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[JaketheBaseballGod22]

Vote: Calamitas for now then.
His only D2 post was bad.

Uhhh you know he's dead right

It's a joke. Let me explain it to you: Calamitas didn't realize he was dead and posted in the thread after D2 started. That is bad, and so Calamitas' only D2 post was in fact bad.

I know that but just making sure because I don't know his state of mind due to his not doing much

[gkrieg13]

faust is acting very strange.

[Roadrunner7671]

faust is acting very strange.

I don't like it, but I don't know if it's 'strange'

[JaketheBaseballGod22]

faust is acting very strange.

Why because he's actually making cases and trying to find scum unlike others?

[gkrieg13]

faust is acting very strange.

Why because he's actually making cases and trying to find scum unlike others?

No, it is because he is actively trying to get me not interested in this game.

[faust]

faust is acting very strange.

Why because he's actually making cases and trying to find scum unlike others?

No, it is because he is actively trying to get me not interested in this game.

Man, even if I was willing to do that, I just wouldn't know where to begin.

[gkrieg13]

faust is acting very strange.

Why because he's actually making cases and trying to find scum unlike others?

No, it is because he is actively trying to get me not interested in this game.

Man, even if I was willing to do that, I just wouldn't know where to begin.

Well you can start by continuing to refuse to comment on my post about EFHW other than that Calamitas is dead.

[EFHW]

There is a right and wrong way to play.

Right now Jake and I are playing the wrong way

It's better than not playing like most of the people in this game.

That is debatable.  I'm surprised no one has really commented on my commentary on EFHW.

Was it the one in the same post where you scumread Calamitas? That might affect how seriously you are taken.

What is wrong with that?  Actually what is this supposed to mean?  You literally are choosing to disregard anything I say about EFHW because I also voiced opinions about someone else?  Can you see how scummy that is?

Well, the fact that you continue to voice your opinion on a dead player brings up the question of how involved in the game you really are.

Your interpretation is more charitable than mine.  I was wondering if he was trying to "townslip".

[gkrieg13]

I don't want to lynch mcmc at this point.  The contributions he did make were towny, and I didn't get the feeling he had any particular agenda.

So, to start off, it looks like mcmcsalot is the only wagon at the end of D1 that I don't read as town/know is town.  So really I'm just looking for people who were deflecting off of it in the 6 people I mentioned earlier (those alive - me/faust/Awaclus/Joseph).  Also those people that were trying to consolidate wagons, to avoid wagons on other people.

I would say that if mcmcsalot is scum, EFHW is a likely partner.

I would prefer a robz or mcmc lynch. mcmc is lurking hard and as soon as we started to point that out he came in caused a to of chaos and then went back to lurking so it's not really just a lurker lynch.

This I think continues to give Jake town points.

It is true, from whoever said it, that RR does pretty much only talk about Jake.

Need to grab quotes and I need to go to sleep so will wait till morning to post my full case but i am going to vote: faust as he believed joseph was towny before his claim when I think he almost certainly looked scummy and he has repeatedly supported jake's plan to narrow the lynch pool which I think is much more scummy then jakes very damaging but I think town inspired plan.

I'm interested to see your case, but this close to deadline, voting off the 3 existing wagons probably isn't very helpful.

More urging from EFHW to stay on the mislynches.

Calamitas doesn't offer very much.  He could also be scum.

ash also keeps pushing the Robz wagon, although at this point, it is obvious that one of the major wagons (me/Awa/Robz) is probably going to lynch.

But ash also tries to lynch outside of the existing wagons, so town points to him.

Ok, so TWM (not from this) comes out townie and so does ash.

I think EFHW is the scummiest from this, and also mcmcsalot comes on right after deadline (eerily so).  I think I call a EFHW/mcmcsalot/RR team here.

vote: EFHW

reposting so it doesn't get lost

[The_Wine_Merchant]

Only going to respond to points that I think I can respond to:

Starts off with usual newbie-ish stuff. Though I think this is a bit artificial:

So what are the most important things I should know coming into playing a game as a new player? Is it more important to make sure everyone else knows I am a town player or is it to try and find out who are the mafia players?

I don't know why you would think it is artificial. It is a legitimate question to ask. And the answers I got back I thought were pretty helpful. They have shaped, in a large sense, how I have tried to play.

I don't think WW is playing!

I guess that means that gk and idontplay both haven't actually voted yet this game. Does that mean anything?

I don't like this question. It's very hedgy and at the same time it is playing the newbie card.

It seems like you just don't like me asking questions and trying to figure things out. I don't get that. It is like you want me to have a bunch of experience with this game, that I couldn't conceivably have.

