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[AndrewisFTTW]

N2 I think I was reacting to Galz's whole thing about there probably being scum off wagon, meaning me or DatSwan, and I wanted to prove him wrong somehow. I also thought there was at least one scum among the newbies. I had a townread on Skumpy and was null on DatSwan so clearing DatSwan pointed to xxraptor. I know that's kinda stupid but whatever.

[Teproc]

N2 I think I was reacting to Galz's whole thing about there probably being scum off wagon, meaning me or DatSwan, and I wanted to prove him wrong somehow. I also thought there was at least one scum among the newbies. I had a townread on Skumpy and was null on DatSwan so clearing DatSwan pointed to xxraptor. I know that's kinda stupid but whatever.

Why not Galz though ? Didn't you suspect him because of the claim ?

[AndrewisFTTW]

N2 I think I was reacting to Galz's whole thing about there probably being scum off wagon, meaning me or DatSwan, and I wanted to prove him wrong somehow. I also thought there was at least one scum among the newbies. I had a townread on Skumpy and was null on DatSwan so clearing DatSwan pointed to xxraptor. I know that's kinda stupid but whatever.

Why not Galz though ? Didn't you suspect him because of the claim ?

Yes but I wanted to investigate someone I didn't have a strong read on.

[Teproc]

N2 I think I was reacting to Galz's whole thing about there probably being scum off wagon, meaning me or DatSwan, and I wanted to prove him wrong somehow. I also thought there was at least one scum among the newbies. I had a townread on Skumpy and was null on DatSwan so clearing DatSwan pointed to xxraptor. I know that's kinda stupid but whatever.

Why not Galz though ? Didn't you suspect him because of the claim ?

Yes but I wanted to investigate someone I didn't have a strong read on.

I was going to ask if you've been a Cop before, but I have my stats ! You sure roll VT a lot.

For the record I disagree with that strategy, but ok.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Not the best cop, I'll be the first to admit that.

[AndrewisFTTW]

(And where are those stats?)

[Teproc]

(And where are those stats?)

(On my computer, on an ugly .calc sheet. Only normal games.)

[Teproc]

DatSwan interactions with flipped scum.

Nothing Day 1

Day 2

OK so here is the thing - I am VT. I don't really see the point in saying it because obv everyone is going to make there own decisions, but there it is. I had to look up what "lurking" meant lol.
If it has come off as such to anyone, I would like to say my reasoning behind being subtle so far is only because of my inexperience in the game. Watching and reading and gathering is pretty much all I have been able to maintain, and even then I find it overwhelming (fun, but still a lot).

I am still fine tuning this weird situation where I want to point out "skummy" behavior without making it seem like I am in fact skum. Not because I care if I get lynched because if we win as town we win as town, whatever... but because I want the points to be taken into good consideration.

Galzria could go either way. He is a random dude from what I am reading. I would note he seems to be making certain topics focus on things that he wants to talk about, and ignoring the others, which is skummy, but all in all whatever.

TWM says he doesn't care and doesn't want to put in time and etc, but then types up novels... weird.

I think that Xx is skum. I have no reasoning for it other then what I am perceiving from convos. It would seem to me that as he introduced himself as new in the beginning it would be an easy play to have a vet coach him to be a slow player and manipulate the conversations to their advantage.

That's my 2 cents.

Unvote

Figured I might as well quote whole thing since the VT claim is rather important.

I think DatSwam is scummy for his claim. It's too easy for a newbie to 'accidentally' claim when they didn't realize they shouldn't. Rather than a town blunder, I'm much more inclined to believe that this is a calculated scum idea. This leads me to believe that Galz is also scum, and they're in kahoots when it comes to claiming for no reason.

In case there was some miscommunication...

1) I did NOT accidentally claim VT. I meant to claim VT, I just did not realize that it would have a negative effect on my townsfolk. I thought I had been pretty straightforward with my thoughts so far. So while yeah, in hindsight, claiming my role probably didn't help my team all too much.. I do want to reiterate to fellow townies... I claimed VT because I am VT. Not by mistake.

2) If you are town, I would invite you to go back and re read Galz. Whether VT or not VT, his initial VT claim had one goal and that was to stir the pot. If he is scum-hunting he wanted to beat the bush, great. If he is scum he wanted to gain info as much as possible in order to ward off scummy vibes as the game continues. Far more to gain as skum opposed to town IMO.

3) On a much less substantial note.... While I appreciate the high fives and back pats... Andrew seems very scummy to me.

4) If we lynch someone other than Galz or Jake, they are probably going to bus Galz or Jake.

5) Don't forget this shit. #GoTownies

Hypothetical - RR flips scum. Does this effect anyone's opinion on a Jake lynch?

Day 3

Sorry I woke up late

IDK what I am supposed to like say at this point in the game. My main read has now recently switched, which is Galz. I no longer currently am sitting on him as skum.

I am going to be a little short on post for the rest of this IRL day because I am taking the IC advice and re reading D2 as if Jake was Town. Mainly because I was SO SURE he was skum I didn't even bother targeting him, so now I do not know what I missed.

Xx and Chairs need to speak up a bit. I can't speak for Chairs but my read on Xx to this point is if you ask him a direct question he will answer.

PPE

Also a note - this day is starting with Faust the same way D2 was starting with Jake. Don't know what that means, just kind of pointing it out since I have to acknowledged my Jake read was wrong.

