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[The_Wine_Merchant]

A lot of people expressed surprise from Galz's VT claim but not so many reads. Does anybody else think Galz would never claim VT as town?

Never? I can't think of a reason why anyone would never do something. Granted he, hasn't fully explained why he claimed VT (at least as far as I can remember), but I for one haven't felt the need to ask him at this juncture. Maybe in the future.

Ok but do you really think it was something town!Galz is more likely to do?

I don't think I have enough data to determine that. But I think if galz did it, he did it with a reason. I do want to hear the reason at some point, but probably not right now.

[AndrewisFTTW]

OK so here is the thing - I am VT. I don't really see the point in saying it because obv everyone is going to make there own decisions, but there it is. I had to look up what "lurking" meant lol.
If it has come off as such to anyone, I would like to say my reasoning behind being subtle so far is only because of my inexperience in the game. Watching and reading and gathering is pretty much all I have been able to maintain, and even then I find it overwhelming (fun, but still a lot).

I am still fine tuning this weird situation where I want to point out "skummy" behavior without making it seem like I am in fact skum. Not because I care if I get lynched because if we win as town we win as town, whatever... but because I want the points to be taken into good consideration.

Galzria could go either way. He is a random dude from what I am reading. I would note he seems to be making certain topics focus on things that he wants to talk about, and ignoring the others, which is skummy, but all in all whatever.

TWM says he doesn't care and doesn't want to put in time and etc, but then types up novels... weird.

I think that Xx is skum. I have no reasoning for it other then what I am perceiving from convos. It would seem to me that as he introduced himself as new in the beginning it would be an easy play to have a vet coach him to be a slow player and manipulate the conversations to their advantage.

That's my 2 cents.

Unvote

This is good. More posts like this!

[AndrewisFTTW]

I mean, besides the VT claim. That sucks.

[AndrewisFTTW]

With this belief, scum could be anywhere. On either wagon, or off either wagon. But I don't see that it's likely that all 3 were on both wagons and yet we still struggled to get a lynch through. Hence my strong belief that there is at least one scum amongst {DatSwan, Andrew}.

I don't think it's unlikely that all 3 scum were on wagons. And if they were I don't think it would necessarily have made the lynch easier. so I disagree with your conclusion.

[Galzria]

Surprise!

[Swowl]

Actual question - if I am VT does he claim still hurt town iyo?

[Swowl]

Above at Andrew

[The_Wine_Merchant]

Actual question - if I am VT does he claim still hurt town iyo?

Yes. Scum at night is primarily trying to hunt for PRs to eliminate them as PRs are the biggest threat. When a town player claims VT scum knows their alignment and knows they are unlikely to be lying, therefore they can use process of elimination to night kill other players that have not claimed as they are more likely to be a PR than the claimed player.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

To put it another way, one role (relatively weak, but can be very important) that Mafia often has is a "Role Cop" where they can learn the role of another player they target. Claiming VT is basically giving mafia a free "Role Cop" night action for the night before.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Galz your whole argument is basically "Let's lynch off wagon!", disguised in a couple posts filled with text. It's not exactly creative, nor is it effective. It's also your way of OMGUS without just coming out and voting me immediately. Way to beat around the bush.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Actual question - if I am VT does he claim still hurt town iyo?

Yes. Scum at night is primarily trying to hunt for PRs to eliminate them as PRs are the biggest threat. When a town player claims VT scum knows their alignment and knows they are unlikely to be lying, therefore they can use process of elimination to night kill other players that have not claimed as they are more likely to be a PR than the claimed player.

^Exactly why you don't prematurely claim. Galz knows this. Town!Galz would not do this.

[Skumpy]

Pre-hopefulBigReadLaterOn:

Is it a XX/Galzria team? It seems too simple.

Watch it just end up being something like faust/Chairs/RR and they just let town massacre themselves.

