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[2.71828.....]

I actually think I would prefer the person with the lowest post count be the mouse wiggler. Getting a bunch of votes D1 is not such an amazing scum indicator (source: my gut) and having the low poster get "penalized" for not posting much seems reasonable. They are also less likely to be super involved with the setup and thus less likely to know what they should do at night.

[Skumpy]

OK, my turn. I'm gonna get some serious backlash.

I'm pro-coordinate, at least mostly. If we do, then we don't have town doing things twice or thrice that need to be done once. Specifically, filling the pools and wiggling the mouse. As Silver said in 195, there's an enforcement mechanism; when one and only person gets assigned a task, they have to do it or else they'll look really bad.

Before I go further: The Lower White A (print status). This seems like a must. If we were able to get 2+ reports of this, there's a good chance at least one is coming from town. Meaning if scum were to try to use a Roleblock or a Cop Switch, they're getting caught. And overall, it's good to hold people responsible for who's doing what and get a half-track on where people are more-or-less.

Except what you should do depends on where you are in player order. We probably want to grab the Tracker shot in Upper White, but that will only go to a player that is high in player order.

And this is where I strongly disagree. The first players in order are the ones who know their lift movements can't be jammed, so they should be the ones to get down to the lower decks and charge up the pools - someone on the upper deck will get the tracker/cops sooner or later during the round. In addition, remember scum has the option to get themselves into the top half of the order, so assigning menial tasks to the first half will discourage scum from elevating. 

So what I would have in mind is something like:
Round 1: 1st Player in order lifts down, 2nd player goes Red, 3rd player wiggles mouse.
Round 2: 1st Player replenishes central pool, 2nd players lifts down, 3rd player lifts down.
Round 3: 1st player gets a Print, 2nd player fills red. 3rd player replenishes central pool.

It's boring, but it gets the job done, doesn't risk any lift jams, doesn't risk any energy exhaustion in red for night 1, and frees up the next 10-11 players (and at least 6 town) to:

• try tracking/copping
• try lifting to safety and getting some card draw/exchange
• try an upper Blue role to try and track scum to the upper Red...or just get it to work
• someone can go down white and get a second print
• someone can go to lower blue and try filling the pool, even though it's not as ideal as red

That's still a lot of options - someone's gonna get something. And if the mouse isn't wiggled or the central and/or red pool comes out empty, we know who's responsible. Also, I agree with Silver in #169 - Scum NK isn't getting blocked tonight, way too many variables to take into account.

The big question for me is, as gkrieg said:

We could do something with player order, but the problem is that not everyone has the same cards, so we can't actually plan what each person in player order will do.

whether everybody is capable or not of doing an assignment. I don't think claiming all cards is necessary, but I personally would like to know if anybody was dealt a really bad hand. I assume most people have options N1, and I don't think a few people with monocolored-and-lettered hands would interfere with schemes too much, even if they're lying scum.

I mean, we're mechanics on a ship for Pete's Sake. Mechanics work together!



The two other big questions in my mind are:
1. Do we all do a full claim every day, and if so, in what order? Faust is against it, I imagine. (after all, if scum is trying to sabotage actions and make night kills, there're gonna be gaps in history whereas there could've been a proven 3-action night. On the other hand, it tells scum where are we are and who's vulnerable to the kill)
2. We should be trying to figure out what scum wants to do tonight. Do they blow up upper blue twice, or try to lift down, or what, and how do we respond?
But these can wait for a more opportune time for discussion...

[faust]

First, I will reiterate that I don't think Wiggling the Mouse is pro-town. More thoughts to come later.

[faust]

[3) The three lifts operate independently, and jam separately.

That clarification was very helpful by the way. I actually wondered that, read the setup post, and concluded that it was supposed to say that all lifts jam at the same time.

Follow-up to some other answer in there:

Am I allowed to take fewer than 3 actions/movements in a given Space Phase?

[faust]

Except what you should do depends on where you are in player order. We probably want to grab the Tracker shot in Upper White, but that will only go to a player that is high in player order.

And this is where I strongly disagree. The first players in order are the ones who know their lift movements can't be jammed, so they should be the ones to get down to the lower decks and charge up the pools - someone on the upper deck will get the tracker/cops sooner or later during the round.

I don't disagree. But that means it probably goes to player 4 or 5, and I still consider that high in player order.

So what I would have in mind is something like:
Round 1: 1st Player in order lifts down, 2nd player goes Red, 3rd player wiggles mouse.
Round 2: 1st Player replenishes central pool, 2nd players lifts down, 3rd player lifts down.
Round 3: 1st player gets a Print, 2nd player fills red. 3rd player replenishes central pool.