Hypothetical... XXR goes to the rope... are we thinking two vets with him? What is the likelihood that someone like Galz and/or Andrew are bussing him st this point?

Same stuff as Jake, I suppose. Not a lot of specific comments about a lot of people, not really defending your actions and votes, like why you voted Robz for instance.

Unfortunately for you, 96 hours is a long long time without prior warning. Means you'll be back at what, 12 hours before deadline? I can tell there will be people here who will not be very forgiving of you. Specifically Teproc.

I would like right now to say that I DO NOT think XXR is skum at this point. My question previously was just based on the rest of the context. We should be careful about wagoning more on this just because of VLA.
Also - Townies - as of right now we are getting our asses kicked. The more time the better in the day. Let's communicate about votes but keep a close eye on counts.

OK - officially here and ready to be helpful - had to do some re reading.. I don't want to post like ALLL reasoning because it would be a novel, but in a nutshell:

         Town:
Teproc - IDK, call it a guy feeling
Me - As previously claimed.. VT

         Null-Leaning-Towards-Town:
Galz - Being too helpful for me to say any sort of a lynch would be a good idea at this point.
XXR - My whole thing so far has been sitting back and observing based on the idea I would say something noobish or stupid that hurt my fellow townies (it has been made clear I need to switch this up, I get it). I just read the same noobish vibe here from XXR.
Andrew - Vote history and overall interaction.

        Null-Leaning-Towards-Skum:
RoadRunner - Too quite. 1 out of 2 to lynch town twice.
Charis - Too quiet. 1 out of 2 to lynch town twice.
**Note - I am aware that Galz also voted Lynched Town twice, but we all saw the timestamps on that**
Skumpy - I am not saying Skum. But if I had to pick one of the new players to be the "coached mafia" it would be him.

        Skum
Faust - Currently on me. Voted town lynch day 1. Was the only one voted Skumpy, who I believe to be coached skum, Day 2.


If Skumpy were to flip Town - Faust would move onto my "lean towards town list"
If Skumpy were to flip Skum - I would be looking right at Faust-RR-Chairs
If Chairs or RR were to flip Town - The other would move into my "for sure skum list"
If Faust were to flip Town - I would be confused, but I would be looking at RR-Chairs and then re-evaluate Skumpy.
If XXR flipped Skum - I would would be looking Faust-RR-Chairs
If Galz were to flip Skum - XXR would be Town IMO and Skumpy would have to go.

And as I am typing the rest of this out I realize it could all be changed based on who skum kills that night so I will just leave it be.


End of story - Chairs and RR have two lynches each under them. We should look more into that.

unvote

Note- XXR's last action before going VLA was to v..o..t..e Faust (just making sure). I am still good with voting for him, but I am following my own advice on extending the days. If you think XXR is skum you need to think about this. Would skum play this this way? add a vote when one vote matters so much to a person that isn't a sure lynch?

I think this should give more cred to XXR as a town read.
I think this should have use look back into a Faust lynch.
I think we are OVERTHINKING a ton of crap and skum are laughing at us right now so let's get our $%@& together.

I do NOT like a XXR or Galz lynch today. I obv am fine with a Faust lynch. If someone has some input on a RR or Chairs I could also maybe get behind those.
Skumpy tied or first pick with Faust still.

I could get behind chairs or RR... so it is known.

I would indeed like to know very much more about why you've suddenly lessened your scum read on him, but not until after his big defense. While I agree that his revealing he's a roleblocker does give insight into his actions at the start of day 2, and while the town!faust train of though does make sense, it could have easily gone the other way too; he suspects you're lying about not being a town PR in order to not get role blocked, so he votes you hoping to get a big enough wagon to make you reveal your real role and reveal your deceit.

vote: Chairs as my #1 choice. RR is a close second.

As I said, I'd much rather RR, but don't change just for me. Questions for you:

So you believe Chairs is bussing?
So you think the team is Chairs/RR/....Andrew? (If you agree on the first 2 people, keep in mind that once I can convince DatSwan that I'm not teamed with faust, that's 3 people who agree on 2 scum. Make of that what you will).

I believe either of the options are possible. I said in my post that I thought Chairs/RR are on my skum read list.
vote: RR

Between the post before and this one, there was one RR vote (chairs) and one chairs vote (Galz).

Well this is gonna look bad for me... Faust's close look into me is putting back over to that side though so....
vote: Faust

After faust makes a case on him (and I sheep it). Take RR from 3 votes to 2, and faust from 2 votes to 3.

Pre-hopefulBigReadLaterOn:

Is it a XX/Galzria team? It seems too simple.

Watch it just end up being something like faust/Chairs/RR and they just let town massacre themselves.

before I get to anything....this.

vote: RR

L-1

Day 4

There's no redirecting role, so...

vote: Raptor

I mean not saying I am not on your side here... but we can be essentially as sure that "faust targeted skumpy" as we can be that "raptor targeted faust...."

Skumpy your logic doesn't follow... if liars are claiming Town. How do we deduce your role. You wanna help out. Claim like everyone else.

vote: skumpy

Not an interaction with flipped scum, but noteworthy given that this was after XXRaptor messed up his fakeclaim.

[Galzria]

Note:

XxRaptor was a Flavor Cop & 2-Shot Roleblocker.

The remaining scum is a Goon (no town claims to MOD 3/4).