[Galzria]

Galz your whole argument is basically "Let's lynch off wagon!", disguised in a couple posts filled with text. It's not exactly creative, nor is it effective. It's also your way of OMGUS without just coming out and voting me immediately. Way to beat around the bush.

Yes, it is. It's not disguised, and it's not OMGUS as my suspicion of you isn't exactly new (see all of d1).

Your dismissal without justification or reasoning - simply "no, you're wrong, and you're scum" gives no value or credence to your opinion. My post looked at and analyzed both possible situations. Your response was "No, you're wrong." - and then you claim I'm being uncreative. Lol. Try harder.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

Actual question - if I am VT does he claim still hurt town iyo?

Yes. Scum at night is primarily trying to hunt for PRs to eliminate them as PRs are the biggest threat. When a town player claims VT scum knows their alignment and knows they are unlikely to be lying, therefore they can use process of elimination to night kill other players that have not claimed as they are more likely to be a PR than the claimed player.

^Exactly why you don't prematurely claim. Galz knows this. Town!Galz would not do this.

So would Scum!Galz. I think Galz of either alignment had a reason. And not just a "this won't get me lynched" reason if he is scum. Scum!Galz would have a reason. Town!Galz would have a reason, I have to think.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Galz your whole argument is basically "Let's lynch off wagon!", disguised in a couple posts filled with text. It's not exactly creative, nor is it effective. It's also your way of OMGUS without just coming out and voting me immediately. Way to beat around the bush.

Yes, it is. It's not disguised, and it's not OMGUS as my suspicion of you isn't exactly new (see all of d1).

Your dismissal without justification or reasoning - simply "no, you're wrong, and you're scum" gives no value or credence to your opinion. My post looked at and analyzed both possible situations. Your response was "No, you're wrong." - and then you claim I'm being uncreative. Lol. Try harder.

I didn't say you're wrong, though you are wrong about be being scum. I just said your logic is flawed and you're spending a lot of time and effort trying to make people think you've spent time thinking this through when really all you're doing is saying "let's lynch off wagon" which, as I said, is not creative. It is however deceiving, maybe intentionally, and oh so scummy.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Actual question - if I am VT does he claim still hurt town iyo?

Yes. Scum at night is primarily trying to hunt for PRs to eliminate them as PRs are the biggest threat. When a town player claims VT scum knows their alignment and knows they are unlikely to be lying, therefore they can use process of elimination to night kill other players that have not claimed as they are more likely to be a PR than the claimed player.

^Exactly why you don't prematurely claim. Galz knows this. Town!Galz would not do this.

So would Scum!Galz. I think Galz of either alignment had a reason. And not just a "this won't get me lynched" reason if he is scum. Scum!Galz would have a reason. Town!Galz would have a reason, I have to think.

Scum!Galz's reason is to make people dismiss as something Scum!Galz would never do. Yes, major WIFOM but seriously. What vet does this as town?

[AndrewisFTTW]

And Galz's condescending attitude isn't doing him any favors either, bee tee dubs.

[Galzria]

Let's look at Andrew's opinion:

"I don't think it's unlikely that all 3 scum were on wagons"

- So, Andrew, Jake and DatSwan are town. Good to know. And Teproc. And Robz and Gkrieg. Holy **** this is easy.
- Good. Now we just need 3 scum in 7: Roadrunner, Galzria, XxRaptor, TWM, Skumpy, Faust & Chairs.
- 5/7 of us were on Robz. TWM & faust were on Jake.
- Is TWM Scum? No? Is faust? Then the entire scum team was voting Robz! Man, this gets easier and easier!
- Right. Here we go. Let's figure out the entire scum team that's voting Robz. Oh, wait...

"I don't think it would necessarily have made the lynch easier"

You're right. 3 scum being together on one townie taking 7 to lynch REALLY doesn't make getting that lynch through easier....