It's boring, but it gets the job done, doesn't risk any lift jams, doesn't risk any energy exhaustion in red for night 1

Unless I got something wrong, the central lift would be jammed in your example at the time player 3 tries to use it. That is, unless 3 + 4n players use the lift movement in the first round, which seems like a nightmare to coordinate.

I agree that the status printout would be very helpful, but it also doesn't hurt to get two. It's unrealistic to expect all our plans to succeed, because the lift jamming can lead to you doing something you weren't planning to.

The two other big questions in my mind are:
1. Do we all do a full claim every day, and if so, in what order? Faust is against it, I imagine. (after all, if scum is trying to sabotage actions and make night kills, there're gonna be gaps in history whereas there could've been a proven 3-action night. On the other hand, it tells scum where are we are and who's vulnerable to the kill)
2. We should be trying to figure out what scum wants to do tonight. Do they blow up upper blue twice, or try to lift down, or what, and how do we respond?
But these can wait for a more opportune time for discussion...

1. The only one who benefits from us discussing what we're going to claim now is scum. That discussion should wait until D2.
2. What scum wants to do depends on what town wants to do. If we coordinate, they can sabotage. Otherwise they'd just wreak some random havoc.

[Skumpy]

Except what you should do depends on where you are in player order. We probably want to grab the Tracker shot in Upper White, but that will only go to a player that is high in player order.

And this is where I strongly disagree. The first players in order are the ones who know their lift movements can't be jammed, so they should be the ones to get down to the lower decks and charge up the pools - someone on the upper deck will get the tracker/cops sooner or later during the round.

I don't disagree. But that means it probably goes to player 4 or 5, and I still consider that high in player order.

Great!

So what I would have in mind is something like:
Round 1: 1st Player in order lifts down, 2nd player goes Red, 3rd player wiggles mouse.
Round 2: 1st Player replenishes central pool, 2nd players lifts down, 3rd player lifts down.
Round 3: 1st player gets a Print, 2nd player fills red. 3rd player replenishes central pool.

It's boring, but it gets the job done, doesn't risk any lift jams, doesn't risk any energy exhaustion in red for night 1

Unless I got something wrong, the central lift would be jammed in your example at the time player 3 tries to use it. That is, unless 3 + 4n players use the lift movement in the first round, which seems like a nightmare to coordinate.

No. Player 2 takes the Red lift, Player 3 takes the Central Lift. The Lift counter resets every round, so the only way the central lift could be jammed for them is if one of the first two players doesn't do their job. The only way for this to fail is if someone is unable do their assigned task because of their cards, but there's some flexibility if we know sufficiently in advance (like if someone can't do a Player 1 task, they can switch with Player 2). Of course, we first have to agree on a plan first.

I agree that the status printout would be very helpful, but it also doesn't hurt to get two. It's unrealistic to expect all our plans to succeed, because the lift jamming can lead to you doing something you weren't planning to.

And I agree, and in fact, I say someone should make an effort to get a 2nd. Even with a mislynch, there's going to be a lot of town doing the same thing as each other and fighting for lifts and powers and younameits and whatchamacallits tonight. So yeah, a 2nd printout is something that somebody somewhere can do. Sure, it could fail. There's a lot that could go wrong. But if there's 2 people who have the same story and can report the same roles, it's a good sign. Possibly 2 scum who are corroborating the same story, possibly one is NKed to try to raise doubts...but still probably an end good overall.

The two other big questions in my mind are:
1. Do we all do a full claim every day, and if so, in what order? Faust is against it, I imagine. (after all, if scum is trying to sabotage actions and make night kills, there're gonna be gaps in history whereas there could've been a proven 3-action night. On the other hand, it tells scum where are we are and who's vulnerable to the kill)
2. We should be trying to figure out what scum wants to do tonight. Do they blow up upper blue twice, or try to lift down, or what, and how do we respond?
But these can wait for a more opportune time for discussion...

1. The only one who benefits from us discussing what we're going to claim now is scum. That discussion should wait until D2.
2. What scum wants to do depends on what town wants to do. If we coordinate, they can sabotage. Otherwise they'd just wreak some random havoc.