This means it's likely scum Flavor Copped N1, and probably N2. N3 they killed Faust instead of Roleblocking him. So they probably either flavored N3 again, or blocked a found town PR. N4 Raptor was dead, so they straight killed Skumpy.

[Teproc]

And now the big one. Galz.

Day 1

Nothing, except for some twinclaim stuff early on re: Raptor.

Day 2

Vote: Robz

Please compare this vote to the one that Skumpy casts below it. One is thought out, provides reasons and is committal. The other is empty and really, in my eyes a vote away from jake. At this point jake is at 5 votes. If xx had voted there it would have been 6. I had just asked people to explain why they weren't voting for either Robz or jake and this was xx's response apparently. No reason given for why not voting for jake. Or a reason for voting for Robz. Just a vote that dtracted from the larger wagon here.

Now I do think that if xx were scum (and jake not their partner) they would have voted jake there I think. But I have made that mistake before of thinking mafia would push lynches instead of intentionally avoiding them.

You are absolutely correct that Raptor's vote was far worse here. Anytime a vote is cast without reasoning behind it it's bad (ok, {exceptions, reasons}).

But let's assume Raptor IS scum for a moment as it's his bad vote in question:

- 8 hours (give or take) to deadline.
- Jake is at 5 votes
- Robz is at 2
- Nobody else is on radar.
- Scum!Raptor knows the alignment of both Jake & Robz

Questions:
- Does Jake's alignment matter here? If yes, how? Certainly if he's scum this vote makes sense from scum!Raptor. What if Jake is Town?
- Does scum, even newbie scum, place that vote with literally 0 justification? Do they not at least try to seem townie by doing it?
- If XxRaptor is scum, and Jake is scum, do you believe the third scum was also voting Robz, left bussing Jake, or not voting?
- If XxRaptor is scum and Jake is Town, do you believe all three scum were on Robz/Jake wagons? Why was the lynch so difficult to get through? If they're not all on the wagons, then one of {Andrew, DatSwan} would be scum, correct?

{Given the amount of content, it's amazing how little I've found so far... but then again RR and Xraptor were virtually invisible.}

I'm in agreement right now. Jake is either scum or being intentionally unhelpful when asked simple straightforward questions. And it carries a decent narrative for everything that's happened so far. I didn't really lean scum on him earlier in the day, but the combination of my own analysis yesterday and the way he's chosen to interact and respond...

I'm good with vote: Jake

So okay. I'm not sure I like this. Lemme try to phrase my thoughts in a way that will make sense to you and others.

Before, you had expressed a not-scum read on Jake, meaning that you didn't see the scum motive for things he did (like not being on the Robz wagon). All of a sudden, you flip yourself onto Jake because he hasn't been answering questions. He hasn't been doing this the entire game, but your vote comes a few posts after he doesn't really answer a question about your and DatSwan's claim. I feel like you're only voting for Jake because you got 'involved' with him, given that his question he didn't answer was about you. This seems defensive to me, and I'd like you to respond to it before we continue. I feel like your response(s) to this are gonna basically make or break my read on you.
PPE

I'll get too this, but probably not tonight.

But I'm not trying to "make or break" your read of me. You're so far off my radar that there's a decent chance you're scum - but even if you're not, at very worst you vote me, lynch me, and get a CRAP ton of information from the interactions I've created today.

So I will answer you - because I've no reason not to - but I don't really care about the veiled threat made at the end of your post.

I'm in agreement right now. Jake is either scum or being intentionally unhelpful when asked simple straightforward questions. And it carries a decent narrative for everything that's happened so far. I didn't really lean scum on him earlier in the day, but the combination of my own analysis yesterday and the way he's chosen to interact and respond...

I'm good with vote: Jake

So okay. I'm not sure I like this. Lemme try to phrase my thoughts in a way that will make sense to you and others.

Before, you had expressed a not-scum read on Jake, meaning that you didn't see the scum motive for things he did (like not being on the Robz wagon). All of a sudden, you flip yourself onto Jake because he hasn't been answering questions. He hasn't been doing this the entire game, but your vote comes a few posts after he doesn't really answer a question about your and DatSwan's claim. I feel like you're only voting for Jake because you got 'involved' with him, given that his question he didn't answer was about you. This seems defensive to me, and I'd like you to respond to it before we continue. I feel like your response(s) to this are gonna basically make or break my read on you.
PPE

Alright, first off:

There's a difference between a "not-scum" read and "town" read. It's never really been that I haven't wanted to see him lynched, it's just that I've never really seem justification for him to be the top lynch choice.

I still don't really see what all the fuss over him yesterday was. Yes, he was absent, but that's often just Jake. When he came in he posted a bunch, in bursts. But that's also just Jake. I never felt, despite what TWM claimed, that he was avoiding questions. Things directed at him he answered. Things genetically asked he usually left alone. But he wasn't "avoiding" in my eyes.

At the start of today his wagon picked up exactly where it left off and where one would assume "either/or" lynches would start. Robz was town doesn't default mean Jake is scum though so again nothing presented itself for me to read him one way or another.

Much of today has been focused around me. Understandably. What WAS directed at Jake was a pushed mostly by TWM who was claiming that Jake had been avoiding. As I hadn't noticed it D1 I kinda understand Jake's frustration - but I decided to reread TWM looking exactly for all the things Jake had been ignoring. I didn't find much.

So yeah - not much there. From either side. But TWM's absolute conviction over this leads me to read town on him. 