Haha. The logic is ridiculous. vote: Andrew. I'll still do DatSwan, but between that, his "logic" from the opening of d1, and his "knowing" I'm town d1... yeah, I'm good here.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Uhhh I never said TWM and faust were definitely town. And I'm not convinced Jake and DatSwan are town either. All I said was I wouldn't be surprised if all 3 scum were voting. When I said "I don't think it's unlikely that all 3 scum were on wagons" I meant that to mean everyone voting, so including Jake. Also, like I said you're being condescending and trying to make me look like some idiot, which I don't appreciate and which I'm not doing to you. So please cut that out.

[JaketheBaseballGod22]

How about this. Jake, what do you think of XXraptor. Please be as specific as possible and reference a post or two for why you feel a certain way, whether that is town, scum or null. Thx

Ok. I feel null on XXraptor. I feel pretty much the same way with him about Galz, so I like this post.

And scum!you has a history of premature fakeclaims.

This has been bothering me as well. Because you stated it as fact to a group of players that are relatively new (and even many of the non-new haven't played with me) - and it's categorically false. It's based on a single game where the timing and use of the claim single handily carried me throughout the game to a victory for my faction. It was perfectly placed, and perfectly executed. It worked, and we won.

I'm not sure what the point of this is, or how it shows that M100 was different from now.

The point was more that you used an example erroneously to portray me in a scummy light - by giving a false representation of a claim made in a different game where I WAS scum and comparing it to here where I'm not.

M/100-- Galz + Early claim = scum
M/105-- Galz + Early claim = ? ? ?

I find you claiming early a strange move. Obviously more valuables than shown. But you could be trying to recreate a move from a previous game. I think you are smarter then that. But why did you claim unprovoked what so ever?

I don't get how you can have reads on everyone so far so I don't like this reads list.

D2 reads

Scum
Skumpy -he just still comes off as odd to me from D1. 
DatSwan- Similar reasons as Galz. I thought he would be more active and aggressive. seems to be flying under the radar
TWM- I dont understand his attitude
Jake?? - No defense from from his wagon is a bold move.

Town
Galz
Andrew
RR
Chairs
Teproc
Fraust

* all seem if have sound reasoning behind votes do not come if as suspicious atm.

I will try to contribute more to convos, sorry for lurking

This post makes no sense

Vote: TWM

I don't understand your angle. Maybe taking the heat off jake?

This and a vote on me are everyone one of his posts from D2. This post makes sense to me.

Almost caught up. Just wanted to say I agree on those town reads, at least Skumpy and TWM. Skumpy I don't think can make up everything he's been saying as scum. TWM is overly-dramatic as usual, that means he's town. chairs I'm not really sure about.

I think you underestimate me. Or maybe I overestimate myself.

Oh so you ARE scum?

sigh. *If I ever am skum*. I'd like to think I can be crafty enough to make fake reads.


I'm not so sure how I feel anymore about a Jake lynch. He's not my number 1 suspect anymore, but his death maybe could help some regardless of how he reveals. Which is also a good reason to vote me, but let's not worry about that right now. I'm not going to help with a quicklynch, but I'm a willing voter if the deadline approaches.

XX, why did you vote Jake over me?

I guess I'm still just giving you space to see how you play, arguments were semi compelling in on D1 that you were town. You still throw me as odd but rather keep you around if you truly are town

Jake also jusy throws me as odd but he has yet to prove he's not scum to me in any way. Vote will likely change but I don't mind casting my vote towards him as now.

Overall there just isn't enough content from XX for me to develop a read on him so far. So null.

[Galzria]

Uhhh I never said TWM and faust were definitely town. And I'm not convinced Jake and DatSwan are town either. All I said was I wouldn't be surprised if all 3 scum were voting. When I said "I don't think it's unlikely that all 3 scum were on wagons" I meant that to mean everyone voting, so including Jake. Also, like I said you're being condescending and trying to make me look like some idiot, which I don't appreciate and which I'm not doing to you. So please cut that out.

It's not condescension - it's that your logic doesn't follow, and hasn't been thought out. You're making statements to just make them, hoping they'll stick.

