011, 10:21:02 am »

I have a master's degree in (pure) mathematics, although with no particular area of study. I'd like to get a PhD, but it's not financially or emotionally feasible at this time. In the meantime, I have kept studying "recreationally", looking for an area of mathematics I would really enjoy doing research in. I have used Michigan's state-wide inter-library service (Melcat) to request textbooks from universities be sent to my local library to help do that. In the past couple months I've been enjoying algebraic number theory. It arrives at some truths about the natural number system that I find highly intriguing and sometimes quite profound.

lefaiison · « **Reply #29 on:** July 08, 2011, 10:42:24 am »

Quote from: guided on July 07, 2011, 06:37:12 pm

Canada, eh? Well, if you work for the (formerly) Red company, I work for the Green company.

I do... Markham campus. That's such a crazy coincidence... I'll have to keep an eye out for you on Isotropic.

^_^_^_^ · « **Reply #30 on:** July 08, 2011, 01:22:50 pm »

How is it that on a community as small as this you ended up in the same one o.O

guided · « **Reply #31 on:** July 09, 2011, 07:14:30 pm »

Small world.

^_^_^_^ · « **Reply #32 on:** July 09, 2011, 09:38:39 pm »

Small world. LOTS of people.

Axe Knight · « **Reply #33 on:** July 10, 2011, 09:05:02 pm »

Quote from: ^_^_^_^ on July 09, 2011, 09:38:39 pm

Small world. LOTS of people.

Since I've been on here, two gaming friends of mine (who are lurkers) have recognized me from my Introductions thread, saying that most of my posts are only things I would write. I'm not quite sure how to take that...

ksf_ · « **Reply #34 on:** July 17, 2011, 11:03:57 pm »

Ph.D. in chemical physics - although they pay to me to be an engineer. Funny how that works.

Part of the boredom that was public education was being forced to take a full year of Trig. But the teacher had a poster of pi to 75 digits, which I committed to memory and retain to this day. Could have gone much further if the poster had had more digits.

timchen · « **Reply #35 on:** July 23, 2011, 05:08:16 am »

http://timchen1017.wordpress.com/2011/07/23/murmur-between-papers-%E9%96%92%E8%81%8A%E7%B7%B4%E7%AD%86/

A lengthy blog post I just wrote to prove that I am a nerd. Frankly speaking I would be very surprised that anyone can finish reading it... It also happens to only have very very marginal connection to Dominion.

heatthespurs · « **Reply #36 on:** July 25, 2011, 08:08:40 am »

Quote from: Axe Knight on June 24, 2011, 10:54:57 pm

I was a Mathematical Statistics major who recently passed Actuarial Exam P

Me from actuarial too

mrdirt73 · « **Reply #37 on:** January 12, 2012, 09:51:25 am »

Well, I have a degree in Mathematics but I haven't used any of it professionally in 15 years.

GendoIkari · « **Reply #38 on:** January 12, 2012, 03:01:44 pm »

Math (and computer science) major here!

Axxle · « **Reply #39 on:** January 12, 2012, 05:46:00 pm »

Quote from: Kirian on June 27, 2011, 01:14:28 am

Quote from: Donald X. on June 26, 2011, 03:42:48 pm
I used to give mathematical dance lessons. The square dance, the rhumbus, the cotango... And I know fifty digits of pi, although, not the fifty right after the three.

Where, oh where is the thumbs-up button?

--------

All the math nerds should, if you haven't already, check out Vi Hart's videos.

Everyone should check out Vihart's videos on youtube. Great stuff.
snakesnakesnakesnakesnakesnakesnakesnakesnakesnakesnakesnakesnakesnakesnakesnakesnakesnakesnakesnakesnakesnakesnakesnakesnakesnakesnake

Definitely a math fan, did very well in a few AMC's in high school. I graduated with a Computer Science degree though and am now working in video game development.

chogg · « **Reply #40 on:** January 12, 2012, 07:22:45 pm »

Quote from: Personman on June 26, 2011, 04:09:48 pm

*whoosh*

But also, http://www.pi-world-ranking-list.com/lists/details/luchao.html

I'm number 55 on that list. I also used to hold the top spot on the list for 'e'. A world record for almost 2 months. Woohoo! (It was a low-hanging fruit, so I went for it.)