The problem for Jake then is twofold and recent:

1) I feel like over the past 24-48 hours Jake HAS been intentionally vague and non-responsive. Especially in a way that is completely by choice. He knows what's been asked of him and he's choosing to be as short and nondetailed as possible.

- This could be entirely out of frustration. But I know that I, for one, have at least asked him not to let his frustration dictate his posts. It doesn't help him or us. But still it persists.

- You could be correct in that I'm just noticing it more because it's about me. I don't feel that's accurate but it could be. Certainly I'm probably a little more invested in responses and reads when they're about me.

2) My analysis of the wagons yesterday. I still believe strongly that there is one scum between {Andrew, DatSwan}. This is ESPECIALLY true if Jake is Town - because to believe otherwise means that {Robz, Jake} had 3 scum voting them but we struggled to lynch... And that doesn't make sense. With that much scum coaching it should've been way easier. I digress however. The thing that caught my attention was that Jake was NOT voting Robz.

- From town!Jake's perspective this doesn't make sense. We needed a lynch. Any lynch other than him is a better lynch than him. Yes, he had a stated town read on Robz - but he would've KNOWN that he himself was town. That makes Robz an infinitely better vote. But he wasn't there. He wasn't helping us get to lynch.

- From Scum!Jake's POV this is just fine however. He doesn't care if we actually lynch, so he's in no push to make it happen. Further, if we do lynch Robz, he'll flip town. Scum!Jake knows this and would rather not be on that wagon. Easier to point fingers at those who lynched a townie or say "I told you so". And lastly, if things did start to shift around or back to him he always had his vote as a card in his back pocket to reapply pressure to Robz or whomever if needed.

I hadn't looked in detail at the wagons until two days ago. Even when I saw the above it struck me as off, but not immediately vote worthy. After sleeping on it though and having him come in yesterday and respond as he did it kinda tipped me over.

Exercise for those of you voting me:

If I'm lynched, I'll flip town.

- Assume we're at that point right now. In twilight.  Reactions? Thoughts on who scum actually is?

I'll do the same for Jake tomorrow and suggest others voting Jake do the same too. This isn't special just for me.

If Jake is Town, as I've already stated, I would be almost certainly locked in on {Andrew, DatSwan}.

The biggest reason is that given the group of people I know to be town at that point {Robz, Gkrieg, Jake, Teproc, Galzria}, 4 of them had their votes on {Robz, Jake} at D1 end. If the scum team were also all on {Robz, Jake} that's 7 votes.

This is the end of day vote for those two players:

Robz888 (7): Galzria, chairs, Xxraptorslayer96, Skumpy, gkrieg13, Roadrunner7671, Teproc
JaketheBaseballGod22 (3): faust, Robz888, The_Wine_Merchant

Possible scum in this group: {Chairs, Raptor, Skumpy, Roadrunner, Faust, TWM}

If Jake is town I strongly suspect Skumpy is as well - I don't think scum!Skumpy WIFOM's a change from one town wagon to another just to get a lynch. TWM I also read strongly as town right now.

Now, there COULD be 3 scum in {Chairs, Faust, Roadrunner, Raptor}. Certainly would have us in a bind right now as they're getting collectively very little heat - and don't look to be any time soon. But I wouldn't be surprised to see 2 of those 3 be scum if Jake is town, with the last one between Andrew and DatSwan.

So I guess those combination of pairings is where I would be looking. 2-3 of {Faust, Chairs, Roadrunner, Raptor}, and 1 of {Andrew, DatSwan}. Maybe I should focus more on the first group?

If you are town, who do you think responded the most scummly to your claim?

Well, that's interesting. I think scum probably split. It's an easy push as "bad town play" {Faust, Andrew, Jake} - but I also honestly expect some town to feel this way as well - so it's not really a scum!tell to react that way. That said, Faust by far was the scummiest of these reactions simply because I didn't at ALL feel like he was voting me because he thought I was scum. His vote felt made because he thought it would be easy.

On the other hand, scum doesn't really have the need to jump on it. I'm going to get heat regardless so they can wait and watch. In the group that acknowledged it but didn't engage it you have {TWM, Skumpy, Roadrunner, Chairs, DatSwan}. Of these you and Skumpy have my most expected scum reactions (Almost literally "We'll wait and see") - but I town read you both so... Interesting note on Roadrunner... he's the only player to give me town credit for the play which I don't at all think was warranted... So definitely stands out for that.

Lastly there's the group that I don't recall even acknowledging it {XxRaptor}. This very well could be a "don't wanna shoot myself in the foot" scum play.

So... in order, discounting all other reasons for reads:

Faust -> TWM -> Skumpy -> XxRaptor -> Roadrunner -> Chairs -> DatSwan -> Andrew -> Jake

Skumpy - I *think* I've made my thoughts on your questions to me clear in my posts...

But short version: Faust being scum is definitely something I would consider if Jake is town. See my "Thoughts if we lynch Jake and he flips town" post. I also think aspects of his play (see: reactions to the claim) have themselves read scummy.

As for why I don't include Roarunner in the {Andrew/DatSwan} analysis... well, because he was on wagon end of D1, yes? On Robz in fact. So for the purpose of helping us reach a lynch he was there at least. He's definitely flown crazy under radar though and absolutely could be scum.

vote: RR

I could get behind this.

