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[Awaclus]

I'm speaking of all your reads in general. Or are those not based on objective facts?

No, they are supposed to get the objective facts out of whomever I vote for.

[Awaclus]

In other words, I think realizing LaLight was scum after his scum slip was a trivially easy play that everyone should have been able to make; what I want to take credit for is that I made him say it in the first place.

[Dylan32]

Awaclus, I know nothing I can say will change your mind because you are absolutely convinced your way is the best way. However, the only person that actually benefits from your style of play is scum!you in those games because people can't read your mind. A vote without some kind of explanation can definitely be useful; but there are times where town would benefit more from the explanation of your vote than scum would. For example, if people really did miss an LL scum slip, why would you not actually point it out and explain why it was a scumslip? Why should every person on town have to reinvent the wheel? Just because you notice something does not mean everyone else is going to. People have their own perceptions of the game and might miss the fact a post is super scummy if they have been townreading the poster the whole game and need someone to point out the other side of it.  If you would give a little bit more, you could help people understand you and use your insights better without compromising too much on your "give scum no info" mantra, and everyone--except scum--would have a better game for it.

[Awaclus]

For example, if people really did miss an LL scum slip, why would you not actually point it out and explain why it was a scumslip?

I did.

[Awaclus]

It's quite interesting that people still keep blaming me and my playing style after this game even when it should be blatantly obvious that it was my playstyle that exposed scum and everyone else's playstyle that made them focus more on their pseudoscientific "reads" to the degree where they would rather listen to scum's ungrounded insistence that my objectively correct deductive reasoning was "silly" than said reasoning itself.

Even if you just look at how this entire game went, you'll see that scum was way more frustrated with my playstyle than town was, which, on its own, shows how pro-town this is.

[mcmcsalot]

Ugh awaclus I told myself I would say anything but seriously...lalight claiming not to be a vig was not a scumslip. You are saying town would 100% never say that which is just wrong, a frustrated townie could easily be made to accidentally claim not vig when arguing with you.

Also you keep saying it's obvious that your playstyle exposed scum because you were frustrating to us but that's wrong as well. Yes you frustrated me to know end this game, but that made melon townie because no one trusted you. You made it so all I had to do was debate you and push you and it looked townie of me. You allowed me to hide behind you and not give reads on other players which may have actually allowed town to lync mafia.

Fact is this game was won flawlessly, for everything you did awaclus you didn't get a single scum player lynched. Dylan is right that your playstyle only helps you as scum. As town many many people have explained to you that the way you play doesn't allow other town players to trust you, you don't give anyone a reason to believe you are town which I know you think you don't need to do but your wrong. Clearly if you want to help town win you need to convince people even a little bit that you are town and then maybe your objective reads actually will be listened to and followed resulting in victories.

[Awaclus]

Ugh awaclus I told myself I would say anything but seriously...lalight claiming not to be a vig was not a scumslip. You are saying town would 100% never say that which is just wrong, a frustrated townie could easily be made to accidentally claim not vig when arguing with you.

Town would 100% never say that. We can assume that town always plays with town's best interests in mind, because it is inherently beneficial for them to do that. In order for town to win, that assumption needs to be made by every townie and every townie needs to conform to it under all circumstances.

Also you keep saying it's obvious that your playstyle exposed scum because you were frustrating to us but that's wrong as well. Yes you frustrated me to know end this game, but that made melon townie because no one trusted you. You made it so all I had to do was debate you and push you and it looked townie of me. You allowed me to hide behind you and not give reads on other players which may have actually allowed town to lync mafia.

That's not what I keep saying. I'm just saying that it's evidently doing precisely what it needs to do. What allowed you to hide behind me and not give reads on other players was clearly not my playstyle, since I didn't think you were town — it was the playstyle of whoever townread you for doing what you were doing. As far as giving reads is concerned, that's entirely useless because it's trivial to come up with some BS reads as scum.

Fact is this game was won flawlessly, for everything you did awaclus you didn't get a single scum player lynched. Dylan is right that your playstyle only helps you as scum. As town many many people have explained to you that the way you play doesn't allow other town players to trust you, you don't give anyone a reason to believe you are town which I know you think you don't need to do but your wrong. Clearly if you want to help town win you need to convince people even a little bit that you are town and then maybe your objective reads actually will be listened to and followed resulting in victories.

I didn't get a single scum player lynched because I don't control all the votes town has. In order to get scum lynched, the other townies also need to vote correctly, and that's their responsibility because it's a team game.

I did give everyone an extremely good reason to believe I was town, namely that my town narrative was perfect. Obviously. Scum has to put in effort to construct a fake town narrative, but townies just automatically have a real one. Besides, the problem here isn't that people didn't trust me, the problem is that they trusted someone else. You don't need to trust me in order to see that LaLight was guaranteed scum, but you do need to not trust LaLight and his scummates who just waved the perfectly valid logic off as "silly".

