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[DooWopDJ]

Hello,hello

I have a few players who are not the best at remembering things while playing.  It does not bother me they 'take notes', as it make them a better player/opponent for me.  Is there an 'unwritten' gamer's rule, that 'note taking' is probably not allowed or not.   How does the Dominion community handle this?

Thanks
-DooWopDJ

[schadd]

i'm pretty sure there is upwards of one of our top players that does

[Roadrunner7671]

At tournaments you're not allowed to.

[Awaclus]

Ctrl+F the log.

[Roadrunner7671]

Ctrl+F the log.

There's no log IRL

[GendoIkari]

This has been discussed at great length in the past (I'll see if I can track down a thread or two), and it absolutely is against the rules to take notes. If all players agree to allow it, then it's playing a variant, which of course is fine, but still a house-rule / variant. If you do so without letting other players know you are doing it, it is cheating.

[GendoIkari]

Found it:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=876.0

Also here:

We finally have an official ruling on the legallity of an automatic point counter?

A point counter is for sure a game variant, not allowed by the rules.

I encourage people to play whatever game variants they want, provided they comply with local laws and are agreed upon by all players.

[DooWopDJ]

Well a few points
1. Should (or can) this thread be moved to the "Rules' section of the Forum?
2. Taking notes is not allowed (otherwise the game is a variant)
3. Gaming usually has a 'mental memory' component, that for the most part is allowed, but may be a 'banishable' offensive in some settings
4. Noobs posts can bring up old threads, so be warned this noob has lots of questions and points, so hopefully I can find a suitable thread to add to instead of making new posts.
Thanks
-DooWopDJ

[Kirian]

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=876.msg13546#msg13546

"It is not up to any rulebook to say that you can't use a memory aid; rather it is up to the rulebook to specifically allow it, or else you can't use one. It doesn't matter how much the game for you is not about this memorization, how much the memory thing seems tangential to whatever fun the game provides; you do not get to use anything other than your brain to handle that memorization, unless of course you are explicitly playing a variant. You also do not get to - and this is important - scrawl notes to yourself on your belly using your own blood. Games between players are played between players, and "players" do not by default include notebooks or pencils, even makeshift ones that are constructed from the players. Expecting all rulebooks to repeat this is nonsense, and anyway would offend people who don't like to talk about blood.

My original long essay on this topic also addresses the question of glasses; I will leave that as an exercise for the reader here."

[J Reggie]

Donald X also has a quote on that topic about playing tic tac toe in a van while yodeling, which is now one of my goals.

[Jack Rudd]

I usually view taking notes during a board game as a "competition-level" rule rather than a "game-level" rule. (Of course, I'm coming at this from chess, where there are loads of competition-level rules, none of which you need to know if you're just playing a friendly game.)

[Cave-o-sapien]

I usually view taking notes during a board game as a "competition-level" rule rather than a "game-level" rule. (Of course, I'm coming at this from chess, where there are loads of competition-level rules, none of which you need to know if you're just playing a friendly game.)

I agree, but it seems odd that someone playing a friendly game would feel it necessary to take notes.

[Kirian]

I usually view taking notes during a board game as a "competition-level" rule rather than a "game-level" rule. (Of course, I'm coming at this from chess, where there are loads of competition-level rules, none of which you need to know if you're just playing a friendly game.)

I agree, but it seems odd that someone playing a friendly game would feel it necessary to take notes.

Right.

If you're in a competition, then you're obviously bound by the rules to not take notes.

But if it's a friendly game, then you're not really competing in the heavy sense, so you don't need to take notes.

[DooWopDJ]

After consideration of my opponents inability to memorize certain aspects of the game (they cannot remember if they bought all of the cards for Museum), I prefer to make the game more 'playable' for them (if they prefer to take notes, then I can take notes myself, but I would rather want them to play the game and enjoy it.  Just because I can remember things better should be my advantage.  I want my ability to know how to play the kingdom at hand to be the deciding factor, not my ability that I have the advantage of having more VP then they do, and end the game on piles.