Vote Count 2.4

Galzria (3): JaketheBaseballGod22, AndrewisFTTW, DatSwan
JaketheBaseballGod22 (4): Roadrunner7671, Galzria, chairs, faust
faust (1): Skumpy
Roadrunner7671 (1): Teproc

Not voting (2): Xxraptorslayer96, The_Wine_Merchant

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 1 ends Wednesday, August 16 at 2:30 pm forum time.

If Jake is town then there's almost certainly 1 scum on me, and 2 on Jake (plus or minus Raptor). These wagons break down to match my previous analysis almost perfectly.

Bleh. unvote.

That won't look pretty but I don't really care. If Jake is scum I'll gladly be the following lynch for looking the fool here. The wagon doesn't match with my analysis the last few days though.

I know it's kinda jumping the shark to assume Jake is town but my gut says it's a bad lynch - and if that's right then I think my analysis regarding there being 2 scum in {Chairs, RR, Faust, Raptor} is correct. And, well... I don't know a better way to turn the conversation towards them. They've received so little collective suspicion and there's so much else going on it feels like they're set on cruise... and I can't shake the feeling of being played.

I think I want to join Skumpy on vote: faust for now.

For those not remembering: that unvote was too late as Jake self-hammered. Fun times.

DAY 3

Look, I've said before I think there's 2 in {Faust, Chairs, RR, Raptor} and 1 in {Andrew, Datswan}.

For the first group, I think it goes Faust -> RR -> Chairs -> Raptor. RR/Chairs are interchangeable, the others are miles apart.

DatSwan and Andrew could be 50/50. DatSwan has ignored me when I've pushed him, Andrew has fought back. This would make me lean DatSwan, but I'm told Andrew reacts far more aggressively as scum than town.

I'll vote wherever you want each and every day, but I'll stand by it being a mistake to not lynch Faust

i'm going to stop quoting posts mentioning that PoE thing based on wagons if they do'nt comment further on RR and Raptor specifically.

Baaa.

vote: Raptor

This is after our spat early D3. I interpreted this as Galz essentially saying "fine, have it your way" (I was voting Raptor).

Not Faust, not Raptor?

Chairs. Then RR. Then you. Then Andrew.

I could flip RR and Chairs. I could flip you and Andrew.

Answering DatSwan asking Galz where he'd go if he had to move his vote.

Skumpy, that's kind of what I was getting at with B) and C) above - just because I think his player choices were poor doesn't make him scum. He could've made those choices as town, and while I disagree with them, they would be his to make. It's a similar thought to my claiming what, and when, I did. Just because he, or Andrew, or anybody, disagrees with my choice or thinks it's a poor choice doesn't make me scum.

My follow up to that in C) is that regardless of his alignment, the overall claim works. Which is why it's such a solid scum claim and an unfortunate town one. I agree with you that pointing out or asking for justification on his blocking you won't make much difference. However I do think that going back and reading his response following my claim with the "knowledge" that he had just blocked me N1 is valid - it's a perspective we didn't have at the time it happened.

That said, doing exactly that has - for better or worse - lessened my scum read on him substantially. If you would like to know exactly why I would be happy to share. In the meantime:

vote: Chairs as my #1 choice. RR is a close second.

I would indeed like to know very much more about why you've suddenly lessened your scum read on him, but not until after his big defense. While I agree that his revealing he's a roleblocker does give insight into his actions at the start of day 2, and while the town!faust train of though does make sense, it could have easily gone the other way too; he suspects you're lying about not being a town PR in order to not get role blocked, so he votes you hoping to get a big enough wagon to make you reveal your real role and reveal your deceit.

vote: Chairs as my #1 choice. RR is a close second.

As I said, I'd much rather RR, but don't change just for me. Questions for you:

So you believe Chairs is bussing?
So you think the team is Chairs/RR/....Andrew? (If you agree on the first 2 people, keep in mind that once I can convince DatSwan that I'm not teamed with faust, that's 3 people who agree on 2 scum. Make of that what you will).

Chairs/RR/DatSwan, or Chairs/RR/Andrew would be my leading team based on PoE, yes. I'm not inclined to believe you're scum, and I know Teproc and I are not. Faust just dropped off the list based largely on that single post. I could absolutely be wrong about Raptor though - but I've felt he gets votes in the same way Jake did. It simply didn't and doesn't feel right.

Can somebody not as lazy as me produce a short vote history for each player throughout the game (better yet if it includes "stated would vote but hasn't")? If not I'll get around to looking at the people I'm most interested in at some point today. Deadline is 3:00pm forum time tomorrow though.

Skumpy: The problem, as you've noted, is the lack of any sort of consensus amongst town players. I'll lynch anybody except Teproc, Me, or you. My preferred order is pretty clear by now (Chairs, RR, Raptor?, DatSwan, Andrew, Faust*) - and Faust is only not #1 based entirely on that single post (Teproc's read plays a small part. At the very least I know it's not disingenuous, even if it's not right).

Here's a question for those interested in considering it (easier for Faust and I)

Vote Count 1.4

faust (1): Roadrunner7671
Robz888 (3): Galzria, chairs, Xxraptorslayer96
JaketheBaseballGod22 (5): faust, Robz888, The_Wine_Merchant, Skumpy, gkrieg13
Skumpy (1): JaketheBaseballGod22

Not voting (3): DatSwan, Teproc, AndrewisFTTW

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends Sunday, August 6 at 1:00 pm forum time. I am VLA till tomorrow,
 so the twilight will be quite long, sorry for any inconvenience.

