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[Galzria]

I am more inclined to vote galz, than Andrew specifically, after this exchange but would rather not as I have an inkling that this is town v town. And mostly the better lynches are xx, jake and maybe datswan.

Or chairs. But mostly jake.

I think DatSwan and Andrew are the best two lynches. The point I made... uh... 3 posts ago? 4? I don't recall. There was some point I made in there that made Jake read more scummy than I had been thinking before that would lead me to be willing to vote Jake.

Chairs I had a town read on d1... but man... I don't know. Now I just feel like I'm being hoodwinked. But that's more gut than logic. Roadrunner... well, I honestly couldn't tell you anything about him other than that his votes don't lead me to believe he's scum. XxRaptor.... I'm too biased to make a good read on right now. If I didn't know him at all I would think he was scummy - but I do. And my knowing him and his personality just leads me to believe he's not scum based on his play here.

It's a rough position to be in knowing people playing IRL. Part of why I passed on signing up for so long - but I certainly don't want ANYBODY to be swayed by my opinions on him - because they're almost entirely based on not-in-game-stuff. If you think he's scummy for in game reasons, vote for him.

[Galzria]

Also, TWM, while you're imbibing along with me, feel free to answer the below please:

Vote: Robz

Please compare this vote to the one that Skumpy casts below it. One is thought out, provides reasons and is committal. The other is empty and really, in my eyes a vote away from jake. At this point jake is at 5 votes. If xx had voted there it would have been 6. I had just asked people to explain why they weren't voting for either Robz or jake and this was xx's response apparently. No reason given for why not voting for jake. Or a reason for voting for Robz. Just a vote that dtracted from the larger wagon here.

Now I do think that if xx were scum (and jake not their partner) they would have voted jake there I think. But I have made that mistake before of thinking mafia would push lynches instead of intentionally avoiding them.

You are absolutely correct that Raptor's vote was far worse here. Anytime a vote is cast without reasoning behind it it's bad (ok, {exceptions, reasons}).

But let's assume Raptor IS scum for a moment as it's his bad vote in question:

- 8 hours (give or take) to deadline.
- Jake is at 5 votes
- Robz is at 2
- Nobody else is on radar.
- Scum!Raptor knows the alignment of both Jake & Robz

Questions:
- Does Jake's alignment matter here? If yes, how? Certainly if he's scum this vote makes sense from scum!Raptor. What if Jake is Town?
- Does scum, even newbie scum, place that vote with literally 0 justification? Do they not at least try to seem townie by doing it?
- If XxRaptor is scum, and Jake is scum, do you believe the third scum was also voting Robz, left bussing Jake, or not voting?
- If XxRaptor is scum and Jake is Town, do you believe all three scum were on Robz/Jake wagons? Why was the lynch so difficult to get through? If they're not all on the wagons, then one of {Andrew, DatSwan} would be scum, correct?

[Galzria]

This was the post I was referring to where I thought Jake was scummier than I had given him credit for being. More than "3-4 posts ago". But not that long ago. I've posted much recently.

Just did a full reread on TWM. Definitely moved WAY up my town list. That said, TWM, I'm not seeing the posts where you asked anything of Jake directly so... hard for him to respond. You quoted Teproc asking him a question d1... But also quoted his answer lol.

Also, I still like my DatSwan vote - but I had forgotten the exact reasons I seriously found Andrew scummy d1. I would strongly like to lynch one of these 2 (also, notably, the only 2 not voting at the end of d1, which I believe played part in why it was so hard to get a lynch through. I believe town was doing everything we could - we were just split over two wagons. Which is also why I'm not psyched about lynching Jake today).

As you mentioned to the thread for me... I was in Canada with no wifi connection, thus my lack of interaction.

That doesn't make you more or less likely to be town or scum. And I'm not criticising your lack of play d1 - but I do find your lack of participating d2 to be scummy, and more the few interactions that you've had I've found scummy.

If my interaction on D1 does not make me more or less likely to be skum then why feel the need to point out I was not voting at the end of D1? Again, and again, it just feels like you trying to take the heat off yourself and have people look elsewhere instead.

Also, not randomly claiming VT. I am new, but you kind of forced my hand into an explanation...IC.