PhD in physics now, still love math. Oh, and I gave up the memorizing random digits (otherwise I never would have got the PhD!).

Jorbles · « **Reply #41 on:** February 02, 2012, 03:49:13 pm »

Only just saw this thread, but I've wondered the same thing myself before. I majored in Computer Science and now edit math and science textbooks for high school students, so one more nerd here.

Kirian · « **Reply #42 on:** February 02, 2012, 04:57:49 pm »

Quote from: chogg on January 12, 2012, 07:22:45 pm

Quote from: Personman on June 26, 2011, 04:09:48 pm
*whoosh*

But also, http://www.pi-world-ranking-list.com/lists/details/luchao.html

I'm number 55 on that list. I also used to hold the top spot on the list for 'e'. A world record for almost 2 months. Woohoo! (It was a low-hanging fruit, so I went for it.)

Pi is so 2010. Start memorizing tau, and be the first!

jonts26 · « **Reply #43 on:** February 02, 2012, 05:08:02 pm »

If you have pi memorized you should be able to do the conversion to tau on the fly.

WanderingWinder · « **Reply #44 on:** February 02, 2012, 05:25:43 pm »

Quote from: jonts26 on February 02, 2012, 05:08:02 pm

If you have pi memorized you should be able to do the conversion to tau on the fly.

It's not too hard. But not so easy. Like, you can't just double digit by digit.

jonts26 · « **Reply #45 on:** February 02, 2012, 05:30:58 pm »

Well you can, you just need to add 1 if the next digit (in pi) is 5 or greater. So yeah, not the easiest thing ever, but anyone who bothers memorizing pi to 1000 digits is probably good enough to do that without much problem.

Graystripe77 · « **Reply #46 on:** February 02, 2012, 08:27:59 pm »

Axxle · « **Reply #47 on:** February 02, 2012, 10:23:10 pm »

Quote from: Kirian on February 02, 2012, 04:57:49 pm

Quote from: chogg on January 12, 2012, 07:22:45 pm
Quote from: Personman on June 26, 2011, 04:09:48 pm
*whoosh*

But also, http://www.pi-world-ranking-list.com/lists/details/luchao.html

I'm number 55 on that list. I also used to hold the top spot on the list for 'e'. A world record for almost 2 months. Woohoo! (It was a low-hanging fruit, so I went for it.)

Pi is so 2010. Start memorizing tau, and be the first!

Tau > Pi

jonts26 · « **Reply #48 on:** February 02, 2012, 10:24:29 pm »

Quote from: Axxle on February 02, 2012, 10:23:10 pm

Tau > Pi

Tau > Pi
Tau = 2*Pi
2*Pi>Pi
2>1

Yep, the math checks out.

RisingJaguar · « **Reply #49 on:** February 02, 2012, 11:52:02 pm »

Quote from: jonts26 on February 02, 2012, 10:24:29 pm

Quote from: Axxle on February 02, 2012, 10:23:10 pm
Tau > Pi

Tau > Pi
Tau = 2*Pi
2*Pi>Pi
2>1

Yep, the math checks out.

You sound exactly like Mark Zuckerberg! If you only had a fake note pad!

DStu · « **Reply #50 on:** February 03, 2012, 02:41:04 am »

