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[EFHW]

I don't want to lynch RR.  His lack of meaningful contributions means we will learn very little from his flip, and no one has made any kind of case against him, so he'll probably flip town.

My preferences: gkrieg > Jake > faust > RR, ashersky, mcmc > Joseph, Awaclus, TWM

So you still want to lynch Jake because he might be my partner?  You are that convinced that I'm scum?

You are my strongest scum read. Given the apparent lack of interest, my second choice is Jake.  He is acting differently and you have been interacting with him more than usual.  People have defended him and tried to lynch him so his flip will be informative.

I'm confused. Is your argument that scum!gkrieg would openly coach his partner in the game thread?

Yes, especially Jake. Why is that confusing? None of the posts were obvious coaching - people give him advice all the time and the other posts were reasonable admonishments.

My theory about gkrieg could be wrong, but it is based on actual posts by him and is coherent. People are free to agree or disagree. This movement to lynch RR has no apparent basis other than disappointment that he hasn't contributed.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

I don't want to lynch RR.  His lack of meaningful contributions means we will learn very little from his flip, and no one has made any kind of case against him, so he'll probably flip town.

My preferences: gkrieg > Jake > faust > RR, ashersky, mcmc > Joseph, Awaclus, TWM

So you still want to lynch Jake because he might be my partner?  You are that convinced that I'm scum?

You are my strongest scum read. Given the apparent lack of interest, my second choice is Jake.  He is acting differently and you have been interacting with him more than usual.  People have defended him and tried to lynch him so his flip will be informative.

I'm confused. Is your argument that scum!gkrieg would openly coach his partner in the game thread?

Yes, especially Jake. Why is that confusing? None of the posts were obvious coaching - people give him advice all the time and the other posts were reasonable admonishments.

My theory about gkrieg could be wrong, but it is based on actual posts by him and is coherent. People are free to agree or disagree. This movement to lynch RR has no apparent basis other than disappointment that he hasn't contributed.

Again. As Faust said it isn't disappointment that he isn't contributing. That is gone and past. It is that he deliberately lied and said he would contribute to put us off from voting him and then didn't do what he said. I agree that a town RR would have posted more and not lied and manipulated us the way he did.

[EFHW]

Classifying RR as "lurker lynch" is extremely misleading.

I'll take a look at him. The rationale I'm hearing right now is we should lynch him because he is not contributing.  Isn't that a lurker lynch?  No other points are being made.

But Jake is more damaging to town than RR because he posts reads and votes with very little behind them, and unless you are scrupulous about noticing his posts, it's possible to be influenced by those posts inadvertently.

Well, he is currently lurking. He was already scummy before this started. Also he made a big post about how he will try to play better when he was under pressure and then didn't follow up. So it's pretty likely that that post was just AtE and manipulation. Town!RR would feel compelled to actually do something about this. So even his absence now, is not mere "lurking", but alignment-indicative.

Saying "he was already scummy before this started" is meaningless to me.  People do that hand-waving all the time, and it's scummy. Give me some examples. 

I think his AtE was genuine and I'm not surprised he feels hesitant about posting since then, since he really raised the bar of our expectations and doesn't know if he will be able to live up to it.

[gkrieg13]

vote: EFHW

I really don't remember her tunneling this much as town.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

And I don't buy that he couldn't think of anything to say when he has been around and reading. Even just basic reads would have been something. That means he is over thinking about what he posts and holding back because he is fearful. Who is fearful and holds back? Mafia.

[EFHW]

vote: EFHW

I really don't remember her tunneling this much as town.

It's unusual that I would have so many arguments about one person. OMGUS me if you want.  If I'm lynched, then people will know I was sincere and can take another look at what I had to say.

[gkrieg13]

Also the me coaching Jake thing is something I would do as either alignment. Some players have great instinct, and I was trying to give him advice to be better. It was honest advice.

[Roadrunner7671]

I like that TWM has become a RR expert in about 5 minutes. Sorry for 'being lying and manipulative,' that sounds exactly like something I'd do when trying to apologize.

[gkrieg13]

vote: EFHW

I really don't remember her tunneling this much as town.

It's unusual that I would have so many arguments about one person. OMGUS me if you want.  If I'm lynched, then people will know I was sincere and can take another look at what I had to say.

Now you are saying that my vote is OMGUS?  I think I voted for you first?

[EFHW]

vote: EFHW

I really don't remember her tunneling this much as town.

It's unusual that I would have so many arguments about one person. OMGUS me if you want.  If I'm lynched, then people will know I was sincere and can take another look at what I had to say.

Now you are saying that my vote is OMGUS?  I think I voted for you first?

