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Seprix

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Castles
« on: June 12, 2016, 02:19:46 pm »
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Castles really bothers me. Everyone says it's a strategy on its own to go for them. How do you play Castles? What's the best optimal board for Castles? Engine player or Big Money for Castles? Couldn't the engine player just take Castles to deny the Castles player who is just going for them? Castles are expensive as all heck, so it's clear that it's not great for Big Money to get them? Castles is an engine card then? But Castles junk up the Engine, and it doesn't end the game when you go for them, and they're still expensive I don't know, Castles seems incredibly weak to me so far.

It would have been cool for the game to just end when the Castles cards are emptied, I think. It would have been interesting, and led to different decisions in game play. Naturally, you'd have to 'rebalance' Castles a tad, but it would make 'going for Castles' make a lot more sense, right? Castles would be worth more in the long long run, but if you can 'rush' Provinces, you could beat the Castles player, who has to buy all of those more expensive cards first, and empty that himself as well. Maybe Castle cards even have a clause that if you gained a Province, you cannot buy a Castles card. I think that would have been an interesting idea as well. But those are just some thoughts not related to my original question.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2016, 02:29:52 pm by Seprix »
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trivialknot

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Re: Castles
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2016, 02:43:53 pm »
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My first impression of Castles (based on playing with it) is that it's a slog card, like most alt-VP.  If only one person goes for them, the self-synergy poses a significant challenge for a Province player to beat.  The Province player can steal a few Castles to weaken the Castle strategy, but they have to do it at the right time, possibly early on, junking their deck.  If players mirror each other, then everyone junks their deck and it's a slog.
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Re: Castles
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2016, 02:48:11 pm »
+1
Castles work very well in engine. Note that most castles have on gain effects that improve your deck. I bought empires friday, and payed the not-so-basic intro preset, and both times (my family plays each kingdom twice) the castles player won. Build a reliable vp token engine, and end it by three piling. Works in both two and three player games.
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Seprix

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Re: Castles
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2016, 07:56:35 pm »
+1
I've been running a simulator on Castles all day, and I have finally built a very strong Castles Big Money bot. If you have Geronimoo's Simulator, you can mess around with it.

Code: [Select]
<player name="Castles BM [Seprix]"
 author="Seprix"
 description="A bot that goes for Castles.">
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Optimized"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="Engine"/>
 <type name="Combo"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="AppliesPPR"/>
 <type name="Competitive"/>
   <buy name="Gold">
      <condition>
         <left type="getTotalMoney"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="35.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Castles"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Silver"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver">
      <condition>
         <left type="getTotalMoney"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="19.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Castles"/>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Castles"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="gainsNeededToEndGame"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="9.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="gainsNeededToEndGame"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="gainsNeededToEndGame"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>

The thing with Castles BM is, you're playing the long game. So act like it. Buy more money. The winning percentage goes higher when you spend more time buying Golds and Silvers than if you green sooner, like with Provinces. Castles is going to be incredible with Treasure flooding decks.
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funkdoc

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Re: Castles
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2016, 08:18:12 pm »
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it feels like the real question is how it goes when contested, and how to best contest castles...
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Seprix

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Re: Castles
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2016, 08:32:44 pm »
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Quote from: funkdoc on June 12, 2016, 08:18:12 pm
it feels like the real question is how it goes when contested, and how to best contest castles...

That is going to be an interesting topic. Probably certain Castles will be better to buy than others to deny the opponent. Castles is very long term, so if you have a way to rush a 3-pile, you win. Castles BM HATES junking or discard attacks, and loses so badly to them that it'll make you wish you never wanted to live in a Castle in the first place. So yes, Castles BM beats up Smithy BM and a lot of Terminal BM games on their own (even Wharf BM!), but the reality is Dominion is an engine based game, so playing Castle BM won't be often, and even that might be counteracted if the opponent tries to block you from getting some. I don't think it would, but it could.

Castles BM loses to Jack and Gear because they are too fast.
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amoffett11

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Re: Castles
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2016, 10:16:17 am »
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Quote from: funkdoc on June 12, 2016, 08:18:12 pm
it feels like the real question is how it goes when contested, and how to best contest castles...

I think the first thing I'm going to try when playing against Castles is pick up the Small castle.  Ya, I now have to drag it around for the whole game, but if I can use it to quickly grab the King's Castle before my opponent can buy it, his Castles now aren't worth very much. 

I'm going to wait until I've played a few games with Castles before I cast my judgement on it, there's a lot going on there that is tough to see by just looking at the cards, or even running a simulator.  I mean, how useful is running a BM simulator really?  Every time I've played Dominion, there's always 10 or so Kingdom cards available, and I always try to take them into account.  There will be boards where Castles is bad, and boards where it is competitive.    Which are which?  I have no idea. 

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JThorne

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Re: Castles
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2016, 10:45:06 am »
+1
It looks to me like the intention behind Castles was at least partly to make Victory cards good. Opulent Castle gives you coin for each Victory card in your hand. Grand Castle gives you victory points for each victory card in your hand. These are not Castles in your hand, mind you; any Victory card, this makes the Sprawling Castle decision about a Duchy or 3 Estates a bit more interesting. Also, Small Castle can trash Castles other than itself to gain more, possibly enabling double gains in a turn, and trashing Crumbling Castle is a better value than trashing itself, so there's a benefit to making them line up in the same hand.

Gee, if only there was an action card that could put a bunch of victory cards in your hand. Hmm. Let me think. It's right on the tip of my tongue...