[GendoIkari]

After consideration of my opponents inability to memorize certain aspects of the game (they cannot remember if they bought all of the cards for Museum), I prefer to make the game more 'playable' for them (if they prefer to take notes, then I can take notes myself, but I would rather want them to play the game and enjoy it.  Just because I can remember things better should be my advantage.  I want my ability to know how to play the kingdom at hand to be the deciding factor, not my ability that I have the advantage of having more VP then they do, and end the game on piles.

No problem playing that way if you want; so long as you recognize that you are playing a variant.

[Cuzz]

After consideration of my opponents inability to memorize certain aspects of the game (they cannot remember if they bought all of the cards for Museum), I prefer to make the game more 'playable' for them (if they prefer to take notes, then I can take notes myself, but I would rather want them to play the game and enjoy it.  Just because I can remember things better should be my advantage.  I want my ability to know how to play the kingdom at hand to be the deciding factor, not my ability that I have the advantage of having more VP then they do, and end the game on piles.

No problem playing that way if you want; so long as you recognize that you are playing a variant.

Yes to be safe you'll want everyone to fill out the Variant Contract in which all players affirm their understanding that an actual game of Dominion has not been played, and that they will under no circumstances claim that they have played a game of Dominion in speech, print or semaphore to any other entity living, dead, or fictional.

[infangthief]

After consideration of my opponents inability to memorize certain aspects of the game (they cannot remember if they bought all of the cards for Museum), I prefer to make the game more 'playable' for them (if they prefer to take notes, then I can take notes myself, but I would rather want them to play the game and enjoy it.  Just because I can remember things better should be my advantage.  I want my ability to know how to play the kingdom at hand to be the deciding factor, not my ability that I have the advantage of having more VP then they do, and end the game on piles.

No problem playing that way if you want; so long as you recognize that you are playing a variant.

Yes to be safe you'll want everyone to fill out the Variant Contract in which all players affirm their understanding that an actual game of Dominion has not been played, and that they will under no circumstances claim that they have played a game of Dominion in speech, print or semaphore to any other entity living, dead, or fictional.

On the plus side, if you play a variant you can give players the option of leaving a deadlocked game without starving to death. I hate it when that happens.

[mameluke]

What about taking notes or using counters to indicate things regarding tracking, like how many actions, coins, or buys remain? For someone who is bad at math or has memory issues it seems like it would be cheating to not let them do this, unless you want to supervise everyone else's turns. (Good luck with those KC-KC-Pawn turns)

[crj]

To me, at least, things that help you keep to the rules are very different from things that help you play better.

[Marcory]

In the electronic version, both players have to consent to the use of the log, but the interface automatically keeps track of your available Actions, Buys, and Coins, as well as keeping track of your Durations, Set-aside cars, trashed cards that continue to affect the game state, etc. I think that it's perfectly reasonable to keep track of such things (with scratch paper, a play mat, or an app) during face-to-face games.

[Awaclus]

In the electronic version, both players have to consent to the use of the log

Really? I thought the log was always there.

[markusin]

In the electronic version, both players have to consent to the use of the log

Really? I thought the log was always there.

It is. I'm not sure what electronic version Marcory is referring to.

[buckets]

I usually view taking notes during a board game as a "competition-level" rule rather than a "game-level" rule. (Of course, I'm coming at this from chess, where there are loads of competition-level rules, none of which you need to know if you're just playing a friendly game.)

I agree, but it seems odd that someone playing a friendly game would feel it necessary to take notes.

Maybe they just want to learn more about the game/their strategy.

[Erick648]

Yeah, the rules are not moral imperatives; you can do whatever you want as long as everyone's okay with it (my group's always used a lot of little rule changes, e.g., making Throne Room optional before 2nd edition came out).  If someone brings a notepad to the table and starts taking notes, and no one objects, you're fine.  If some secretly hides a notepad on his lap and starts taking notes under the table, that's a problem (if you have to hide the fact that you're doing it, it's probably cheating).  If you want to scrawl notes on your belly in your own blood, and no one says "That's disgusting, stop that!" scrawl away.

[ackmondual]

As a courtesy, for one game, each player has announced how many points they thought they had (and FWIW, all of us were correct on how many Provinces we each had!  )