Quote from: Axxle on February 02, 2012, 10:23:10 pm

Tau > Pi

should ... not..... rant ... about .. tau ............. aahh
...
this tau-hype is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard .…... I mean "the concept of pi is wrong" ....arrrgghhh.
If you can't understand that universal constants sometimes arrive in slightly variated forms, and that we cannot define universal symbols for every 2c and c/2 every time that happens unless we want to have so many symbols that you don't even have to think about "beauty", maybe you should not talk about "concepts" at all. I mean there is nothing wrong about tau, I could rant equally about this "pi-hype" if 3000 years ago people would have found it more important to find out the proportion of the circumference of the circle to its radius than to square the circle, but it is like it is.
You don't understand math because you don't have a universal symbol for 2Pi, of course, that makes perfect sense. Fine, define it yourself at the beginning of your whatever and everything is fine, but don't bother the rest of the world with it! ... If that's really the problem that most kids have with math, we wouldn't have a problem. Yeah, you can not add two rational numbers, because, hey, you have learned that 3 years ago, so it's natural that you already have forgotten it, but maybe if we would have defined Pi a little bit better that all would not matter? aahh.... If you don't understand how the 2Pi as circumference of the circle translates into the other formulas, you have understood NOTHING and it does not at all help you to understand math to just change the formulas in a way that you don't need to understand what is happening.

Ich habe fertig!

theory · « **Reply #51 on:** February 03, 2012, 04:25:01 am »

Isn't there a similar problem in electrical engineering? All the signs are backward, and people have learned to deal with it, but if we had a time-travel machine obviously everyone would prefer it to be the "right" way even though it doesn't matter so long as you're consistent.

DStu · « **Reply #52 on:** February 03, 2012, 05:13:05 am »

Quote from: theory on February 03, 2012, 04:25:01 am

Isn't there a similar problem in electrical engineering? All the signs are backward, and people have learned to deal with it, but if we had a time-travel machine obviously everyone would prefer it to be the "right" way even though it doesn't matter so long as you're consistent.

I'm not sure. The point is, that pi is a usefull constant. The area of the circle is 1pi r^2. Smallest eigenvalue of the (pretty fundamental) Dirichlet-Laplacian on the unit interval is pi^2, which leads 1pi entering many formulas for e.g. heat transportation (and many other diffusive processes). The Gaussian integral int exp(-x^2) = sqrt(1pi). Which on the other hand leads to a 1/sqrt(2pi sigma^2) as normalization constant of the Gaussian with variance sigma^2. Pi is so fundamental it appears in different contextes, but sometimes multiplied with constants.
The Pi is not giving some false sense of the "reality". If you care more about the diameter of a circle (compared to it's radius) and derived from that the standard trigonometric functions, you would prefer 2Pi, if you care more about it compared to it diameter, or about the circle's area, or about the half-cycle (like somehow in the heat-equation), then you would prefer pi. So there is no right or wrong here I would say

The convention of the electric charge somehow would be nice, but even more helpfull would be a trip to Thompson, Ritchie and Kernighan

def · « **Reply #53 on:** February 12, 2012, 05:55:58 pm »

So, there are arguments for and against both variants. Does anyone really think a historical grown convention is changed this way?
Compare it to how people name numbers:

The English way is great:
123456:
1hundred23thousand4hundred56

The German way:
123456:
EinhundertDreiundZwanzigtausendVierhundertSechsundFünfzig.
Each digit (or Zwanzig (twenty) instead of Zwei (two), likewise Fünfzig/Fünf) starts with a capital letter, and the order in which they occur is
132465.
This change of order when pronouncing the number can be so confusing especially for kids or other people who just begin to learn the language, or the numbers and how to calculate them. There is no reason not to change that for the better, more natural way, but the fact everyone grew custom to it and that it would be a bit difficult to change things. And that's it, nothing is changed.

The French way:
98:
Quatre-vingt-dix-huit
4x20 18
No comment.

O · « **Reply #54 on:** February 12, 2012, 06:08:05 pm »

A decent amount of people from Canada-USA Mathcamp get addicted to dominion while there and are introduced to Isotropic. In my experience a lot of the math handles come from people who went there. (I happen to be one of these people..)

Also, it makes sense that strategy games such as dominion attract mathematically (ergo logically) inclined people.

ycz6 · « **Reply #55 on:** February 12, 2012, 06:50:49 pm »

Quote from: O on February 12, 2012, 06:08:05 pm

A decent amount of people from Canada-USA Mathcamp get addicted to dominion while there and are introduced to Isotropic.