The wagon at peak on Jake was:

Vote Count 1.4

faust (1): Roadrunner7671
Robz888 (3): Galzria, chairs, Xxraptorslayer96
JaketheBaseballGod22 (5): faust, Robz888, The_Wine_Merchant, Skumpy, gkrieg13
Skumpy (1): JaketheBaseballGod22

Not voting (3): DatSwan, Teproc, AndrewisFTTW

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends Sunday, August 6 at 1:00 pm forum time. I am VLA till tomorrow,
 so the twilight will be quite long, sorry for any inconvenience.

The end of day looked like this:

Vote Count 1.final:

Robz888 (7): Galzria, chairs, Xxraptorslayer96, Skumpy, gkrieg13, Roadrunner7671, Teproc
JaketheBaseballGod22 (3): faust, Robz888, The_Wine_Merchant
Skumpy (1): JaketheBaseballGod22

Not voting (2): DatSwan, AndrewisFTTW

Robz was town. Jake is unknown, but is 1 of 2 alignments. Either he IS town, or he IS scum. There are no other options.

Now, you're statement - "I don't think it's unlikely that all 3 scum were on wagons", even including Jake per your latest post, means you believe that you (obviously) and DatSwan are town. To state otherwise is to simply say that your rebuttal to my analysis is simply "No, I think anybody could be scum". I'm at least TRYING to break down wagons and voting patterns based on the logic that Jake either IS or IS NOT scum.

Now, options 1 and options 2.

1) Jake is scum

1.A) He was being bussed early in the day, he was being bussed later in the day:
- If Jake was being bussed early by somebody that left wagon, the only option is Skumpy, as Gkrieg flipped town. You have a town read on Skumpy (see your reads posted at the bottom - directly quoted).
- If Jake was being bussed early by somebody that did NOT leave the wagon, then you're looking at faust or TWM. TWM you have a stated town read on (see below), and faust you've continually agreed with (see below).

1.B) He wasn't bussed.
- This then puts the two remaining scum here: Galzria, chairs, Xxraptorslayer96, Skumpy, gkrieg13, Roadrunner7671
- Gkrieg was town. Skumpy you have a town read on. Roadrunner you have a town read on. So from your perspective, the scum team (if Jake is scum) is: Jake/Galzria/XxRaptor (or Chairs)

2) Jake is town

2.A) Scum was voting Jake at some point
- First off, to match your "I don't think it's unlikely that all 3 scum were on wagons", then scum would need to have been split either 2-1, or 3-0. Neither of which fits your follow up thought that "I don't think it would necessarily have made the lynch easier" - that's EXACTLY what scum voting would've done here if Jake is town. They were giving one of the wagons between 2 and 3 votes if they're all onboard!
- Again, it doesn't appear you think TWM or faust are scum based on your previous posts, so we'll need to disregard them. Same goes for Skumpy. So you don't seem to think that scum was voting for Jake. And in this scenario, Jake is town, so he's out too. Plus Robz who was town and Gkrieg, and we're left with... Galzria, chairs, Xxraptorslayer96, Roadrunner7671... but you also have a town read on Roadrunner. So if Jake is town, your scum team is: Galzria/Chairs/XxRaptor.

Now, you've never gone through and spelled all that out, but it's ok. So yeah, based on all the above everything you've said matches 100%. You don't think it's unlikely that all the scum were voting, because all the scum were {Galzria} + 2 of {Chairs/XxRaptor/Jake}. Do I have that right?


Listed below are your current reads:

TWM, Town:

Well I do think TWM is acting towny, but if Galz flips scum I'll be looking at TWM.

Chairs, scummy:

But then why would scum be trying to no lynch if they could just get a mislynch instead? I DON'T UNDERSTAND.

Ok I missed a bunch of stuff yesterday so I'm catching up again. This^ however, I find very scummy. Holding off on a vote until I catch up completely. Also, as of the end of page 20 I'm not feeling a Jake Lynch simply b cause he's not contributing much. I'm not contributing much either, that doesn't make me scum.