If I believe Skumpy (If he's scum, scum wins) and Faust to be town (or him to believe so of me): The game started with 10 town, 3 scum. Teproc is town and not voting above. Do you believe 8 of the 9 entire remaining town comprise the entirety of the Robz/Jake wagon above? That's a hell of a consensus for town D1.

This is the end of day vote:

Vote Count 1.final:

Robz888 (7): Galzria, chairs, Xxraptorslayer96, Skumpy, gkrieg13, Roadrunner7671, Teproc
JaketheBaseballGod22 (3): faust, Robz888, The_Wine_Merchant
Skumpy (1): JaketheBaseballGod22

Not voting (2): DatSwan, AndrewisFTTW

The only notable addition is Roadrunner, but now there are 11 voters so there MUST be at least one scum voting. If Faust is town, I think it's highly improbable that all 8 players in the first count were town. This leaves possible scum in {Raptor, Chairs}. With the same assumption regarding Faust in the bottom vote, there IS at least one scum in {Raptor, Chairs, RR} - and unless you believe that BOTH {Andrew, DatSwan} are scum,  then it means that there's probably 2 scum in {Raptor, Chairs, RR}, and at least one in {Raptor, Chairs}.

That logic for Faust should be exactly the same if he believes I'm town. For everybody not!Faust/Galzria, it's obviously a little different. But still worth looking at.

As an expanded note: If I am unsure on Faust, I still have one scum in {Raptor, Chairs, RR, Faust} guaranteed, with 2 likely (unless DatSwan and Andrew are both scum).

Based on ALL of that (much of which is, I admit, a rehash of thoughts from before), I would still be happiest lynching Chairs, but could do Raptor or RR about equally.

Gonna look through D2 counts later today.

I should be around for the deadline, my only commitment today is 4 hours before it so I think I'm okay. I don't know how long before it I'll be around though, I might pop in pretty late.

vote: RR

Still think I prefer Chairs overall, but c'mon man... there's no effort here and it's killing us if you're town.

Here until deadline.

3rd vote on the RR lynch, immediately after mine (well, like 4 hours but there's nothing between the votes).

DAY 4

Faust targeted Me N1. He targeted Skumpy N2. Not Chairs.

Am I missing something?

No points for this, btw. Scum!Galz 100% points it out because he knows it will be noticed soon enough.

[Swowl]

Alright quick one before work....
So far we know that both MODS were on for XXR and he is gone. This means Doc and Responsible Friend was on (both confirmed by Faust and Skumpy).
When re reading roles - remember that these things are 100%!

While I want to say that I believe based on his merits that Andrew is telling the truth about being UB, it doesn't actually matter because either he is lying, or he is telling the truth and he has used his Powers out and the other MOD flip is dead.

Only remaining potential MODS are #3 and #4 (if we believe Andrew). Skumpy, confirmed lying, claimed to be Town MOD 4 and no one claimed it after him. MOD 3 pretty much has not been mentioned.

I am leaning towards Chairs since I have a towny feeling about Galz and Andrews information just seems to fit so perfectly. On the other hand, Andrew's info does fit like PERFECTLY, and the only feasible reason I can think of at this point given the way Galz has been playing for him to claim VT if he is not VT is because it was an attempt to protect a PR.
But again, I said before RR and Chairs, and I still lean towards that after re read.

[Galzria]

Only remaining potential MODS are #3 and #4 (if we believe Andrew). Skumpy, confirmed lying, claimed to be Town MOD 4 and no one claimed it after him. MOD 3 pretty much has not been mentioned.

I'm assuming you meant Raptor?

[Teproc]

Alright quick one before work....
So far we know that both MODS were on for XXR and he is gone. This means Doc and Responsible Friend was on (both confirmed by Faust and Skumpy).
When re reading roles - remember that these things are 100%!

While I want to say that I believe based on his merits that Andrew is telling the truth about being UB, it doesn't actually matter because either he is lying, or he is telling the truth and he has used his Powers out and the other MOD flip is dead.

Only remaining potential MODS are #3 and #4 (if we believe Andrew). Skumpy, confirmed lying, claimed to be Town MOD 4 and no one claimed it after him. MOD 3 pretty much has not been mentioned.

I am leaning towards Chairs since I have a towny feeling about Galz and Andrews information just seems to fit so perfectly. On the other hand, Andrew's info does fit like PERFECTLY, and the only feasible reason I can think of at this point given the way Galz has been playing for him to claim VT if he is not VT is because it was an attempt to protect a PR.
But again, I said before RR and Chairs, and I still lean towards that after re read.

What ANdrew says is relevant in that if you think he's lying that means he's scum... I don't follow your train og thought at all there.

We know eveyrthing there is to know about the setup. I mean yeah, we don't know if there's a Universal Backup, but that doesn't matter in any way ?

What do you mean about Galz and Andrew having info that fits perfectly ? Galz especially ? Fitting perfectly is normal, scum messing up their claim like XRaptor did is not something that normally happens.

And what's that about protecting a PR ? WHat ? I don't understand this post at all frankly.

[Teproc]

Like, this is not what you should be thinking about right now. What you should be thinking about is this: you have a 3-player lynch pool. We get two tries at getting the last scum. So you have two missions:
a) Find at least one townie in that three-player lynch pool
b) Convince the others townies that you are town

That's it. What mods are or are not in the game is irrelevant at this point, because you (the remaining townies) are all essentially VTs and the remaining mafia is a goon. Well, it's relevant in the sense of whether or not Andrew is lying, but the only thing left happening at night is scum killing and me possibly commuting.