*cough*

chogg · « **Reply #56 on:** February 13, 2012, 11:39:42 am »

Quote from: theory on February 03, 2012, 04:25:01 am

Isn't there a similar problem in electrical engineering? All the signs are backward, and people have learned to deal with it, but if we had a time-travel machine obviously everyone would prefer it to be the "right" way even though it doesn't matter so long as you're consistent.

I often feel that way. On the other hand, it can actually be useful to separate the concept of "electric current" from "flow of charge carriers", since the same electrical current can stem from physical carriers moving in either direction.

Electric current in metals comes from negatively charged electrons, so it flows oppositely to the charge carriers. On the other hand, ionic solutions can carry current with positive ions just as easily as negative ones. Even in solids, semiconductors which are p-doped (I believe) have their current carried by "holes", which flow in the same direction as the current.

Still... honestly, I guess I'd probably switch the convention if I could.

Axxle · « **Reply #57 on:** February 13, 2012, 05:04:51 pm »

Quote from: DStu on February 03, 2012, 02:41:04 am

should ... not..... rant ... about .. tau ............. aahh
...
this tau-hype is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard .…... I mean "the concept of pi is wrong" ....arrrgghhh.
If you can't understand that universal constants sometimes arrive in slightly variated forms, and that we cannot define universal symbols for every 2c and c/2 every time that happens unless we want to have so many symbols that you don't even have to think about "beauty", maybe you should not talk about "concepts" at all. I mean there is nothing wrong about tau, I could rant equally about this "pi-hype" if 3000 years ago people would have found it more important to find out the proportion of the circumference of the circle to its radius than to square the circle, but it is like it is.
You don't understand math because you don't have a universal symbol for 2Pi, of course, that makes perfect sense. Fine, define it yourself at the beginning of your whatever and everything is fine, but don't bother the rest of the world with it! ... If that's really the problem that most kids have with math, we wouldn't have a problem. Yeah, you can not add two rational numbers, because, hey, you have learned that 3 years ago, so it's natural that you already have forgotten it, but maybe if we would have defined Pi a little bit better that all would not matter? aahh.... If you don't understand how the 2Pi as circumference of the circle translates into the other formulas, you have understood NOTHING and it does not at all help you to understand math to just change the formulas in a way that you don't need to understand what is happening.

Ich habe fertig!

Yeah, sorry. I was thinking in a high school math teacher mindset. Tau is a lot easier for non math oriented people to intuitively understand than Pi.

chogg · « **Reply #58 on:** February 13, 2012, 08:47:54 pm »

Quote from: Axxle on February 13, 2012, 05:04:51 pm

Yeah, sorry. I was thinking in a high school math teacher mindset. Tau is a lot easier for non math oriented people to intuitively understand than Pi.

Really?

I mean, I'm math-oriented, so I can't tell. But I'm surprised either would be easier than the other.

Kirian · « **Reply #59 on:** February 13, 2012, 11:59:58 pm »

Quote from: chogg on February 13, 2012, 08:47:54 pm

Quote from: Axxle on February 13, 2012, 05:04:51 pm
Yeah, sorry. I was thinking in a high school math teacher mindset. Tau is a lot easier for non math oriented people to intuitively understand than Pi.

Really?

I mean, I'm math-oriented, so I can't tell. But I'm surprised either would be easier than the other.

Simple. Pi times X radians = X/2 times around a circle. Tau times X radians = X times around the circle. Or, put another way, to circumscribe a pie one must go through a length of... 2pi. Because the trigonometric functions are intimately related to the circle, it's much more useful, in teaching terms, to teach that one-third of a circle is equivalent to one-third of the circle constant... rather than 2/3 of the circle constant.

The unmodified sine and cosine waves have period tau; a phase shift of tau is the same as the original, while a phase shift of pi is the negative of the original.

----

A few other notes, mainly directed at DStu: appealing to the area formula of a circle is actually a terrible argument, as area ought to be the double integral of the circle constant with respect to radius. Similar double integrals appear in multiple physics contexts; never is double the constant of interest used as the base.