As noted in my below post - because if you're town then either:

A) Andrew is the scum not voting either wagon at day's end (possible)

Or

B) Andrew is town as well and all 3 scum were voting on the two wagons.

Now, it's interesting to note that if Jake is scum he knew Robz was town and was intentionally nor voting him to appear off the wagon of a town flip. That IS more likely than town Jake voting off wagon of an unknown alignment player when the lynch was between them.

So that DOES cast a serious amount of suspicion back on Jake. But then for you and Andrew to both be town, again, all 3 scum would need to have been voting. This would implicate a Jake/Skumpy/X (not Xx, just X) team... With Skumpy already moving to derail the Jake lynch by going to Robz' wagon though, and Jake already intentionally placed off... I just don't see the missing scum as being likely on Robz wagon as well - unless they were there early. That would be {Chairs, Raptor, Galzria} to everybody.

But I still find myself finding 'X' here more likely to be off the Robz wagon, which brings me back to you and Andrew.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Now, you're statement - "I don't think it's unlikely that all 3 scum were on wagons", even including Jake per your latest post, means you believe that you (obviously) and DatSwan are town. To state otherwise is to simply say that your rebuttal to my analysis is simply "No, I think anybody could be scum". I'm at least TRYING to break down wagons and voting patterns based on the logic that Jake either IS or IS NOT scum.

I'm null on DatSwan. That does not mean I also think "anybody could be scum". It just simply means I don't necessarily think we should be auto-lynching off wagon.

Also all your analysis and conclusions regarding me are assuming that just because I posted a read of someone at one time means I still read them that way and that isn't really true. Everyone's reads change as the game progresses and mine have as well.

Not really interested in debating this further, it's gotten blown way out of proportion and it's really not that important anyway.

[Galzria]

Now, you're statement - "I don't think it's unlikely that all 3 scum were on wagons", even including Jake per your latest post, means you believe that you (obviously) and DatSwan are town. To state otherwise is to simply say that your rebuttal to my analysis is simply "No, I think anybody could be scum". I'm at least TRYING to break down wagons and voting patterns based on the logic that Jake either IS or IS NOT scum.

I'm null on DatSwan. That does not mean I also think "anybody could be scum". It just simply means I don't necessarily think we should be auto-lynching off wagon.

Also all your analysis and conclusions regarding me are assuming that just because I posted a read of someone at one time means I still read them that way and that isn't really true. Everyone's reads change as the game progresses and mine have as well.

Not really interested in debating this further, it's gotten blown way out of proportion and it's really not that important anyway.

Those are all quotes from d2.

And yes, you're correct of course that reads can change. But what you post is literally all anybody has to go off of. So that's what I'm going off of. Implying that those reads have no merit or value is incredibly disingenuous.

[Galzria]

Now, you're statement - "I don't think it's unlikely that all 3 scum were on wagons", even including Jake per your latest post, means you believe that you (obviously) and DatSwan are town. To state otherwise is to simply say that your rebuttal to my analysis is simply "No, I think anybody could be scum". I'm at least TRYING to break down wagons and voting patterns based on the logic that Jake either IS or IS NOT scum.

I'm null on DatSwan. That does not mean I also think "anybody could be scum". It just simply means I don't necessarily think we should be auto-lynching off wagon.

Also all your analysis and conclusions regarding me are assuming that just because I posted a read of someone at one time means I still read them that way and that isn't really true. Everyone's reads change as the game progresses and mine have as well.

Not really interested in debating this further, it's gotten blown way out of proportion and it's really not that important anyway.

Those are all quotes from d2.

And yes, you're correct of course that reads can change. But what you post is literally all anybody has to go off of. So that's what I'm going off of. Implying that those reads have no merit or value is incredibly disingenuous.

To be more clear:

If those aren't your opinions on people now, then if you don't want us to analyze your reads based off that you should give us newer, updated reads. Otherwise yes - it's completely fair for us to assume those to be accurate and to dissect them as stated

[AndrewisFTTW]

Now, you're statement - "I don't think it's unlikely that all 3 scum were on wagons", even including Jake per your latest post, means you believe that you (obviously) and DatSwan are town. To state otherwise is to simply say that your rebuttal to my analysis is simply "No, I think anybody could be scum". I'm at least TRYING to break down wagons and voting patterns based on the logic that Jake either IS or IS NOT scum.

