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[Haddock]

Oh my god too much setup chat.

I simply can't catch up with this today.  I'll try tonight.

[EFHW]

Sorry everyone. You won't believe the tangle of solar systems we have to navigate! (Actually, I got used to this game not happening and forgot to come back.) I don't have time now, but promise to contribute something later today.

[faust]

Can I be an IC now?

For today, sure. Tomorrow, no

Tomorrow I'll be dead anyway!

[faust]

Saying "moving blue is scummy" is all well and good, but the only way to determine if someone has moved blue is to get the lower blue C-action, which is the same as scum's enable lower-deck NK action, which means that we can't enforce it unless we move blue, but then we get false positives.

Well, yes, but everyone who used the lower blue C action should have some information to share, so we could catch someone in a lie who claimed that. Of course usual claiming problems arise.

[CheesyJelly]

4. Which "strat" did I hand to scum?

If breaking Upper Blue is so good for town, then scum definitely want to Wiggle the Mouse to avoid that.  I feel like town!faust would have sat on that idea for much longer.

As an aside, can I just say that I really enjoyed your use of quotation marks.

[faust]

4. Which "strat" did I hand to scum?

If breaking Upper Blue is so good for town, then scum definitely want to Wiggle the Mouse to avoid that.  I feel like town!faust would have sat on that idea for much longer.

As an aside, can I just say that I really enjoyed your use of quotation marks.

Err... but not wiggling the mouse does not guarantee breaking upper blue. That was the whole point I made earlier... not wiggling the mouse is 50% good and 50% bad, so overall null. I concede that it's a bit above null knowing that Cop switch is targeted. Or it might not be... because status printout isn't as good if Cop switch is targeted.

[theorel]

Saying "moving blue is scummy" is all well and good, but the only way to determine if someone has moved blue is to get the lower blue C-action, which is the same as scum's enable lower-deck NK action, which means that we can't enforce it unless we move blue, but then we get false positives.

Well, yes, but everyone who used the lower blue C action should have some information to share, so we could catch someone in a lie who claimed that. Of course usual claiming problems arise.

Yeah, my only point was that if moving blue is scummy, then town has no way of reasonably detecting moving blue...so on that count moving blue is less scummy.
Additionally there are 10 town players, and 6 useful one-shot roles...now sure cop is better than doctor.  But if everyone goes cop, then we're giving up doctor for no reason.  Additionally, if everyone moves red, then that lift gets blocked and it's hard to move down.
I think players should judge for themselves, based on their location in player-order, whether they think they're more likely to manage to get to red, do a cop, and move down or if they'd be better off staying put in white, or moving to blue.

Some thoughts:
Various night-action possibilities:
Red-Lift-B is really good for protecting yourself from night-kill.  Either you protect yourself and recharge cop/commuter, or just protect yourself (or fail entirely because someone else does this action just before you in turn order and you're both blocked from lift).  But generally, I think someone that's concerned for their night-time health can do this effectively.
Red-A(Target)-Lift is I think an obvious nice action.
Obviously no one should use Red-with both A&B, since that would cancel their copping.
Red-A-A seems greedy...if you get shot we lose both cop results...so I recommend against it.
Still, it would be good to get that third-phase cop result...
someone could do B-Red-A.  Getting the roleblock and cop is cool.
C-Red-A is cool, but I've volunteered to do C.  So, obviously scum knows to kill me if I do that, so it's better for me not to do it (except then scum doesn't kill me, and WIFOM).

Blue-B-Lift is nice, doctor someone and save yourself (if you can catch the lift)
Lift-B-A (or Lift-A-B) is pretty good whether you make it lower deck or not, make sure to specify targets!  (actually any A, B, Lift combo is decent turn-1.)

Someone doing Blue-Lift-X would be good, just to get to the lower deck.  Blue-Lift-B gets a doctor shot if you miss the lift, drains energy if you make it.  Blue-Lift-C gets some information if you make it...and you can announce who you cop-flipped if you miss the lift.  Maybe Blue-Lift-Red is best though...puts you center-top if you miss lift, and center-bottom if you make it.  Both places where it's good to be.  You're essentially using your turn to try to commute...

That should be more than enough good actions for town to take, as long as we don't over-collide.