I don't know who voted first.  I know your reread followed my beginning to put pressure on you.

I'm a better lynch than RR.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

I like that TWM has become a RR expert in about 5 minutes. Sorry for 'being lying and manipulative,' that sounds exactly like something I'd do when trying to apologize.

Well I don't think you purposely lied and manipulated at the time of writing the post. But rather, as you went back and tried to contributed you realized it was harder to live up to that expectation and ended up lying and manipulating after the fact.

But apologies without action aren't actually apologies. So you never actually apologized.

[EFHW]

I have reread RR. A few scummy posts I noticed:

 at 52 he comments on the short length of N0.
 at 455 He gives intent to hammer Robz but then says "remember I have no spine".
 at 543 He refuses to name his top three lynch choices.
 at 924 he claims not to notice deadlines
 
He had 109 posts.  He does a lot of policing of Jake.  Maybe that is even helpful to town, I don't know if Jake listens to him or not. He defends Joseph. He doesn't seem fearful at all.  He stands up to mcmc, faust, Awaclus and me when suspected. He gives Jake 4 different reasons why his plan was bad for town. There's the long chat with Jake that I assume provoked the apology.  A bit later the apology, and then nothing until Sat evening.

Things that are questionable:
 Why he only voted once in 2 game days.
 Why he didn't post again until almost 2 days after his apology.

[mcmcsalot]

Roadrunners recent posts have been very scummy. I definitely don't like the I don't know what to do post. He genuinely seems like he is invested but doesn't know what to do. Day one I think that points towny but this late in day two with this amount of cases made points toward scum. I know people keep acting like no one is posting but we actually just have a burst of posts then no posts for awhile. My case on Faust is detailed, efhw's on gkrieg is, fausts rereads on everyone have a lot of substance, jake and twm have commented on almost everything. There's tons here to go off of and rr's posts about not knowing what to do look to me like scum literally not knowing what people to side with.

This also makes me think our cases have found scum and rr doesn't want to join them but doesn't want to defend his partners and out them even more.

[EFHW]

I like that TWM has become a RR expert in about 5 minutes. Sorry for 'being lying and manipulative,' that sounds exactly like something I'd do when trying to apologize.

Well I don't think you purposely lied and manipulated at the time of writing the post. But rather, as you went back and tried to contributed you realized it was harder to live up to that expectation and ended up lying and manipulating after the fact.

But apologies without action aren't actually apologies. So you never actually apologized.

Can you point us to the lies and manipulation after the fact?

[The_Wine_Merchant]

I like that TWM has become a RR expert in about 5 minutes. Sorry for 'being lying and manipulative,' that sounds exactly like something I'd do when trying to apologize.

Well I don't think you purposely lied and manipulated at the time of writing the post. But rather, as you went back and tried to contributed you realized it was harder to live up to that expectation and ended up lying and manipulating after the fact.

But apologies without action aren't actually apologies. So you never actually apologized.

Can you point us to the lies and manipulation after the fact?

No. Because those posts don't exist. He didn't do what he said he would. I think he meant to when he initially said he was going to, so wasn't lying when he said it.

Like if I say I am going to pick you up,at the airport and fully intend to I am not lying. But if I get lazy and never show up I lied after the fact due to my omission.

[EFHW]

This also makes me think our cases have found scum and rr doesn't want to join them but doesn't want to defend his partners and out them even more.

That narrative also works.  But he could have voted for me, or for you (assuming you are town).  There was some interest expressed there. And we had three wagons.  If he is scum, then one of them would be on town and he could join that one.

[Roadrunner7671]

Roadrunners recent posts have been very scummy. I definitely don't like the I don't know what to do post. He genuinely seems like he is invested but doesn't know what to do. Day one I think that points towny but this late in day two with this amount of cases made points toward scum. I know people keep acting like no one is posting but we actually just have a burst of posts then no posts for awhile. My case on Faust is detailed, efhw's on gkrieg is, fausts rereads on everyone have a lot of substance, jake and twm have commented on almost everything. There's tons here to go off of and rr's posts about not knowing what to do look to me like scum literally not knowing what people to side with.

This also makes me think our cases have found scum and rr doesn't want to join them but doesn't want to defend his partners and out them even more.

RR, whether he was town or scum, has never really been conflicted like this. I don't know what the problem is, if I knew it obviously wouldn't be a problem. I am invested in this game though. I just can't figure anything out.

[mcmcsalot]

This also makes me think our cases have found scum and rr doesn't want to join them but doesn't want to defend his partners and out them even more.

That narrative also works.  But he could have voted for me, or for you (assuming you are town).  There was some interest expressed there. And we had three wagons.  If he is scum, then one of them would be on town and he could join that one.