Now, sure, trying to take the time machine back and change this isn't going to happen. We may well be stuck with this, even if aliens will laugh at us because of it. But we can argue from history that Euler ought to have used 6.28 instead of 3.14. Euclid defined the circle based on radius rather than diameter. One constructs a circle from the radius, not the diameter. And Euler really, really should have realized that e^(i*[tau]) = 1 looks better than--and makes more sense than-- e^(i*pi) = -1.

DStu · « **Reply #60 on:** February 14, 2012, 02:00:56 am »

Quote from: Axxle on February 13, 2012, 05:04:51 pm

Yeah, sorry. I was thinking in a high school math teacher mindset. Tau is a lot easier for non math oriented people to intuitively understand than Pi.

I think my point is that it maybe is easier to apply without understanding it, but it is not easier to understand. And if you understood it it's equally easy

Quote

as area ought to be the double integral of the circle constant with respect to radius

Don't understand that. If you mean that

Code: [Select]

area(r) = \int_0^r\int_0^s tau ds dr = 1/2 tau r^2 = pi r^2,

than that happens to be right, but I don't see on an intuitive level why that should be like that, other than it would be nice. Because, if you extend this reasoning to higher dimensions, you would believe that for the 3-d ball you have

Code: [Select]

volume(r) = \int_0^r\int_0^s\int_0^u tau du ds dr = 1/6 tau r^3 = 1/3 pi r^3,

which is clearly off by a factor of 4.

And that's why maybe you need to understand what's happening and not complain that the constants are in a way that you can apply them in the basic examples without understanding.

WanderingWinder · « **Reply #61 on:** February 14, 2012, 08:32:21 am »

Quote from: DStu on February 14, 2012, 02:00:56 am

Quote from: Axxle on February 13, 2012, 05:04:51 pm
Yeah, sorry. I was thinking in a high school math teacher mindset. Tau is a lot easier for non math oriented people to intuitively understand than Pi.

I think my point is that it maybe is easier to apply without understanding it, but it is not easier to understand. And if you understood it it's equally easy

Quote
as area ought to be the double integral of the circle constant with respect to radius
Don't understand that. If you mean that
Code: [Select]
area(r) = \int_0^r\int_0^s tau ds dr = 1/2 tau r^2 = pi r^2,than that happens to be right, but I don't see on an intuitive level why that should be like that, other than it would be nice. Because, if you extend this reasoning to higher dimensions, you would believe that for the 3-d ball you have
Code: [Select]
volume(r) = \int_0^r\int_0^s\int_0^u tau du ds dr = 1/6 tau r^3 = 1/3 pi r^3,which is clearly off by a factor of 4.

And that's why maybe you need to understand what's happening and not complain that the constants are in a way that you can apply them in the basic examples without understanding.

Wait, you're saying you 'don't understand that' and then telling him that he needs to understand what's happening and not complain?
He also happens to be right...

Davio · « **Reply #62 on:** February 14, 2012, 08:41:13 am »

Quote from: def on February 12, 2012, 05:55:58 pm

So, there are arguments for and against both variants. Does anyone really think a historical grown convention is changed this way?
Compare it to how people name numbers:

The English way is great:
123456:
1hundred23thousand4hundred56

The German way:
123456:
EinhundertDreiundZwanzigtausendVierhundertSechsundFünfzig.
Each digit (or Zwanzig (twenty) instead of Zwei (two), likewise Fünfzig/Fünf) starts with a capital letter, and the order in which they occur is
132465.
This change of order when pronouncing the number can be so confusing especially for kids or other people who just begin to learn the language, or the numbers and how to calculate them. There is no reason not to change that for the better, more natural way, but the fact everyone grew custom to it and that it would be a bit difficult to change things. And that's it, nothing is changed.

The French way:
98:
Quatre-vingt-dix-huit
4x20 18
No comment.

The Dutch way is similar to the german:
HonderdDrieënTwintigduizendVierhonderdZesenVijftig (Caps are for clarity to show where the digits start).
Order of occurance is 132465

I don't like this swapping of the digits and it's incredibly annoying when you're being dictated a (mobile) phone number. The other would say "Two.." and you type in "2" in your phone, the other person continues "and Thirty" and you have to wipe and put 32 there instead.