So yeah, do think about whether ANdrew's claim is convincing or not, but that's muchy, much less important than their play. The way they interacted with people we know to be scum especially, and how those players interacted with them. There's a reason I gathered all of that info.

What townies need to now is to reread everyone left in the game. Well, except for me because you know I'm town.

[Teproc]

And it's especially irrelevant because we know this all, except for the Andrew part. 1 and 2 were in, 3 and 4 were not, 5 may or may not have been.

Maybe I'm totally misunderstanding what you're saying. You also said "I said before RR and chairs and I still lean towards that after re read. " and I don't know what that means either ?

[Galzria]

I'm gonna walk through my thought process for right now, and my preferred lynches, based on what we know.

Game start:

Mafia:
XxRaptor - Flavor Cop, 2-shot Roleblocker (MOD 1 & 2)
Roadrunner - 1-shot Psychtrooper (Base)
? - Goon

Town:
Teproc - IC (Base)
Faust - Roleblocker (MOD 2)
Skumpy - Doctor (MOD 1)
Gkrieg - 3-shot Alignment Cop (BASE)
Robz - VT
Jake - VT
TWM - VT

Unknown with claims:
Galzria: VT
DatSwan: VT
Chairs: VT
Andrew: Universal Backup (MOD 5)

We know the last Mafia is a Goon because nobody claimed the town PR's from MOD 3 or MOD 4.

Day 1:
No PR's have fired. We lynch Robz, BY.

Night 1:
If I'm scum, I fire my Psychotrooper shot this night. Our chances of actually shooting the Cop this night are as low as they can be. We don't expect Gkrieg to flip cop, and we assume at some point the Cop will claim. As we don't know when that will be, at least we've forced a bad result. There's almost no chance the Cop doesn't use his power (3 shots is a lot, especially for somebody who won't reasonably expect to see endgame (cop rarely does)). Nobody known to Roleblock, so we almost certainly Flavor Cop here. Who is a question I don't believe I could guess at though.

Day 2:
Gkrieg flips Alignment Cop. If MOD 5 is on, then scum know that the UB has just changed to Cop. I'll assume then that they didn't Flavor Cop Andrew (see further below). DatSwan and I claim VT this day. We lynch Jake (VT).

Night 2:
Andrew claims to have Copped DatSwan and gotten a result. Had he been Flavor Copped N1, there's a 0% chance scum didn't kill him or block him. If he's town, scum didn't know he was UB. I also don't believe they Flavor Copped Skumpy or Faust N1. See below.
Now, either scum believed DatSwan and my VT claim, or they didn't. If they did believe us, killing either of us makes no sense. If they don't believe us, risking their kill when they can flavor cop us would make no sense.
Had they Flavor Copped Faust/Skumpy/Andrew* N1, their options N2 would be: Block PR & Kill, or Kill PR and Flavor Cop. Option 2 is far more valuable, and as it didn't happen I'm inclined to believe they didn't Cop a PR N1.
My guess here is that they shot TWM amongst a group of {TWM, Andrew, Faust, Chairs, Skumpy}, and Flavor Copped amongst the same group plus Me/DatSwan. Based on the above thoughts, they probably Copped Me/DatSwan/Jake/Chairs N1. This is all slightly more likely if Andrew is scum than if Chairs/DatSwan are as it gives the biggest pool of VT's in which to investigate.

Day 3:
TWM flips VT. Faust claims Roleblocker. As Skumpy was Doctor and KNEW there was a scum Roleblocker in the game, this completely explains his unshakable read on Faust. We lynch RR (1-shot Psychtrooper and potential Cop Enabler).

Night 3:
Scum could've blocked Faust here. But they also knew there was a Doctor in the game. Had they known Skumpy was the Doctor by this point that would've been the absolute safest play (block Faust, shoot Skumpy who can't Doctor himself). This leads me to believe they didn't know Skumpy was a Doctor. If they knew Andrew was a Cop now, they also knew he had a result, but couldn't get more. They would've needed to weigh who to kill with who to block. This is where what I believe to be true and what could be true separate the most. In the end they killed Faust (Roleblocker), and either Roleblocked someone or Flavor Copped again.

Day 4:
Faust (Roleblocker) killed. Everybody claims. We lynch Raptor (Flavor Cop / 2-shot Roleblocker).

Night 4:
Obvious kill on Skumpy. Scum knew he was town, couldn't block him, and couldn't risk him stopping kills.

Overall thoughts:

It's possible scum used RR night 2 instead of night 1, but I would not have in their shoes. This leads me to believe DatSwan is more likely town.

Andrew's claim works as both scum and town. I don't agree with his choice N2 (doesn't make him scum), and as the role he's claimed, I'm not convinced he would "forget" that the matching scum MOD would be Cop Enabler. I don't follow that the night after RR was killed he would've tried to Cop me.

Chairs claim works as both scum and town. He was top of my list from a combination of reads and PoE from before, but RR and Raptor both landed scum from my PoE from before - so I want to do a re-assesment.

Gotta run for work. Will be back with more later.

[Teproc]

Re: psychotrooping N1: yeah you shoot it, because you're the kind of player that gets investigated on N1. I would too.