---> Which leads to Jake, back and forth (see above), then:

About Jake. This is his wagon at peak:

JaketheBaseballGod22 (5): faust, Robz888, The_Wine_Merchant, Skumpy, gkrieg13

Both players who since flipped town are on there. I am town, of course you don't know that, and I have town reads on TWM and Skumpy. So it is very much possible that this is an all-town wagon. Which is definitely interesting for an easy mislynch like Jake.

It also was not a quick wagon, but happened over the course of a hundred posts, plenty of time for scum to join in unsuspiciously.

So yeah, combined with the 1-shot Commuter thing (which I remember at the beginning of the game and then forgot) that I think makes Galzria more likely to be town, I am ready to vote: Jake again.

^I agree with all this. Good work faust.

I meant Jake is NOT doing anything I wouldn't expect Jake to do.

RoadRunner: Town

I wanted to point out that RR is townie for his last-minute vote. I think scum!RR is more likely to let the deadline pass and force a no-lynch than to be the decisive vote on a town wagon.

I don't think so. If scum!RR has a chance to hammer town then he'll go for it. Also:

I'd rather lynch Jake than Robz, although no one really seems like a good lynch candidate for today. It's been sort of a slow D1 for me.

He says he prefers a Jake lynch but doesn't put his vote there, then disappears until the hammer. So I guess you could point to him maybe protecting a partner? But on the other hand he could've just as easily have put an earlier vote down on Robz if that was the case. Yeah I think I agree with faust on him being pretty towny.

Skumpy: Town

BTW, people should reread gkrieg.

I think this is the most important section:

So, town are TWM, chairs, skumpy, tentatively Faust, galz, Andrew

Scum are RR, Jake, and probably XX?  Could also be Robz, or datswan.

The town read on Galzria confuses me because gkrieg points out some scummy things before that, but there you go. I think gkrieg gets killed for accurate town reads, and well it helps that I also think Skumpy, chairs, TWM are town.

Almost caught up. Just wanted to say I agree on those town reads, at least Skumpy and TWM. Skumpy I don't think can make up everything he's been saying as scum. TWM is overly-dramatic as usual, that means he's town. chairs I'm not really sure about.

[Galzria]

Actual question - if I am VT does he claim still hurt town iyo?

Yes. Scum at night is primarily trying to hunt for PRs to eliminate them as PRs are the biggest threat. When a town player claims VT scum knows their alignment and knows they are unlikely to be lying, therefore they can use process of elimination to night kill other players that have not claimed as they are more likely to be a PR than the claimed player.

^Exactly why you don't prematurely claim. Galz knows this. Town!Galz would not do this.

So would Scum!Galz. I think Galz of either alignment had a reason. And not just a "this won't get me lynched" reason if he is scum. Scum!Galz would have a reason. Town!Galz would have a reason, I have to think.

Scum!Galz's reason is to make people dismiss as something Scum!Galz would never do. Yes, major WIFOM but seriously. What vet does this as town?

I do.

I claim or don't claim, post or don't post, say or don't say exactly as I believe will help my faction win 100% of the time - regardless of what my faction is. Even without knowing my alignment TWM has figured this out. It doesn't mean I'm always right in my choices, but it does mean that my choices are my own and are made because I believe them to be there to be value in making them. I get that not everybody agrees, and that's ok. I don't expect you to. But if you're going to judge me as scum or town it should not be on whether or not you disagree or don't like my play style - it should be on whether (and why) you honestly believe I'm scum.

[Galzria]

Also, day off today, and enjoying much DogFish Head 120 (16.7%... yikes!). So... you know. DAMA. lol.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

I am more inclined to vote galz, than Andrew specifically, after this exchange but would rather not as I have an inkling that this is town v town. And mostly the better lynches are xx, jake and maybe datswan.

Or chairs. But mostly jake.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

DAMA.

I plan on being there very soon!