When I dictate numbers I always just go from left to right grouping 'em by 2 or 3. So a fake number would be: "Five Five Five (pause) Three One Two (pause) Six Nine Eight (finished)". This would be 555-312-698.

I don't care much for Tau, it's just an unnecessary esthetic thing. Pi suffices.

DStu · « **Reply #63 on:** February 14, 2012, 09:04:13 am »

Quote from: WanderingWinder on February 14, 2012, 08:32:21 am

Wait, you're saying you 'don't understand that' and then telling him that he needs to understand what's happening and not complain?

I mean I'm not sure what he meant, but every meaning I could give to it I don't really agree.

And I didn't mean that he needs to understand (also somehow I wrote it, or you can/must read it like that), but that you can't just teach your students: "Here, the area-formula with integrals for the circle is the same as for the square, just with a tau, because hey, math is beautifull", because that reasoning will break down if you go to d!=2.

Quote

He also happens to be right...

I still don't get what exactly is right...

chogg · « **Reply #64 on:** February 14, 2012, 09:10:35 am »

Quote from: Kirian on February 13, 2012, 11:59:58 pm

Quote from: chogg on February 13, 2012, 08:47:54 pm
Quote from: Axxle on February 13, 2012, 05:04:51 pm
Yeah, sorry. I was thinking in a high school math teacher mindset. Tau is a lot easier for non math oriented people to intuitively understand than Pi.

Really?

I mean, I'm math-oriented, so I can't tell. But I'm surprised either would be easier than the other.

Simple. Pi times X radians = X/2 times around a circle. Tau times X radians = X times around the circle. Or, put another way, to circumscribe a pie one must go through a length of... 2pi. Because the trigonometric functions are intimately related to the circle, it's much more useful, in teaching terms, to teach that one-third of a circle is equivalent to one-third of the circle constant... rather than 2/3 of the circle constant.

The unmodified sine and cosine waves have period tau; a phase shift of tau is the same as the original, while a phase shift of pi is the negative of the original.

Thanks for the explanation; it was very clear. Too bad it's prohibitively hard to change well-established conventions. Guess we're stuck with pi and QWERTY.

Davio · « **Reply #65 on:** February 14, 2012, 09:29:03 am »

Aaaargh, QWERTY, don't even get me started on that one. I hate not having learnt Dvorak when I first started using a computer. As a software developer, I type quite a lot and I'm sure Dvorak instead of Qwerty would lead to faster development time and less errors, but where do I find the time to switch over?

Geronimoo · « **Reply #66 on:** February 14, 2012, 09:35:26 am »

Or Azerty.... prob even worse

DStu · « **Reply #67 on:** February 14, 2012, 09:49:01 am »

Quote from: Davio on February 14, 2012, 09:29:03 am

Aaaargh, QWERTY, don't even get me started on that one. I hate not having learnt Dvorak when I first started using a computer. As a software developer, I type quite a lot and I'm sure Dvorak instead of Qwerty would lead to faster development time and less errors, but where do I find the time to switch over?

At least you don't find {[]}\ on AltGr+7890ß

(where ß is next to 0)

chogg · « **Reply #68 on:** February 14, 2012, 12:49:58 pm »

Quote from: Davio on February 14, 2012, 09:29:03 am

Aaaargh, QWERTY, don't even get me started on that one. I hate not having learnt Dvorak when I first started using a computer. As a software developer, I type quite a lot and I'm sure Dvorak instead of Qwerty would lead to faster development time and less errors, but where do I find the time to switch over?

I switched to Dvorak for a year or so when starting grad school. It wasn't that hard, though the first 2 weeks or so were quite frustrating! It was very comfortable, but what brought me back was the Vim text editor. I used a hybrid layout for a while, but I just found it easier to cave and use Qwerty.

