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[Kahryl]

See Subject.  With all the vanilla and near-vanilla action cards, it seems weird to me that there isn't one card that gives you cards and money, but no action points.  Is there any particular reason for that?

Side subject: How would you price this generic action?

+$2
+2 cards

$5?  $6?

[jsh357]

Tribute and trusty Steed can do this, but it's random/hard to get.  We could always get one in Dark Ages or Guilds. 

I think it's a bit powerful, personally.  There might be a good reason we haven't seen one yet.

[GendoIkari]

Tribute and trusty Steed can do this, but it's random/hard to get.  We could always get one in Dark Ages or Guilds. 

I think it's a bit powerful, personally.  There might be a good reason we haven't seen one yet.

Pawn as well. (If by "this" you mean +Card +$).

[Kahryl]

Mountebank too, if you stretch the definition of "+2 cards" 

But I mean VANILLA actions not choices or chances!

[WanderingWinder]

Yeah, I've often thought about this. I think it would be a quite powerful $5, without any drawbacks likely the best BM-enabler at that point (I'm ignoring cursers). And it's pretty good for engines too, if you've got the villages. And if you don't... BM-this is a strong option.Well, Wharf might well still be better. But I'm not sure.
At $6, where it probably needs to be, you've got a somehow not flashy enough card (seriously it's about as flashy as Harem, maybe not even that far; no other cards are so expensive and simple (yes, yes, gold and province)). You know, it's still going to be decently strong there, like you'll want to buy it in a fair number of games. But not all of them. It won't be a power $6. Maybe a middle-of-the-pack.

[Jorbles]

It could be a $5 with some sort of on-buy drawback. Opponent gains a Silver or you take an Estate or a Copper with it, or you only get to draw 4 cards at the end of turn (instead of the usual 5), something like that.

[Kahryl]

Crusade
$5 - Action

+$2
+2 cards
Gain a copy of Crusade



You want to spend some action points? Well you'd better mean it 

[petrie911]

Experience with testing that card has lead me to believe $6 is the right price.  We tried it at $5, but it's just so good there.  Even with just it and your starting deck, it increases your hand value by an average of $3.4.  Compare that to Smithy's $2.1 and Council Room's $2.8.

I think the reason for it is that such cards are either really weak or really strong.  +1 Card/+$1 isn't even a $2.  +2 Cards/+$1 and +1 Card/+$2 would be decent $3s.  +3 cards/+$1, +2 Cards/+$2, and +1 Card/+$3 are probably all too strong at $5.  Anything more than that would be insane.

That and they don't fit that well into drawing engines.  Draw engines need at least +2 Cards and prefer +3 cards.  But that pretty much restricts us to +2 Cards/+$1, which barely gives benefit, or one of the super-powerful ones, which would be hard to build an engine out of due to price.

[Forge!!!]

Nah, then it becomes too powerful, at least with villages, and way less useful without them.

Why not just +2 cards, +1 money, or +1 card, +2 money?

[Kahryl]

Nah, then it becomes too powerful, at least with villages, and way less useful without them.

I think it would be interesting in a BM deck.  You'd have to time the purchase in mid-late game to get enough benefit without having it rage out of control.

[timchen]

I think the problem is just that it is too powerful, yet it creates a dull game. Drawing 2 is not enough for an engine, given the strong acceleration it gives to the game then it is even worse.

At 6 it is still comparable to gold.

[greatexpectations]

you could bump the draw to 3 cards and then have a discard in the manner of envoy.  that might balance it at 5 a little better.

[WanderingWinder]

Crusade
$5 - Action

+$2
+2 cards
Gain a copy of Crusade



You want to spend some action points? Well you'd better mean it 

Broken. Like, this 'drawback' might be a benefit! You aren't going to be playing it all that often before the game is over, and you can't stand to have 2-3 of these from very very early on. Seriously, even if you draw a card dead, this was silver + a card in BM. And it only draws 2, which makes collision a bit less likely than what we're used to.

[rinkworks]

A rundown:

+1 Card, +$1 - As has been rightly pointed out, this is strictly inferior to Pawn.  It's probably not worth having even if it had a $0 or $1 price tag, unless it was truly the best terminal on the table and you have some extra buys.

+2 Cards, +$1 - For this, and for all combinations of 3 such bonuses, you have to compare Smithy (costing $4) with a terminal Gold (balanced but boring at $5).  So this would be slightly stronger than Smithy.  Probably still costable at $4, but insufficiently distinct from it and other cards as to be worth printing.

+1 Cards, +$2 - Stronger still.  (I should emphasize that this is not ALWAYS stronger than Smithy and would in fact be weaker in a lot of decks.  But if you look at the official cards collectively, +$ seems to be valued slightly more than terminal +Cards are.)  This one might have to go up to $5, but it would be a weak $5.