I'm null on DatSwan. That does not mean I also think "anybody could be scum". It just simply means I don't necessarily think we should be auto-lynching off wagon.

Also all your analysis and conclusions regarding me are assuming that just because I posted a read of someone at one time means I still read them that way and that isn't really true. Everyone's reads change as the game progresses and mine have as well.

Not really interested in debating this further, it's gotten blown way out of proportion and it's really not that important anyway.

Those are all quotes from d2.

And yes, you're correct of course that reads can change. But what you post is literally all anybody has to go off of. So that's what I'm going off of. Implying that those reads have no merit or value is incredibly disingenuous.

Didn't mean to imply that. Most of those reads are the same. But that post about chairs, for example, was really reacting to that one post of his. Since then I haven't really felt one way or another about chairs. Roadrunner I was debating at the time and I'm still not really sure if what he did at the end of D1 is towny or not. As for my response to faust's post on Jake, I think I was mainly referring to the first two lines, because I share townreads of TWM and Skumpy, but yeah I wouldn't have a problem with a Jake lynch. I understand you wouldn't know all of this since I wasn't very clear and hadn't updated my reads since then.

[Galzria]

Hum....

Back to vote: DatSwan for now.

I do believe that there was scum not voting. I simply don't believe we struggled that much to get things moving with all 3 scum on board.  And there's a laundry list of reasons I've found Andrew scummy.... But like yesterday the more I've pushed him the less I've wanted to lynch him.

I disagree with a lot of what he's said, but at the very least he's not backed down from defending himself - and that's worth something.

[Roadrunner7671]

I think DatSwam is scummy for his claim. It's too easy for a newbie to 'accidentally' claim when they didn't realize they shouldn't. Rather than a town blunder, I'm much more inclined to believe that this is a calculated scum idea. This leads me to believe that Galz is also scum, and they're in kahoots when it comes to claiming for no reason.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

Cahoots. Hehe.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

Galz. I saw your post and will work on a reply when my reading skills get back to normal.

[Swowl]

I think DatSwam is scummy for his claim. It's too easy for a newbie to 'accidentally' claim when they didn't realize they shouldn't. Rather than a town blunder, I'm much more inclined to believe that this is a calculated scum idea. This leads me to believe that Galz is also scum, and they're in kahoots when it comes to claiming for no reason.

In case there was some miscommunication...

1) I did NOT accidentally claim VT. I meant to claim VT, I just did not realize that it would have a negative effect on my townsfolk. I thought I had been pretty straightforward with my thoughts so far. So while yeah, in hindsight, claiming my role probably didn't help my team all too much.. I do want to reiterate to fellow townies... I claimed VT because I am VT. Not by mistake.

2) If you are town, I would invite you to go back and re read Galz. Whether VT or not VT, his initial VT claim had one goal and that was to stir the pot. If he is scum-hunting he wanted to beat the bush, great. If he is scum he wanted to gain info as much as possible in order to ward off scummy vibes as the game continues. Far more to gain as skum opposed to town IMO.

3) On a much less substantial note.... While I appreciate the high fives and back pats... Andrew seems very scummy to me.

4) If we lynch someone other than Galz or Jake, they are probably going to bus Galz or Jake.

5) Don't forget this shit. #GoTownies

[The_Wine_Merchant]

Also, TWM, while you're imbibing along with me, feel free to answer the below please:

Vote: Robz

Please compare this vote to the one that Skumpy casts below it. One is thought out, provides reasons and is committal. The other is empty and really, in my eyes a vote away from jake. At this point jake is at 5 votes. If xx had voted there it would have been 6. I had just asked people to explain why they weren't voting for either Robz or jake and this was xx's response apparently. No reason given for why not voting for jake. Or a reason for voting for Robz. Just a vote that dtracted from the larger wagon here.

Now I do think that if xx were scum (and jake not their partner) they would have voted jake there I think. But I have made that mistake before of thinking mafia would push lynches instead of intentionally avoiding them.

You are absolutely correct that Raptor's vote was far worse here. Anytime a vote is cast without reasoning behind it it's bad (ok, {exceptions, reasons}).