Yea I guess that's true, urgh that actually makes rr look townier. Like actually why doesn't scum!rr at least sheep a case on a towny. Maybe he was gone during the times those cases were going on and he would have to actually add to one of those wagons and he doesn't know how to do that?

[JaketheBaseballGod22]

I'm back and wow that was some serious arguing. Ok first of all I would like to state that from what iv'e been reading this is my lynch list.

Awa>RR>McEFHW>Big G>Faust>TWM>mcmc>Asher>Joseph

Awa is because of previously stated cases and I don't believe his claim where

RR because of previously made cases and in all the games iv'e played with him where he is town he never lurks and is alway much more helpful and if he is lurking he has a reason whereas here he doesn't

EFHW is Targeting way to much, more than iv'e seen her do before and as such

Big G for other cases and I didn't like the fake town slip

Faust for other cases 

TWM has completely changed his play style and because I'm 99% sure there's a vet scum I'm pretty confident he got coached a ton over night

mcmc has done some contributing and wouldn't lynch today

asher just hasn't done enough today

Joseph is a IC

@Whoever used the coaching argument against me i took a break from mafia in december and sorta changed my play style (hopefully for the better) which might explain your coaching thing

[Roadrunner7671]

RR because in all the games iv'e played with him where he is town he never lurks and is alway much more helpful and if he is lurking he has a reason whereas here he doesn't

But check games where I was scum, I didn't play 'like this' either. Since it's new, it can't really be alignment indicative.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

Faust for other cases 

Since you are back. Please answer my previous questions to you in regard to your vote on faust.

Thank you.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

TWM has completely changed his play style and because I'm 99% sure there's a vet scum I'm pretty confident he got coached a ton over night

Also see my points about this previously that you completely ignored.

TL;DR: According to you I have changed. No one else appears to think that. Further the examples you gave would be advice that would be more likely to get me lynched today. So your point doesn't make any sense.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

For reference:

Vote: Faust Just catching up and still won't be super active till Sunday night but I did a quick reread on Faust and have now been convinced of his scumminess.

This is very unexpected given the post below from 1 day ago below and not something that a "quick reread" would be able to cause:

1. Awaclus
2. TWM
3. Ashersky
4. Mcmc: Where is this dude. I don't trust the massive controversialness and how he lurks a ton
5. RR
6. McEFHW
7. Big G
8. Joseph
9. faust

Plus this post from a few days before the one above.

The only person I wouldn't lynch would be Faust.

This looks potentially opportunistic to me with mcmc's and ash's votes already on faust. At the very least I think it requires a better explanation for why the change happened. Or was the town read on faust from before (he had him above Joseph) fabricated? Obviously though, that would have been better supplied at the time of the vote and not only after being questioned about it.

These were all posted before the battery of cases against Faust that have made him seem scummy in my eyes

Which cases? Did you agree with all the points? What did you agree with them about? What did you think of faust's defenses?

and

Yeah but yours has gone from learning and making solid points to just casting out random non helpful remarks and starting fights instead of helping like you were early D-1 and making cases as well as telling us who you think is scum.

What about my points today hasn't been solid? I am asking questions that I think are relevant and your negativity isn't going to stop me from continuing to do that.

[EFHW]

I might be on in the 15 minutes before deadline.  I'll check in in the a.m. as well.

[JaketheBaseballGod22]

For reference:

Vote: Faust Just catching up and still won't be super active till Sunday night but I did a quick reread on Faust and have now been convinced of his scumminess.

This is very unexpected given the post below from 1 day ago below and not something that a "quick reread" would be able to cause:

1. Awaclus
2. TWM
3. Ashersky
4. Mcmc: Where is this dude. I don't trust the massive controversialness and how he lurks a ton
5. RR
6. McEFHW
7. Big G
8. Joseph
9. faust

Plus this post from a few days before the one above.

The only person I wouldn't lynch would be Faust.

This looks potentially opportunistic to me with mcmc's and ash's votes already on faust. At the very least I think it requires a better explanation for why the change happened. Or was the town read on faust from before (he had him above Joseph) fabricated? Obviously though, that would have been better supplied at the time of the vote and not only after being questioned about it.

These were all posted before the battery of cases against Faust that have made him seem scummy in my eyes

Which cases? Did you agree with all the points? What did you agree with them about? What did you think of faust's defenses?

and

Yeah but yours has gone from learning and making solid points to just casting out random non helpful remarks and starting fights instead of helping like you were early D-1 and making cases as well as telling us who you think is scum.

What about my points today hasn't been solid? I am asking questions that I think are relevant and your negativity isn't going to stop me from continuing to do that.

Didn't say they weren't