And I think that's it from me as far as theorizing good night-actions goes.  I'm happy to respond to questions, but probably time to get to scum-hunting.

[faust]

Saying "moving blue is scummy" is all well and good, but the only way to determine if someone has moved blue is to get the lower blue C-action, which is the same as scum's enable lower-deck NK action, which means that we can't enforce it unless we move blue, but then we get false positives.

Well, yes, but everyone who used the lower blue C action should have some information to share, so we could catch someone in a lie who claimed that. Of course usual claiming problems arise.

Yeah, my only point was that if moving blue is scummy, then town has no way of reasonably detecting moving blue...so on that count moving blue is less scummy.
Additionally there are 10 town players, and 6 useful one-shot roles...now sure cop is better than doctor.  But if everyone goes cop, then we're giving up doctor for no reason.

While there is some truth to that, it is only true as long as the blue pool still holds power, and these are only two units. That means that after the first 2 shots we take from upper blue, we'd have to redirect energy from the common pool to blue that could go to red instead.

[theorel]

Saying "moving blue is scummy" is all well and good, but the only way to determine if someone has moved blue is to get the lower blue C-action, which is the same as scum's enable lower-deck NK action, which means that we can't enforce it unless we move blue, but then we get false positives.

Well, yes, but everyone who used the lower blue C action should have some information to share, so we could catch someone in a lie who claimed that. Of course usual claiming problems arise.

Yeah, my only point was that if moving blue is scummy, then town has no way of reasonably detecting moving blue...so on that count moving blue is less scummy.
Additionally there are 10 town players, and 6 useful one-shot roles...now sure cop is better than doctor.  But if everyone goes cop, then we're giving up doctor for no reason.

While there is some truth to that, it is only true as long as the blue pool still holds power, and these are only two units. That means that after the first 2 shots we take from upper blue, we'd have to redirect energy from the common pool to blue that could go to red instead.

Oh, I reread the set-up while writing that post...each power can be used max-once per PHASE not per ROUND.  Yeah, Doctor shots are less useful then I thought at the beginning of the post.  We can get 3 cop-shots, 3 roleblocks, and 3 Trackers every night (and some commuters potentially).  So, yeah, I think it may be not worthwhile to redirect energy to blue.

[silverspawn]

Yeah, my only point was that if moving blue is scummy, then town has no way of reasonably detecting moving blue...so on that count moving blue is less scummy.

Ah, but the enforcement mechanism still works really well. Assume you are scum who went upper blue while pretending to have gone lower blue. You only go lower blue to check information about someone else. That means you claim to have such information – when in reality you do not. So all we have to do is make the people who have gone lower blue claim first, name their target and what color their target was in. If they name a wrong color, that can be counter claimed.

[silverspawn]

Cop is already about 4 times as strong as doctor, with the phase thing it becomes like 10 times as strong

[Roadrunner7671]

Yeah this is a lot of setup talk. I think I'm gonna reread the setup, which is a sentence I thought I'd never type.

[Skumpy]

I'll be back later. In the meantime:

1)...is anybody besides faust going to give me feedback, or is the ScumPlan just done?
2) So everyone's clear: we're ALL vulnerable to the scum kill tonight. Getting to the lower deck means, if you want, you'll be safe the next night (unless Secret Hatched).

[SpaceAnemone]

More answers!

1) Trackers will be given "no one" if their target did not take a targeting action, and "no result" if something interferes with their ability to track.

2) You may pass on any Space Phase step instead of playing a card.

3) Yes, scum may win a one-shot action with one of their other card plays, in addition to performing the scum NK. If this occurs, a tracker who targets this scum player will be able to see both of this player's targets, as long as they are distinct.

4) No, you cannot specify an amount of energy to transfer. It is always determined by the number of energy units available in the central pool, or the remaining capacity of the pool to which it is being drawn, whichever number is smaller.

5) Mafia players do not have daychat.

6) Yes, each mafia player may request every day to end up in the top half of the randomized player list for the following space phase. For statistical purposes, you may assume that the player turn order is simply re-randomized multiple times until a configuration is drawn which satisfies the constraint.

7) Information gained in the space phase (e.g. from a status printout) is returned to the player's private QT after the resolution phase. The phase immediately following the resolution phase is the day phase, in which the scum QT is locked.