But let's assume Raptor IS scum for a moment as it's his bad vote in question:

- 8 hours (give or take) to deadline.
- Jake is at 5 votes
- Robz is at 2
- Nobody else is on radar.
- Scum!Raptor knows the alignment of both Jake & Robz

Questions:
- Does Jake's alignment matter here? If yes, how? Certainly if he's scum this vote makes sense from scum!Raptor. What if Jake is Town?
- Does scum, even newbie scum, place that vote with literally 0 justification? Do they not at least try to seem townie by doing it?
- If XxRaptor is scum, and Jake is scum, do you believe the third scum was also voting Robz, left bussing Jake, or not voting?
- If XxRaptor is scum and Jake is Town, do you believe all three scum were on Robz/Jake wagons? Why was the lynch so difficult to get through? If they're not all on the wagons, then one of {Andrew, DatSwan} would be scum, correct?

OK. I can read good. I am assuming Raptor is scum. Gotcha.

1. Does Jake's alignmetn matter here. If he is scum, it makes sense. You already said that. I agree. If he is town. I feel like I already talked about this. But if he is town then I would personally anticipate that Raptor would be more likely to vote for Jake as that was the largest wagon. But I have made the mistake of assuming that is what scum would do (it is what I would do as scum). However, I think some scum approach the game of trying to avoid being any center of attention, including being on what looked to be the likeliest lynch wagon. But it could also just be him being town. But I don't know.

2. Does newbie scum vote with no justification? I have no idea. Probably depends on personality. I wouldn't, I think.

3. Um. If they are both scum? I would guess voting Robz or not voting. But I don't know which. I feel like you are trying to lead me into your Andrew and Datswan theory which if good should stand on its own and not require leading me like this.

4. If raptor is scum and Jake is town that means he went to Robz, probably at a time when there wasn't others on the Robz wagon. As only someone was voting Robz. Who? galz and chairs. So those two probalby aren't patners. but I am not super confident about that. Oh wait, Jake is town. So I would say one on Jake, one on Robz (Raptor) and another on Jake or off Jake. Again, this feels like leading me to your other conclusion.

Did I do it right? I understand what you are saying with Andrew and Datswan, but I feel like the context of others not being around is significant. faust could be scum. RR I don't think should actually be getting the town cred he is getting for showing up and lynching Robz. Who as mafia doesn't say no to a lynch of a townie (that could be a PR, who knows?) with basically everyone, including the IC saying "LYNCH HIM!!!" That is a scotch free hammer. chairs could be scum. you could be scum.

Basically I feel that Datswan and Andrew have same likliehood of being scum as the rest of the players all things being equal when only considering the wagon breakdown. I am more interesting in looking at what players are saying and doing.

[Swowl]

It's a rough position to be in knowing people playing IRL. Part of why I passed on signing up for so long - but I certainly don't want ANYBODY to be swayed by my opinions on him - because they're almost entirely based on not-in-game-stuff. If you think he's scummy for in game reasons, vote for him.
[/quote]


skummy.
vote: Galzria

[Swowl]

also.. evidently I am drunk and suck at quoting

[LaLight]

Vote Count 2.3

Galzria (4): faust, JaketheBaseballGod22, AndrewisFTTW, DatSwan
JaketheBaseballGod22 (1): Roadrunner7671
DatSwan (1): Galzria
The_Wine_Merchant (1): Xxraptorslayer96
Xxraptorslayer96 (2): The_Wine_Merchant, chairs

Not voting (2): Skumpy, Teproc

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 1 ends Wednesday, August 16 at 2:30 pm forum time.

[Skumpy]

Warning: Long post ahead, full of stream-of-consciousness thought. Reader discretion is advised.

I've done a lot of reading, mostly of Galz's posts, which now completely blur in my mind. Here are my thoughts.

Trusting is hard for me, but I think I officially have to give TWM townie cred. I will hate him forever if he's scum, because he has played a masterful game otherwise, especially with that very strong post defending me and saving me from death. Everything he has said just feels correct and agrees with what I'm thinking. Which is what I said about Robz, but whatever. If he's scum, I don't think there's anything we can do it about - at least I'm not the only one who's been hoodwinked. So I will write this post assuming he's town. If he's scum, this has been the biggest waste of time in my entire life thus far.