1. I mean, we're going to need to know the printouts. We're going to need to know cop and tracker results. But I guess. Whatever.
2. Well, the SkumPlan will be tricky to sabotage unless a performer themselves is scum, in which, case, the suspect pool narrows considerably. Alternatively, (as I now am realizing) a scum going early could try and shift responsibility to a later scum, to do their task for them, but now there's a possibility that lift-usage would clog the efforts; going early is the only way to ensure success. As for past that...Scum has 12 actions tonight. One's a night kill. What would you do with the other 11, faust? It can't be all random havoc, not as long as there printouts to dissuade them from going after nasty game-actions and not as long as there's a threat of claiming D2. So what then do you do? Question's open to anybody, actually.

Also, can I get some more clarification on the Tracker? It seems that the Scum NK user could also acquire a separate one-shot power, or no? And if that is the case, would the Tracker see both visits?

[faust]

The Lift counter resets every round

Ok, forgot about that.

2. Well, the SkumPlan will be tricky to sabotage unless a performer themselves is scum, in which, case, the suspect pool narrows considerably. Alternatively, (as I now am realizing) a scum going early could try and shift responsibility to a later scum, to do their task for them, but now there's a possibility that lift-usage would clog the efforts; going early is the only way to ensure success. As for past that...Scum has 12 actions tonight. One's a night kill. What would you do with the other 11, faust? It can't be all random havoc, not as long as there printouts to dissuade them from going after nasty game-actions and not as long as there's a threat of claiming D2. So what then do you do? Question's open to anybody, actually.

Generally speaking I'm not in the habit of handing out strategy advice to scum.

[LaLight]

I think we should not even try ro coordinate wiggling the mouse. Scum would better kill the most suspicious person than make a no kill and giving them a free target is not the best idea.

[LaLight]

Someone will do it, someone will.

we need a hero

[silverspawn]

First, I will reiterate that I don't think Wiggling the Mouse is pro-town. More thoughts to come later.

You don't like cops? Leftist propaganda!

[faust]

Someone will do it, someone will.

we need a hero

No we don't. Why are you all so hyper-focused on wiggling the mouse? It has two outcomes, one that is bad for town and the other that is bad for scum, and probably to equal degrees. So why should we waste our time doing - statistically speaking - nothing?

[silverspawn]

Blocking upper blue seems pretty null to me, blocking upper red really bad and the cost of preventing it low.

[silverspawn]

How do you think preventing scum from doing... what? Using doctor? Potentially making cop worse? ... is as bad as preventing town from using cop? That's like saying ninja is as good as tracker. Ninja only makes tracker a bit worse.

[faust]

How do you think preventing scum from doing... what? Using doctor? Potentially making cop worse? ... is as bad as preventing town from using cop? That's like saying ninja is as good as tracker. Ninja only makes tracker a bit worse.

Guaranteed Cop results are amazing. This is what we're getting. Once blue is busted, we just coordinate to get as many Cop shots as possible and just run away with the game. Also this is not like a Tracker/Ninja relation; the mere potential of Cop switching makes Cops completely useless unless we have some Status Printouts, which is another layer of trust.

[faust]

When pulling energy, can I specify the amount or will it always take the maximum possible?

[CheesyJelly]

Someone will do it, someone will.

we need a hero

No we don't. Why are you all so hyper-focused on wiggling the mouse? It has two outcomes, one that is bad for town and the other that is bad for scum, and probably to equal degrees. So why should we waste our time doing - statistically speaking - nothing?

Disagree.  Scum always have more options than town because of their NK, so reducing the powers available each night is more harmful to town than scum.

Besides, according to your argument it can't hurt!

PPE:

I feel like faust is changing the reasons for his argument on the fly, which feels unfaustian.  Also, if a busted upper blue is as useful as he claims, I feel like town!faust wouldn't hand that strat to scum so easily.

Vote: faust

[silverspawn]

Guaranteed Cop results are amazing. This is what we're getting. Once blue is busted, we just coordinate to get as many Cop shots as possible and just run away with the game. Also this is not like a Tracker/Ninja relation; the mere potential of Cop switching makes Cops completely useless unless we have some Status Printouts, which is another layer of trust.

Ok, I get your thought process now, but I think you're wrong that the possibility of switching results makes cops useless. It is pretty unlikely that Mafia hits the right target -- 2/13 with one shot in the first night -- so according to the rule of Bayes, a cop result is still pretty strong evidence.

There's also deck monitoring, which makes it risky for scum to go into the blue room, so using cop switch is not free.

[faust]

Someone will do it, someone will.

we need a hero

No we don't. Why are you all so hyper-focused on wiggling the mouse? It has two outcomes, one that is bad for town and the other that is bad for scum, and probably to equal degrees. So why should we waste our time doing - statistically speaking - nothing?

Disagree.  Scum always have more options than town because of their NK, so reducing the powers available each night is more harmful to town than scum.