...ah, right. There is is: Crossroads.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Castles
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2016, 10:54:04 am »
+1
Quote from: JThorne on June 13, 2016, 10:45:06 am
It looks to me like the intention behind Castles was at least partly to make Victory cards good. Opulent Castle gives you coin for each Victory card in your hand. Grand Castle gives you victory points for each victory card in your hand. These are not Castles in your hand, mind you; any Victory card, this makes the Sprawling Castle decision about a Duchy or 3 Estates a bit more interesting. Also, Small Castle can trash Castles other than itself to gain more, possibly enabling double gains in a turn, and trashing Crumbling Castle is a better value than trashing itself, so there's a benefit to making them line up in the same hand.

Gee, if only there was an action card that could put a bunch of victory cards in your hand. Hmm. Let me think. It's right on the tip of my tongue...

...ah, right. There is is: Crossroads.

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DG

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Re: Castles
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2016, 11:02:49 am »
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Quote from: funkdoc on June 12, 2016, 08:18:12 pm
it feels like the real question is how it goes when contested, and how to best contest castles...

It's not that easy to decide. The best strategy might always be to buy the castle as late as you can but before the opponent does. Strategy therefore depends on what the opponent is going to do. If both players decide not to buy one of the castles, wanting first chance at the castle underneath, then perhaps the player who has been worse at collecting castles is going to have an advantage.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Castles
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2016, 12:31:54 pm »
+1
Quote from: Seprix on June 12, 2016, 07:56:35 pm
I've been running a simulator on Castles all day, and I have finally built a very strong Castles Big Money bot. If you have Geronimoo's Simulator, you can mess around with it.

Code: [Select]
<player name="Castles BM [Seprix]"
 author="Seprix"
 description="A bot that goes for Castles.">
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Optimized"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="Engine"/>
 <type name="Combo"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="AppliesPPR"/>
 <type name="Competitive"/>
   <buy name="Gold">
      <condition>
         <left type="getTotalMoney"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="35.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Castles"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Silver"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver">
      <condition>
         <left type="getTotalMoney"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="19.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Castles"/>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Castles"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="gainsNeededToEndGame"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="9.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="gainsNeededToEndGame"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="gainsNeededToEndGame"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>

The thing with Castles BM is, you're playing the long game. So act like it. Buy more money. The winning percentage goes higher when you spend more time buying Golds and Silvers than if you green sooner, like with Provinces. Castles is going to be incredible with Treasure flooding decks.

How does it fare against a BM bot that is built planning on emptying the Provinces without much help?
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JThorne

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Re: Castles
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2016, 06:51:21 pm »
+3
Quote
Are we allowed to say the S-word?

No. There's no getting around the fact that even with +Action, it's a stop card in an engine because of its inability to draw cards that draw more cards. That's its fundamental failing, and even the Action/Victory cards other than Castles that DO draw cards (Nobles/Great Hall) still don't make it good.

He who lives by the S-word dies by the S-word.
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Seprix

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Re: Castles
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2016, 06:59:40 pm »
+1
Quote from: Accatitippi on June 13, 2016, 12:31:54 pm
Quote from: Seprix on June 12, 2016, 07:56:35 pm
I've been running a simulator on Castles all day, and I have finally built a very strong Castles Big Money bot. If you have Geronimoo's Simulator, you can mess around with it.

Code: [Select]
<player name="Castles BM [Seprix]"
 author="Seprix"
 description="A bot that goes for Castles.">
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Optimized"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="Engine"/>
 <type name="Combo"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="AppliesPPR"/>
 <type name="Competitive"/>
   <buy name="Gold">
      <condition>
         <left type="getTotalMoney"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="35.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Castles"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Silver"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver">
      <condition>
         <left type="getTotalMoney"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="19.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Castles"/>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Castles"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="gainsNeededToEndGame"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="9.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="gainsNeededToEndGame"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="gainsNeededToEndGame"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>

The thing with Castles BM is, you're playing the long game. So act like it. Buy more money. The winning percentage goes higher when you spend more time buying Golds and Silvers than if you green sooner, like with Provinces. Castles is going to be incredible with Treasure flooding decks.

How does it fare against a BM bot that is built planning on emptying the Provinces without much help?

You mean, Smithy BM? Or BM in general? I don't understand the question. I can tell you that Castles BM crushes most BM strategies outside of Jack BM or Gear BM. Yes, Castles beats Wharf BM, though it slightly loses to Wharf Bank. However, Castles BM does awful against attacks of any kind. Witch BM crushes Castles BM.
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liopoil

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Re: Castles
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2016, 11:06:31 pm »
+3
Smithy BM is built to green so that it can get ~5 provinces before the opponent gets 4. What if it built longer because it knew it had to go for all 8? That's Accatitippi's question, and I think it would make a signifcamt difference. Probably makes smithy break even.
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Seprix

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Re: Castles
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2016, 11:10:56 pm »
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Quote from: liopoil on June 13, 2016, 11:06:31 pm
Smithy BM is built to green so that it can get ~5 provinces before the opponent gets 4. What if it built longer because it knew it had to go for all 8? That's Accatitippi's question, and I think it would make a signifcamt difference. Probably makes smithy break even.

Oooooh. That explains why Castles BM does better. It might not win against Wharf BM after all.

Also, a quicker Castles BM game would have to be made to counter Castles BM traditional version. Disgusting!
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