If Jake is scum: Then I think the max wagon on him had to be all town. I don't remember if I actually said/wrote it, but I was definitely thinking when faust was leaving that his vote would carry twice the weight since it was a fixed vote. Between that and the jake/faust beef earlier, I feel confident in saying there is at least 1 town in those two. Keep in mind there have been a bunch who have drifted on and off the jake wagon: Raptor, Chairs, and RR (remember, he said he would rather Jake than Robz, but didn't vote until there was no option).

If jake is town: Then faust is far from cleared. If there were two town wagons, nothing really mattered. I've got a lot to think about, so I'll skip this for a little bit.

There've been just so many people flying under the radar today that some them have to be scum. I can't remember any significant value Chairs had added. faust has been getting off pretty easy since the initial wagon - he's been vocal like Galzria, but not controversial like Galzria, which I find interesting. RR's been happy to fly under the radar, casting an important day 1 vote only once the hammer was needed, and sticking to Jake pretty heavily today. Datswan, not a lot of posts, though is he starting to get some attention.

Some more thoughts that won't be read:
DatSwan's post where he claims VT feels townie. If he's experienced, he could be playing us.

I don't think I want Galzria lynched today - he's definitely generating a lot of discussion. Having said that, he's so many interactions with so many people that it could be very revealing, regardless of alignment (I like Jake's theory about a Galzria/Skumpy team. Sadly, it's incorrect though). But Galzria's opinions just...don't feel right. I find it unlikely Andrew or DatSwan is scum, maybe I'm wrong. I get where he's coming from with the Jake-town-slow-lynch-maifa-offwagon theory, but that's assuming Jake's town in the first place.

Raptor and I have had just completely opposite reads (other than Robz, who was town). Let's assume there's a Raptor/Jake team - it's possible he would have been told to vote Jake at the start of the day for bussing sake, then left it quickly. Eh, it seems unlikely. That was a very strange and obvious vote on Robz though. Especially since he'd just prompted gkrieg for reasoning on Jake, then gave none of his own for Robz.

Since I want to give Galz the benefit of the doubt...that would mean Galz, TWM, Robz, and gkrieg are all town? Which would mean the entire scum team is probably either young and/or inexperienced (unless faust or someone is scum)? And they're doing very well for it.

Chairs: Like Galzria, I'm losing my town feeling on him. He mentioned he's very awkward as scum. Well, he feels pretty awkward now...

RR: Just no thoughts on anybody. He's been tunneling Jake, he's been back on forth on me, and he felt Galzria and DatSwan were scummy. That's it. And just so low on everybody's radar too. His necessary hammer is essentially a no-vote, with respect to Galz's theories.

Since everyone seems to have forgotten me saying: I alluded at the start of the day to a small, not very noticeable comment in day 1 by somebody here which I found rather revealing. But I'd rather not say who or what yet unless it's necessary, as I could be reading too much into it. Plus I think I want to keep said person around a little longer, just to keep an eye on them....



So in conclusion: still not so sure. Chairs,RR,faust? But then again, XX! But Galzria's been so weird! And what about Jake? It's tough, you see.

I was about to hit 'post' and put my faith in TWM and drop a sick vote on RaptorSlayer up in here. Him flipping scum would be revealing. Him flipping town, not so much. I'm ok with voting him if it's necessary

Then I thought a little more.

Vote: RR

Wagon number 6 is a-go! Reasoning: I really think one of Jake and RR is scum.

If Jake is scum - well, that explains why he was such a hard lynch. You could also make a case for RR being a partner who was reluctant to push him over the top, though I kinda doubt it. And if he is scum, well that would throw suspicion on XX, Galz, and Chairs for starting the lynch on Robz. Chairs and XX both started the day with a bus on him, but it didn't last long. And Galz has been working hard to save him from the hangman's noose.

If RR is scum, I think it's worthwhile including him on Galz's Andrew/DatSwan list of nonvoters at the deadline. No reason to push anything, but hey, why not get Robz out of the way if possible. Jake's an easy lynch, it makes sense to not commit to him and hope someone would set Robz up for the kill (that was me. Sorry about that). Since that suggests scum was likely on both wagons, that would seem to implicate faust. I think it's very risky of faust as scum to place a fixed vote on a fellow scum 3 days before the deadline, so I highly doubt a faust/jake team.

