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[Dylan32]

Ok, I really don't like the Andrew wagon. I could be convinced, but probably not easily. I need to reread how it formed, but I won't have time for the next several hours.

[schadd]

also, who else here can do setup probabilities?

[schadd]

mcmc, can you describe eevee's scum play to me?

[Robz888]

Will catch up tomorrow

[The_Wine_Merchant]

I am still voting for andrew and feel ok about staying there. I didn't necessarily find the whole L-1/L-2 thing to be suspicious, but I have not really liked the way he has responded to suspicion.

Yes I understand that I'm defensive and sarcastic and maybe a little impatient and rude, but I don't think there's anything inherently scummy about my playstyle, just like I don't cite WW's style of play today (somewhat lurking, posting sentences here and there, egging people on) as necessarily scummy. Maybe it's just me but I try to look at content and reads. I've never been good at reading metas so I usually try to avoid talking in those terms.

I wouldn't call you any of those terms, and I agree that even if I felt that way about them, they wouldn't necessarily be scummy.

What I meant, and what I should have been more clear about above, was how you have felt compelled to respond to every point about you. It seems like you are giving more credence to every remark about you, which is precisely how I felt when I was last scum. I feel like town lets things slide off their back more often whereas scum is hyper aware and feels like any suspicion could escalate, so you need to put the damper on it quick. Last game mcmc pointed out I was doing it in the scum QT and it was still really hard to check myself.

[Witherweaver]

Ok, I really don't like the Andrew wagon. I could be convinced, but probably not easily. I need to reread how it formed, but I won't have time for the next several hours.

What do you like?

[Witherweaver]

also, who else here can do setup probabilities?

Everyone can, but no one should.

[schadd]

i kind of agree, but it's fun.


totally forgot about you l0l

[pingpongsam]

pps, would you like to elaborate on why you are confident enough andrew is scum to not try to get the hammer?

The hammer was never about certainty. Besides, only scum can afford certainties. D1 I really read mcmc as scum driving the game. Maybe he still is but he's doing such a damn fine job of it I am being absorbed in his frame of it too. I am strongly reading town on mcmc practically all of D2. My initial suspicion on him was for enacting a scum meta I am personally familiar with in myself. He has far surpassed my ability to engender town vibrations while playing against a secretly scum meta. To the point my ego requires me to categorize it as strictly town.

So, that wasn't about Andrew at all. Mcmc made points about Andrew I silently concurred with. So, in some sense I am sheeeping him. That Andrew supposedly reads scum in mcmc to the point of voting him means that Andrew must be better at sensing the scum in the best scum performance ever and my ego will not support that so it requires me to categorize him as strictly scum. If Andrew outdoes PPS then who is PPS?

But enough about that. I initially decided Andrew was likely scum because the off wagon thing, while definitely a scum tactic in scum hands, is not a terrible argument to make. I think it's reasonable that one of the 3 are scum. I'm just required to poo poo it initially to create some tension to see where it might break. But no, the turn of my opinion was when he joined me in voting mcmc. When I implied my vote was disingenuous he didn't seek a better one which makes me think he probably can't read the game nearly as good as would be required to see scum in scum!mcmc this game.

All that said, those are just the gut reasons. I think some due diligence is actually in order. I'm even tempted to unvote but I think there's going to be some switching here real soon and if he goes down anyhow and flips town then while I can't claim hammer my vote is just as good as the hammer because I'm not certain we are otherwise going to flip Andrew.

So, while not the best standing for the vote it is 200% honest.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

also, who else here can do setup probabilities?

Yours truly. What are you looking at?

I'll catch up on the rest later, probably tomorrow.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I am still voting for andrew and feel ok about staying there. I didn't necessarily find the whole L-1/L-2 thing to be suspicious, but I have not really liked the way he has responded to suspicion.

Yes I understand that I'm defensive and sarcastic and maybe a little impatient and rude, but I don't think there's anything inherently scummy about my playstyle, just like I don't cite WW's style of play today (somewhat lurking, posting sentences here and there, egging people on) as necessarily scummy. Maybe it's just me but I try to look at content and reads. I've never been good at reading metas so I usually try to avoid talking in those terms.