[silverspawn]

2) So everyone's clear: we're ALL vulnerable to the scum kill tonight. Getting to the lower deck means, if you want, you'll be safe the next night (unless Secret Hatched).

Oh, I see why. Thanks for clarifying that.

This means that there isn't actually any downside to choosing a particular player to wiggle the mouse, if we want that.

[EFHW]

I'm caught up now.

I think labelling upper blue as scummy  is a mistake.  Weak visitor isn't great but we could decide the target ahead of time, if not who does the visiting. Doctor is good, especially if we start getting IC's. And besides, we don't want to give up use of that lift just because upper Blue C is scummy. Upper Red C is even scummier.

I see faust's point about not trying to wiggle the mouse, but I think that is sacrificing too much just to protect the cop accuracy, especially since cop switch requires guessing the cop's target.

I liked the idea of having players use random numbers to determine actions.

I don't think telling scummy people to do specific things will work, even for wiggling the mouse N1. Movement around the ship is just too uncertain, both because of lifts and because of cards. What if the specified person has no cards with the right letter? Or the person could be scum and claim to have no cards of that letter.

I think we should try to get actions, but not count on it at all. Regular scumhunting should be our main focus.

[EFHW]

2) So everyone's clear: we're ALL vulnerable to the scum kill tonight. Getting to the lower deck means, if you want, you'll be safe the next night (unless Secret Hatched).

Oh, I see why. Thanks for clarifying that.

This means that there isn't actually any downside to choosing a particular player to wiggle the mouse, if we want that.

I think Skumpy is wrong here. All the movement takes place BEFORE the actions resolve, so if someone went to the lower deck they would be protected that night from the nk.

[iguanaiguana]

If we try to coordinate or really optimize night actions at all,  we'll spend all day talking about how best to do it, then lynch a random person.

Which actually for D1 might not be that bad.

[faust]

If we try to coordinate or really optimize night actions at all,  we'll spend all day talking about how best to do it, then lynch a random person.

Which actually for D1 might not be that bad.

That D1 hate is getting seriously tiresome.

[Skumpy]

2) So everyone's clear: we're ALL vulnerable to the scum kill tonight. Getting to the lower deck means, if you want, you'll be safe the next night (unless Secret Hatched).

Oh, I see why. Thanks for clarifying that.

This means that there isn't actually any downside to choosing a particular player to wiggle the mouse, if we want that.

I think Skumpy is wrong here. All the movement takes place BEFORE the actions resolve, so if someone went to the lower deck they would be protected that night from the nk.

NK affects anyone who's visited the upper deck during Space Phase. Which is everybody.

[iguanaiguana]

If we try to coordinate or really optimize night actions at all,  we'll spend all day talking about how best to do it, then lynch a random person.

Which actually for D1 might not be that bad.

That D1 hate is getting seriously tiresome.

I think it is just hard for me to look for scum tells in a wash of theory talk. Not so for you?

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote Count 1.1

Haddock (1): Roadrunner7671
iguanaiguana (3): faust, silverspawn, gkrieg13
faust (1): CheesyJelly

Not Voting (9): Haddock, Luckat, EFHW, LaLight, Skumpy, theorel, iguanaiguana, Awaclus, 2.71828.....

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends at 17.35 forum time on Monday 29th January.

[EFHW]

2) So everyone's clear: we're ALL vulnerable to the scum kill tonight. Getting to the lower deck means, if you want, you'll be safe the next night (unless Secret Hatched).

Oh, I see why. Thanks for clarifying that.

This means that there isn't actually any downside to choosing a particular player to wiggle the mouse, if we want that.

I think Skumpy is wrong here. All the movement takes place BEFORE the actions resolve, so if someone went to the lower deck they would be protected that night from the nk.

NK affects anyone who's visited the upper deck during Space Phase. Which is everybody.

You're right,  I missed that.

[silverspawn]

In regards to cards, we all have 6. The chance to have a particular direction is 1 - (2/3)^6 = 91,2%. The chance to have both a particular direction and a particular action is roughly the above squared, so 83%. That's not the worst risk to take.

[silverspawn]

Your idea of directing Weak Visitor targets actually sounds very good, I think. That makes me lean towards not ever wiggling the mouse, but either using safe cop shots or making particular people use weak visitor on particular targets.