I don't know, I doubt this will amount to a lynch. Feel free to try and convince me otherwise, I'm all ears. I would be interested to hear a possible team of 3 that doesn't include RR or Jake though. I think the best we can do now is try to find a pair of 2 people where 1 of them is very likely scum, and make sure we don't mislynch on both days 2 and 3.

[faust]

Right. Let's just let totally scummy behavior get a complete pass and instead. Let's lynch the townies that are actually scum hunting and playing the game. Cause that is totally going to work.

Look at what Jake has done today and yesterday. Answer=nothing. Teproc, are you ok with Jake completely ignoring my questions to him? Is that something you are ok with letting pass? Instead, let's lynch Galz or faust or me, who even if they (I am not) are scum, are at least doing townie things. Right? I mean, the Robz lynch yesterday was flat out bad. He hadn't done anything scummy and was playing, but some how became the default lynch because, well, I don't really know why.

It is too bad. Too damn bad.

This drunk speaks the truth.

I wasn't drunk when I wrote that! - - - - Yet.

You're a Wine Merchant...

[chairs]

scum to chum:
DatSwan OR Galz (I don't think they're partners)
Raptor
Jake
Andrew
RR
faust
(The other of DatSwan or Galz once one flips)
Skumpy
TWM

[JaketheBaseballGod22]

Skumpy, I see what your saying about RR and flying low is his scum meta sooo, yeah I could see him being scum here. Skumpy is much more towny today to me than he was yesterday.

[Teproc]

Right. Let's just let totally scummy behavior get a complete pass and instead. Let's lynch the townies that are actually scum hunting and playing the game. Cause that is totally going to work.

Look at what Jake has done today and yesterday. Answer=nothing. Teproc, are you ok with Jake completely ignoring my questions to him? Is that something you are ok with letting pass? Instead, let's lynch Galz or faust or me, who even if they (I am not) are scum, are at least doing townie things. Right? I mean, the Robz lynch yesterday was flat out bad. He hadn't done anything scummy and was playing, but some how became the default lynch because, well, I don't really know why.

It is too bad. Too damn bad.

This drunk speaks the truth.

I wasn't drunk when I wrote that! - - - - Yet.

You're a Wine Merchant...

Anything else to add faust ?

@Jake: Why is Galz scum ?

[The_Wine_Merchant]

Right. Let's just let totally scummy behavior get a complete pass and instead. Let's lynch the townies that are actually scum hunting and playing the game. Cause that is totally going to work.

Look at what Jake has done today and yesterday. Answer=nothing. Teproc, are you ok with Jake completely ignoring my questions to him? Is that something you are ok with letting pass? Instead, let's lynch Galz or faust or me, who even if they (I am not) are scum, are at least doing townie things. Right? I mean, the Robz lynch yesterday was flat out bad. He hadn't done anything scummy and was playing, but some how became the default lynch because, well, I don't really know why.

It is too bad. Too damn bad.

This drunk speaks the truth.

I wasn't drunk when I wrote that! - - - - Yet.

You're a Wine Merchant...

A wine merchant who drinks his wares is not a wine merchant for long.

[Galzria]

Teproc, what do you think of the point I made regarding Jake not being on Robz at the end of d1? We were looking for a lynch and struggling to get it... those were the two wagons... by choosing not to be on Robz he certainly wasn't helping us get there (same as DatSwan & Andrew) - but his position as the other wagon feels a lot worse for the choice.

I dunno. I put together a lot yesterday and then after sleeping on everything that position at end of day feels really off. Like he knew Robz was town and didn't want to be on the wagon to avoid suspicion if Robz was lynched. A no lynch wouldn't have hurt scum!Jake there, and if he really needed to he could've flipped his vote back to Robz at any time.

[Teproc]

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying.

Jake was absent, he didn't post in the whole weekend leading up to the lynch. Maybe that's indicative of alignment, but you act as if he purposefully chose not to be on Robz: there's no indication that this is the case, is there ?

Your second paragraph also seems completely contradictory to me ? What are you saying exactly ?

[Galzria]

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying.

Jake was absent, he didn't post in the whole weekend leading up to the lynch. Maybe that's indicative of alignment, but you act as if he purposefully chose not to be on Robz: there's no indication that this is the case, is there ?

Your second paragraph also seems completely contradictory to me ? What are you saying exactly ?

Ah, didn't realize he was also away. That makes looking at positioning for people extremely awkward.