I wouldn't call you any of those terms, and I agree that even if I felt that way about them, they wouldn't necessarily be scummy.

What I meant, and what I should have been more clear about above, was how you have felt compelled to respond to every point about you. It seems like you are giving more credence to every remark about you, which is precisely how I felt when I was last scum. I feel like town lets things slide off their back more often whereas scum is hyper aware and feels like any suspicion could escalate, so you need to put the damper on it quick. Last game mcmc pointed out I was doing it in the scum QT and it was still really hard to check myself.

Yeah I get that but if I wasn't responding to suspicion against me you'd be saying "it's scummy that you didn't defend yourself against mcmc's attacks". Besides, that's just my playstyle. Go back to any game I'm in and you'll see the same thing, even though my last game was about 2 1/2 years ago. I'm not really proud of getting into some of the ridiculous fights with ash, yuma, and a couple other people but I usually do get really into the game and tend to overreact. I actually think I'm doing a little better with it this game than in older games but mainly I'm just trying to refrain from being an asshole.

pps, would you like to elaborate on why you are confident enough andrew is scum to not try to get the hammer?

The hammer was never about certainty. Besides, only scum can afford certainties. D1 I really read mcmc as scum driving the game. Maybe he still is but he's doing such a damn fine job of it I am being absorbed in his frame of it too. I am strongly reading town on mcmc practically all of D2. My initial suspicion on him was for enacting a scum meta I am personally familiar with in myself. He has far surpassed my ability to engender town vibrations while playing against a secretly scum meta. To the point my ego requires me to categorize it as strictly town.

So, that wasn't about Andrew at all. Mcmc made points about Andrew I silently concurred with. So, in some sense I am sheeeping him. That Andrew supposedly reads scum in mcmc to the point of voting him means that Andrew must be better at sensing the scum in the best scum performance ever and my ego will not support that so it requires me to categorize him as strictly scum. If Andrew outdoes PPS then who is PPS?

I'll be the first to admit I'm not the greatest mafia player as I kinda get lost trying to figure out setups and I don't pick up on little subtleties that other people seem to pick up on. But I remember one game where I pretty much called the scum team D1 and second guessed myself and ended up getting everything wrong. After the game Axxle told me to just stick with my gut and from then on I've pretty much strived to do that while trying to notice inconsistencies and what I deem to be weak cases not built on a solid foundation of evidence, which is what I see from mcmc this game. By D2 I usually have a couple people I've got strong scum reads on and I tend to stick with them unless something big convinces me otherwise.

So yes, I could be wrong about mcmc. I'm just looking at various things he's posted/neglected this game such as that D1 "argument" with WW, him practically ignoring the first three votes on Joseph's wagon while focusing on us two, and finally his case against me (although yeah, I'm a little biases about that last one), and I still inconsistencies and a lack of thorough investigation. I see mcmc pretty much giving a pass to things that portray him in a towny light even if they're not supported by much and focusing all his attention on, in my opinion, negligible events and posts.

But enough about that. I initially decided Andrew was likely scum because the off wagon thing, while definitely a scum tactic in scum hands, is not a terrible argument to make. I think it's reasonable that one of the 3 are scum. I'm just required to poo poo it initially to create some tension to see where it might break. But no, the turn of my opinion was when he joined me in voting mcmc. When I implied my vote was disingenuous he didn't seek a better one which makes me think he probably can't read the game nearly as good as would be required to see scum in scum!mcmc this game.

All that said, those are just the gut reasons. I think some due diligence is actually in order. I'm even tempted to unvote but I think there's going to be some switching here real soon and if he goes down anyhow and flips town then while I can't claim hammer my vote is just as good as the hammer because I'm not certain we are otherwise going to flip Andrew.

So, while not the best standing for the vote it is 200% honest.

Yeah I still agree focusing off wagon isn't a bad idea but I'm not going to throw away a chance to lynch my #1 scum read. And I figured we have a good amount of discussion and interactions and to just not analyze the votes on the wagon or review D1 or twilight interactions is to not utilize all the tools we have available to find scum. So I'm glad we veered in that direction but I wouldn't be super upset if we ended up lynching off wagon.

[schadd]

i like that you can shit on somebody's scum play and it's like, polite


this is relevant to mcmc in a way i will do after a few things are resolved

[schadd]

okay why did both of our europeans have to die?