+3 Cards, +$1 - A $6 card, given the difference between Village and Bazaar (both of which seem exactly middle-of-the-pack in their respective cost tiers).  Again, though, this is a case where being balanced doesn't make it interesting.  And in any case, if you need a Smithy-type card in your deck, you probably don't want to wait until you've got $7 to spend to get it.

+2 Cards, +$2 - I agree that this is the most interesting combination.  And it might be workable at $6, as many have said.  But I think there's an excellent chance it really needs to be at $7.  Compared to Gold, it just seems so much better, with "only" the fact that it consumes an action as a drawback.  I mean, figure that with an average card value of $1, this effectively amounts to a terminal +$4.  If we accept that a terminal +$3 is a $5 card, then a terminal +$4 is surely going to warrant larger price increase than $1.

+1 Card, +$3 - Here, the $7 cost is even more convincing.

[Axxle]

How much would a card like this cost?

+2 Cards, +$X, where X is the number of cards you discard.  Each other player may discard two cards to draw one.

 

[FireChipmunks]

How much would a card like this cost?

+2 Cards, +$X, where X is the number of cards you discard.  Each other player may discard two cards to draw one.

 

Well, it gives +2 cards, and it gives +2$ as long as you have 2 cards to discard in your hand. And, if you have 6 cards in your hand, I'd say there is a good chance that most of the time, you'll have at least one estate and one other card to discard, even if its a copper. So that doesn't seem too much worse than +2 cards/+2$. I'd say it probably still should be valued at 6$, especially giving your opponent that bonus.

[michaeljb]

I'd say it probably still should be valued at 6$, especially giving your opponent that bonus.

I think it works pretty well at $5, and evidently, so did Donald X. and the other Dominion playtesters/developers 

[DrHades]

How much would a card like this cost?

+2 Cards, +$X, where X is the number of cards you discard.  Each other player may discard two cards to draw one.

 

So basicly it is just a Secret Chamber without the reaction where you draw 2 cards first? That seems as a very weak 5$...with that bonus for opponent, I think it can be a decent 4$...

Which reminds me my older idea - how about a Throne Room, that makes you play a action 3 times, not 2. That seems like a nice boost, I think 5$ is probably good price, don't you think?

[DrHades]

I'd say it probably still should be valued at 6$, especially giving your opponent that bonus.

I think it works pretty well at $5, and evidently, so did Donald X. and the other Dominion playtesters/developers 

I think they were both sarcastic

[Donald X.]

See Subject.  With all the vanilla and near-vanilla action cards, it seems weird to me that there isn't one card that gives you cards and money, but no action points.  Is there any particular reason for that?

Side subject: How would you price this generic action?

+$2
+2 cards

$5?  $6?

When I showed the game to RGG, the main set had "+2 Cards +$2" for $5.

The card was strong and also boring. The +Cards encourages you not to buy many actions.

I haven't done "smaller" combinations of +Cards and +$ because those always look wonky to me.

[michaeljb]

I think they were both sarcastic

I got that Axxle's post was sarcastic, but didn't really think FireChipmunks was. Looking at it again the last sentence should have made it more clear.

I guess that makes me Ted here

[Davio]

See Subject.  With all the vanilla and near-vanilla action cards, it seems weird to me that there isn't one card that gives you cards and money, but no action points.  Is there any particular reason for that?

Side subject: How would you price this generic action?

+$2
+2 cards

$5?  $6?

[..]

The card was strong and also boring.

[..]

And yet IGG and Jack made it into later sets, so all hope is not lost for the +2C / +$2? 

I wouldn't worry so much about one card, especially later on in the cycle since with more cards available, the chance that a single card gets randomly chosen gets even smaller. That's also one of the reasons people buy expansions. With just the base game, a single card has 40% of appearing in the kingdom. "Aaah, not Witch again!?" "Yes, Witch again."

Making it $5 would make it a nice deal with BV.
But I think $6 is better.

Yes, it's probably pretty darn good in BMU-games, but so are a lot of other cards, like all the big drawers (Envoy, Council Room, even Smithy).

[pst]

I wouldn't worry so much about one card, especially later on in the cycle since with more cards available, the chance that a single card gets randomly chosen gets even smaller. That's also one of the reasons people buy expansions. With just the base game, a single card has 40% of appearing in the kingdom. "Aaah, not Witch again!?" "Yes, Witch again."

I don't think where in the cycle it is matters that much. An expansion, regardless of when it is published, should work fine for those who have only that and a standalone, so any card in a small expansion could be in play rather often (for those who randomize their kingdoms).

That's one interesting thing with Dark Ages, that it's so big. I guess that means Donald can consider cards he wouldn't want to have in a smaller expansion.

[Tables]

I personally have this in my fan expansion (I won't try and claim it's an original idea, of course). I haven't tested it a huge amount, but we've found it's a relatively nice card to have - partially because my set is very action/engine oriented, so having something more BM and simple contrasts with it well. It seems okay at $6 to us, even if it isn't the most exciting card.