Besides, according to your argument it can't hurt!

PPE:

I feel like faust is changing the reasons for his argument on the fly, which feels unfaustian.  Also, if a busted upper blue is as useful as he claims, I feel like town!faust wouldn't hand that strat to scum so easily.

Vote: faust

... what?

1. The argument of your first line is not sound.
2. Sure I won't particularly mind if someone ends up wiggling the mouse, I just don't want us to waste our time on corrdinating it and thereby giving scum valid NK targets.
3. Which reasons for arguments have I changed? Please point it out.
4. Which "strat" did I hand to scum?

[faust]

Guaranteed Cop results are amazing. This is what we're getting. Once blue is busted, we just coordinate to get as many Cop shots as possible and just run away with the game. Also this is not like a Tracker/Ninja relation; the mere potential of Cop switching makes Cops completely useless unless we have some Status Printouts, which is another layer of trust.

Ok, I get your thought process now, but I think you're wrong that the possibility of switching results makes cops useless. It is pretty unlikely that Mafia hits the right target -- 2/13 with one shot in the first night -- so according to the rule of Bayes, a cop result is still pretty strong evidence.

There's also deck monitoring, which makes it risky for scum to go into the blue room, so using cop switch is not free.

Ah, the Cop switch requires a target.... who woulda thunk?

[faust]

Can I be an IC now?

[silverspawn]

So to summarize this debate, I see two possible strategies

1. Make it a hard rule that no town should ever go to upper blue. Try to have Wiggle the mouse be used every time and get as many cop results as possible. Lynch everyone who is seen at upper blue trying to mess with them*

2. Don't wiggle the mouse, have 50% chance of safe cop results per night, have players use upper blue at their discretion

But seeing where players went is actually hard, because one action only tells us upper or lower, and the other only tells us the color...

[silverspawn]

Can I be an IC now?

No, not really. I think you're only marginally more likely to mess this up as scum.

Actually does mafia have daychat? If yes you get a bit more town points.

I also just saw this:

You may also request during the day phase to be placed in the top half of the random player ordering for the following Space Phase.

How exactly does this work? Can every mafia do this every time and it always flies?

[faust]

Actually does mafia have daychat? If yes you get a bit more town points.

I already asked in my QT, and the answer was no.

[theorel]

Hey everybody...sorry I was out yesterday.  Sorry I missed so much early theory discussion, this is a fun set-up, and I think it makes theory discussion much fun.

Saying "moving blue is scummy" is all well and good, but the only way to determine if someone has moved blue is to get the lower blue C-action, which is the same as scum's enable lower-deck NK action, which means that we can't enforce it unless we move blue, but then we get false positives.
-Generally red is better for town than blue.
-A-actions are also better than B-actions.

Having any particular player designated to wiggle the mouse is dangerous because that player may have no "C" cards.  This could be alleviated if we claimed our hands, but that is a very bad idea IMO...letting scum know that any given player can't use an A action for instance is bad since that reduces the pool that they should target with the cop-flip.  Letting them know a given player can't lift is bad since that enables them to guarantee their kill goes through.

Our actions should depend highly on turn-order.  1st player knows he can lift, while 2nd and 3rd players might want to shift zones or wiggle the mouse and then lift as their second or third action.
Since we will know by the end of the night, I think there is minimal danger in town trying to do something on lower B and accidentally cop-flipping someone.  In fact, it's better than scum doing it, since town will announce that it happened and who they targeted. (nevermind just checked and Cop-Flip is a non-blocking action)  Scum can try to take advantage of this with a printout, if they can discuss that in their qt.
If a scum-player gets a printout will they have opportunity to share it with partners?
I think they won't get a chance to discuss it, and the same player can't cop-flip and get a printout, so they can't really sabotage our cop-results by CLAIMING to cop-flip the cop.  Although it does give them 2 chances to hit the cop (one on their actual target, and one with their claim).

All that said, I think some minimal coordination is fine.  For instance, I volunteer to wiggle the mouse during the first space-phase (assuming I'm not lynched).  The danger is, if I'm scum I can choose not to wiggle the mouse and potentially mess up other players using lifts when they don't expect.  But, I'm town, so I know that won't happen.  You'll just have to judge if the danger of me being scum is worth it, and plan accordingly.  I don't even know when I'm going during the night-phase at this stage, so even if I'm scum I can't plan to mess people up any more than if I didn't volunteer for it.  And of course, if the mouse isn't wiggled tomorrow you'll know I'm scum.

[2.71828.....]

Can I be an IC now?

For today, sure. Tomorrow, no