[LaLight]

Vote Count 2.5

Eevee (1): schadd
mcmcsalot (1): AndrewisFTTW
Dylan32 (2): Robz888, mcmcsalot
AndrewisFTTW (3+1): The_Wine_Merchant, Witherweaver, pingpongsam, Eevee

Not Voting (2): IDontPlayThisGame, Dylan32


With 13-3 alive it takes 5+1 to lynch.
Day 2 ends Monday, Mar 21-1 at 1am FT.

[mcmcsalot]

mcmc, can you describe eevee's scum play to me?

So obviously I'm not an eevee expert though my opinion of eevee is he's very genuine. This is why he's called out for buddying frequently, he's happy to play the game win us and that comes through in his posts. So if eevee is very reactive to someone that's extra scummy, in the last game he was scum he posted a lot of comments that were talking for everyone, like he was mentioning something we were all thinking and that's unusual for a person who typically wouldn't speak for others. Eevee is the type of person that has an idea how you are feeling but asks you so he can hear it in your words.

I believe in the past I have correctly read eevee other than a couple games where he a) recreated his town meta wonderfully, or b) he was in a bad mood irl and that made me falsely scumread him.

[mcmcsalot]

You're still voting Dylan, right, McMc?  You seem to be working yourself up to Andrew being scum.

Still voting dylan, still think off wagon is a good place to find scum. Dylan has the bonus of semi-clearing robz if he flips scum.

Why is that? (dylan->robz)

The dylan robz interaction is from one of robz posts earlier this day.

Dylan, IDP, TWM: Has to be scum there, unless everybody is off wagon.

I mean, maybe it's just me but I like to see some substance from votes.

Me too. I voted WW because of the lack of substance to his vote, actually.

But then I voted for Dylan because we should find the scum off wagon, and I like Dylan more than IDP for... reasons.

Mostly for the reason that mcmc preferred IDP and it made me uncomfortable.

I feel like there is no chance scum!robz says this about his partner scum!dylan at that point in the game, with minimal comments as a whole. So not 100% but if dylan flips scum robz probably isn't.

[Witherweaver]

That seems very weak.

[mcmcsalot]

That seems very weak.

What seems weak?

[Witherweaver]

The scum!dylan => town!Robz argument.

[Eevee]

I'm european! One temporarily in puerto rico. First impression: it's warmer here than in finland.

Andrew's reaction/defense to his wagon is giving me pause, while i disagree with his mcmc - read, in not sure scum would want to die on that hill. If he is scum, he is under pressure continuing to go after maybe the townreadiest player in the game? I would expect some low poster or other easier target.
But, perhaps more importantly, if andrew is town, dylan defending him seems super towny. If dylan was scum, wouldn't he be very happy to have the target be anyone but him? Maybe he wouldn't want to seem so eager to vote immediately, but the defense definitely seems against scumdylans best interest, he basically closed the door on being able to vote for andrew later today either, when he could have just been a little less adamant or not commented at all for a bit to see where it goes. They could both be scum i guess, but trying to avoid giving too much credence to scum pair theories before we flip first scum.

I got to go soon (probably back at lunchtime though, if we find a place with wifi), but i would be interested to look at why of the off-wagon targets we landed on dylan (namely who pushes it). I think that might be me, but who enabled that then i guess. Because this townfeel on dylan really changes that decision, scum had a huge incentive to push a town target in that spot if there is scum offwagon (which i agree is likely).

sorry for all the typos, phone post and no time to read back.

-->

[Robz888]

What's up, guys? I have not basically anything that happened today yet. Any highlights?I will catch up though.

[pingpongsam]

What's up, guys? I have not basically anything that happened today yet. Any highlights?I will catch up though.

We're all waiting on you...

[schadd]

robz has been a bit quiet. if you do the "yeah i'm kinda disengaged because i'm town" thing i'm going to eat you

[Dylan32]

It's probably time for me to use my vote, so pending further rereads on a couple people, vote: eevee.

[Robz888]

robz has been a bit quiet. if you do the "yeah i'm kinda disengaged because i'm town" thing i'm going to eat you

I want you to know that I'm town; it's why I'm not posting.