What I really wish is that Dvorak had taken over before Vim was invented.

timchen · « **Reply #69 on:** February 15, 2012, 11:17:53 pm »

Quote from: DStu on February 03, 2012, 02:41:04 am

Quote from: Axxle on February 02, 2012, 10:23:10 pm
Tau > Pi

should ... not..... rant ... about .. tau ............. aahh
...
this tau-hype is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard .…... I mean "the concept of pi is wrong" ....arrrgghhh.
If you can't understand that universal constants sometimes arrive in slightly variated forms, and that we cannot define universal symbols for every 2c and c/2 every time that happens unless we want to have so many symbols that you don't even have to think about "beauty", maybe you should not talk about "concepts" at all. I mean there is nothing wrong about tau, I could rant equally about this "pi-hype" if 3000 years ago people would have found it more important to find out the proportion of the circumference of the circle to its radius than to square the circle, but it is like it is.
You don't understand math because you don't have a universal symbol for 2Pi, of course, that makes perfect sense. Fine, define it yourself at the beginning of your whatever and everything is fine, but don't bother the rest of the world with it! ... If that's really the problem that most kids have with math, we wouldn't have a problem. Yeah, you can not add two rational numbers, because, hey, you have learned that 3 years ago, so it's natural that you already have forgotten it, but maybe if we would have defined Pi a little bit better that all would not matter? aahh.... If you don't understand how the 2Pi as circumference of the circle translates into the other formulas, you have understood NOTHING and it does not at all help you to understand math to just change the formulas in a way that you don't need to understand what is happening.

Ich habe fertig!

I've never heard about tau before. But now that I read about it, it certainly make a lot of sense. An enormous amount of sense.

Yes, indeed it is just a factor of 2 difference. But how to define a symbol is really something very important. To the extreme it can affect how capable people can think about things.

I would imagine in theoretical physics IF tau is the definition used, the productivity can increase by more than 1%, certainly measurable.

On the other hand, it certainly cannot be changed, as it would cause more confusion. We already don't have enough Greek letters. We also happen to spend a whole lot of time just trying to understand everyone else's notation... so this extra effort to track the extra factor of 2 is actually not that bad...

Davio · « **Reply #70 on:** February 16, 2012, 05:11:22 am »

Time to start using Unicode in the SI system.

ڴ = 2 ݖ + ﮩ

(obviously you have to read right to left

)

blueblimp · « **Reply #71 on:** March 05, 2012, 06:19:31 pm »

Quote from: Davio on February 14, 2012, 09:29:03 am

Aaaargh, QWERTY, don't even get me started on that one. I hate not having learnt Dvorak when I first started using a computer. As a software developer, I type quite a lot and I'm sure Dvorak instead of Qwerty would lead to faster development time and less errors, but where do I find the time to switch over?

I experimented with Dvorak briefly, and decided not to pursue it. Here's why: Dvorak is optimized for typing English text. Yes it might be a little bit better than QWERTY for typing English. But code is not very much like English, so I don't think Dvorak offers much benefit there.

Kirian · « **Reply #72 on:** March 05, 2012, 06:35:18 pm »

Quote from: blueblimp on March 05, 2012, 06:19:31 pm

Quote from: Davio on February 14, 2012, 09:29:03 am
Aaaargh, QWERTY, don't even get me started on that one. I hate not having learnt Dvorak when I first started using a computer. As a software developer, I type quite a lot and I'm sure Dvorak instead of Qwerty would lead to faster development time and less errors, but where do I find the time to switch over?

I experimented with Dvorak briefly, and decided not to pursue it. Here's why: Dvorak is optimized for typing English text. Yes it might be a little bit better than QWERTY for typing English. But code is not very much like English, so I don't think Dvorak offers much benefit there.

I also tried Dvorak briefly. This was in the era before phone texting was common and when IM was very common--and I found that trying to learn Dvorak meant I couldn't keep up with three ICQ conversations at once. I probably would have gone further if not for that.

That said, for coding:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_Simplified_Keyboard#Programmer_Dvorak

Look, braces, brackets, and parens no longer need Shift! How often do coders need numerals anyway? Counters, array indices, for, and while? Probably more in pure C for pointers.

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