A team of RR/XRaptor/DatSwan (which is the only relevant thing re: Psychtrooper) would not, or at least there's a strong chance they wouldn't.

I have no idea why you're spending any time thinking about the rest. How is it relevant ? Don't answer that.

Actually there was a relevant part: ANdrew "forgetting" about Cop Enabler. He didn't forget, he seemed to think there could be multiple though. WHich is very weird, and you know what I think that means.

[Galzria]

Re: psychotrooping N1: yeah you shoot it, because you're the kind of player that gets investigated on N1. I would too.

A team of RR/XRaptor/DatSwan (which is the only relevant thing re: Psychtrooper) would not, or at least there's a strong chance they wouldn't.

I have no idea why you're spending any time thinking about the rest. How is it relevant ? Don't answer that.

Actually there was a relevant part: ANdrew "forgetting" about Cop Enabler. He didn't forget, he seemed to think there could be multiple though. WHich is very weird, and you know what I think that means.

This is incorrect. It's not a targeted ability. It flips any alignment cop result, regardless of where the Cop targeted. Scum shows town, town shows scum.

It wouldn't matter who they (or RR/Xx/Andrew, or RR/Xx/Chairs) thought might be copped. That's -arguably, but in my opinion- the optimal time to force a false result

[Galzria]

Role Clarifications:
- 1-shot Psychotrooper is an Active power. The night they choose to use it, the Alignment Cop will get the opposite result for their investigation (Scum instead of Town and Town instead of Scum).

[AndrewisFTTW]

I didn't forget about Cop Enabler. I just didn't see that if there was a Cop Enabler it would be Moving To a Different Location's role instead of simply random.

[Galzria]

OTOH... I'm not entirely sure why scum!Andrew would claim what he did to "clear" DatSwan when he could've claimed VT and left DS out of it.

[Swowl]

I gotta go with Chairs on this one so far. While Andrews blunder on the confusion of the MOD roles does raise questions because he is a vet, I just do not see him thinking he was going to "slip it past" someone like Galz or Teproc without it being caught (same logic as Galz pointing out XXR mistake as Town vs Mafia but in reverse).

Also, IMO the night where RR died is fishy. I am on Chairs, I am up to the rope, and whatever else is going on. Tep has obv voted for RR many times in the game so far. So, as Skum!XXR and Skum!Chairs having the whole vote, then "oh no I missed the deadline" thing seems like a good play after I pile on the L-1 Vote. Also, if I were him, my play right now would to be sit silent and wait for someone to call me out as he was labeled a few times throughout the game. Also, his claim as VT is super safe. I mean he COULD BE VT, but if you wanted to make sure to "re-XXR" the situation, it is the safe claim as no one can argue with it.

Furthermore, to the most recent point, Andrew claimed UB after the Chairs VT claim and is at least correct that I "went nowhere" N2. I also see the logic behind his "no result" claim from Galz in N3.

Chairs voted XXR on his lynch, but come on, what would you have done in that situation? XXR kind of sunk the ship on that one. If I had to guess - he is new, he had a thing written up based off previous day info, and then without thinking, posted it without reviewing.

Also... I am rambling I know, but no holding back now I guess... To visit a point made way earlier and more frequent in the game... It seems that if XXR is Skum he is being coached by Vets. Not to be offensive, but based on post frequency and interaction and stuff it would seem he did not have a lot of help... which leans me again towards Chairs. Not to mention RR was the other.

From the beginning Andrew has acted like I have acted towards Galz - this meaning we felt a little skummy towards him at first, and then it faded, and now it has faded more (or at least I am asssuming based on context, not to speak for you Andrew). As I am VT, I believe the logic and reasoning behind Andrews logic and reasoning towards Galz. This also continues to lean me towards Chairs.

All that in summary:
Vote: Chairs

[Teproc]

Galz, I never said Psychotrooping was targeted. I've modded this setup you know. Still relevant for them to think when rhey might be targeted, because a scum result on town is not as beneficial to them as a town result on scum. With that particular scumteqm, I would not have used it N1.

[Teproc]

DatSwan, I think you're confusing certain elements here.

a) Andrew inherited Cop, not Tracker. He didn't claim you "didn't go anywhere" on N2, he claimed he got a Town result on you. Regardless... you claimed VT, remember ? Town knows exactly what you did each night because you told them in the thread.

b) All claims are safe claims for scum. VT, Universal Backup, Watcher. Those are all safe claims, because scum knows exacly what the setup is. One is not more suspicious than the other

Which leads me to

c) Have you reread chairs ? Because what you get from that is about five thousand times more important than him claiming VT, or your general impressions on the game so far. WHen someone flips scum, reset, look at the game as if you hadn't been in it since know you have crucial new information.

I'm not entirely sure who I want to lynch yet. I've figured out one person I don't want to, but I'm not sure beyond that. Going into the night, I though "well we lynch chairs tomorrow and we probably win, easy peasy" but I'm a little wary now, and it doesn't seem to me like the you (Andrew and DatSwan) are making sure this is what we want to do. I mean, chairs hasn't even posted yet.

Rereading is annoying, and I'm sure you're annoyed at me because I'm bossing people around (something I tend to do anyway but being an IC makes it worse). I'm sorry about that. But I think rereading everyone alive (well, everyone who could be scum at least, you can probably skip me) should be a prerequisite before voting at this point in the game.

[Teproc]

"Town knows exactly..."  (in a)) should be "Scum/Everyone knows exactly..."