[faust]

Town would 100% never say that.

Also, does dayvig kill immediately or at the end of the day? UoS posted a vote count but no one is dead, which surprises me a little bit.

[schadd]

that's their responsibility because it's a team game.

l000l

[Awaclus]

Town would 100% never say that.

Also, does dayvig kill immediately or at the end of the day? UoS posted a vote count but no one is dead, which surprises me a little bit.

Usually the command isn't "dayvig: playername" anyway.

[Awaclus]

that's their responsibility because it's a team game.

l000l

What? It is a team game. Everyone has to contribute.

[Dylan32]

that's their responsibility because it's a team game.

l000l

What? It is a team game. Everyone has to contribute.

Exactly. So being right on your own, even if your internal logic is absolutely 100% correct, if people--for whatever reason, their style or yours--aren't willing to believe your logic and don't see things the same way (spoiler, THEY DON'T), town isn't going to win... If you help other people understand your points and make yourself more believable to them, then, guess what, they will help you lynch the right people (again assuming you are right to begin with).

[Dylan32]

For example, if people really did miss an LL scum slip, why would you not actually point it out and explain why it was a scumslip?

I did.

I remember reading this post, and I didn't follow the logic at all and did not believe that was a genuine scum slip.  Your premise that town would literally never say that hinges on the assumption that town plays flawlessly.  That assumption is disproven literally ever single game.

[Awaclus]

the assumption that town plays flawlessly.  That assumption is disproven literally ever single game.

And that's why town has such a horrible win rate. Town needs to stop not playing flawlessly.

[Awaclus]

Exactly. So being right on your own, even if your internal logic is absolutely 100% correct, if people--for whatever reason, their style or yours--aren't willing to believe your logic and don't see things the same way (spoiler, THEY DON'T), town isn't going to win... If you help other people understand your points and make yourself more believable to them, then, guess what, they will help you lynch the right people (again assuming you are right to begin with).

I did explain the logic step by step in as much detail as was possible. As it turns out, some townies didn't help me lynch the right people regardless of that.

[mcmcsalot]

the assumption that town plays flawlessly.  That assumption is disproven literally ever single game.

And that's why town has such a horrible win rate. Town needs to stop not playing flawlessly.

You are far from a flawless town player as well. You lynched robz this game when he was town. Mafia 91 you lynched robz who was town, you lynched Jake who was town, and EFHW who was town. Your taking an outrageously condescending attitude towards just about everyone who has kindly tried to tell you that your playstyle makes it very hard for other townies to trust you and understand your reads.

You seem to refuse to acknowledge that this is a game with hidden information and relies on players making subjective guesses about the alignment of others. As such being able to convince others of your townieness and being able to convince others that your reads are good is just as important as being able to find who is scum.

[Awaclus]

You are far from a flawless town player as well. You lynched robz this game when he was town. Mafia 91 you lynched robz who was town, you lynched Jake who was town, and EFHW who was town. Your taking an outrageously condescending attitude towards just about everyone who has kindly tried to tell you that your playstyle makes it very hard for other townies to trust you and understand your reads.

You seem to refuse to acknowledge that this is a game with hidden information and relies on players making subjective guesses about the alignment of others. As such being able to convince others of your townieness and being able to convince others that your reads are good is just as important as being able to find who is scum.

You can't blame me for lynching Robz this game. He is not who I wanted to lynch, there just wasn't any other choice. M91 was definitely a subpar performance from me, because I just didn't focus on the game enough, but I learned from my mistake, focused more in this game, and I think my performance here lived up to the standards that I set for other people, too. You might think of my attitude as condescending, but the reality of the situation is that I'm simply being honest because I would prefer for other people to be honest with me, too. I do appreciate the effort people put into giving me feedback, but the content of the feedback has been entirely useless to me because it's entirely irrelevant how hard it is for other townies to trust me or understand my reads.

And of course I would refuse to acknowledge that this game relies on making subjective guesses. It doesn't, it relies on making objective observations. That's how most games with hidden information work — you're supposed to figure the hidden information out based on the available information, not guess it.

[faust]

the assumption that town plays flawlessly.  That assumption is disproven literally ever single game.

And that's why town has such a horrible win rate. Town needs to stop not playing flawlessly.

It's a social deduction game; it's not as if there are clear provable standards for what is and isn't flawless play, as evidenced by this discussion. So it is necessary to take into account that people might play this game differently.

[Awaclus]

It's a social deduction game; it's not as if there are clear provable standards for what is and isn't flawless play, as evidenced by this discussion. So it is necessary to take into account that people might play this game differently.

That is true to an extent, but I think the extent is a lot smaller than you think. In Mafia, you can say whatever you want whenever you want so there are millions of ways to play flawlessly, but there are also millions of ways to make mistakes and sometimes it's not really possible to tell whether or not something is a mistake, but usually it is.