So here is the thing. Joseph right now, I think feels that he has a free pass, as multiple people have said he is townie if he acts crazy. So he has to continue that charade for the sake of conforming to what multiple people say they expect of him. He has to continue to be weird and strange and nonsensical and do annoying things. Because that is what the people want from him. I think if he were town, he would just stop acting that way and act with a semblance of normalcy. He hasn't, so I don't think he is town and I think the people who are not voting for him should listen to me, even I am a new player. I am coming at this without bias or much previous knowledge and I think others are overly relying on their previous biases and expectations.

I think the flip-flopping TWM does here is not that easy to do as scum. On the other hand, given Joseph's annoyingness, scum!TWM might have seen an opening to still get that lynch here.

There is some setup analysis going on about whether someone should counterclaim afterwards... which, fine. But really TWM is very focused on Joseph up until here and hasn't given many other reads, which is probematic. He continues down walking a very thin line about whether or not Joseph should be lynched without counterclaim. Which of course is something scum wants, but wouldn't push. He looks like trying to find a townie that he can blame for getting Joseph lynched, not willing to take responsibility himself.

Did you check to see if any others were giving reads about other players at this point? From memory it seems as if the whole game was revolving around Joseph at this point for just about everyone. I think you are finding me scummy due to a lack of context.

How about this. We don't lynch Joseph today but if he's still alive tomorrow we lynch him. If he dies during the night the n we know he was being truthful. Does that satisfy everyone? If so who are possible D-1 lynchs for us. I say one of the lurkers like Mcmc or Awa

From the few historical games I read a lurker lynch ended up being pretty random. I would be more inclined to go for RR (he had some stuff in the past that I found suspicious) or Robz if we are choosing to keep Joseph alive.

And I don't like if/then statements. I feel like they are too easy for mafia to manipulate.

Why Robz?

It was revealed that Robz had pushed for and achieved a lynch on a claimed PR Day1 previously as mafia in M88.

Don't like this read. It is sheeping disguised as your own thoughts, and it's not even a good case.

I never disguised it as my own thoughts. I attributed it to others. And sure, it isn't a good case now that we now Robz was town. That is very easy to say now on Day2.

And this is Robz's one post between that time and when faust started to vote for him and sent the Robz wagon snowballing (at that point Robz does point at Awaclus, but only after heavy voting). I had thought if the consensus had been more apparent this would have been the time that Robz should have called for Awaclus to claim if he felt that Awaclus was the UB. But he didn't, but I am not sure if that is because Robz didn't feel that way or if because he didn't want to.

Robz is at L-1, has explained his reasoning, and TWM is trying to softly push for his lynch. I don't like this.

Again, not liking me trying to figure things out.

I know it's odd, but both things are true: he deserves to live another day because he's putting in effort, but I also think he's scum. I mean, if we had more time left I might try to build that case, but it's not happening so it doesn't really matter for right now.

EFHW just seems very in line with the last few games I've played with her.

If you die, you should make it anyway, at least a summary, and PM it to yourself to post later. I would like to read it after the game

ash pointed this out as scummy; I agree. A townie isn't very concerned about why he's being OMGUS'd.

I feel like I committed a faux pas here and I am sorry. No one had really made a case on me through Day1 and I was curious what that might include.

Vote Count 1.11

Robz888 (4): The_Wine_Merchant, ashersky, gkrieg13, Awaclus
Awaclus (4): Joseph2302, JaketheBaseballGod22, Calamitas, Robz888
gkrieg13 (2): EFHW, faust
faust (1): mcmcsalot

Not Voting (1): Roadrunner7671

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends at Jan. 7th at 12:00 pm forum time. This is in 30 minutes.

In going back and reviewing I feel like this is a fairly important moment. Especially if, as faust says, mafia wouldn't have really cared about trying to lynch a claimed VT. Because there was a claimed PR. If mafia wanted to try and lynch a claimed PR (unless Awaclus is mafia in which, they would have obviously tried to avoid it which bears worth looking at), wouldn't they have tried to go down that road?

This continues a certain trend I see in TWM's posts of picking up something someone else said that is useful for him and spinning it further. Which cleverly makes it seem as though you are not the one pushing that argument. Same with the following post:

Jake made a case against someone (Robz?).

I forgot about that.

His case, http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16687.msg667320#msg667320, makes me trust his supposed anger even less, when initially he was a big part of the wagon and lynch even if he wasn't actually on it at the end.

Jake is being the guy that is mad when he rear ends someone after tailgating too closely, to use another roadrage reference.

[/quote]
More not liking me trying to figure things out and asking questions. But this time not liking rereading and remembering. 

Well your point about RR is pretty good as well. I went back and checked and he didn't have a real vote on anyone all game. He had a couple that were really early on Jake. When I noticed his odd interactions with Jake I checked to see if he had been voting, but I guess those early votes lead me to believe he was voting more often.

I think I might go look at other RR games as town/mafia and see if there is a correlation as this seems potentially significant.

I really don't like going after Jake/RR here (especially both). This is too easy.

Aren't you voting for RR right now?

I see, so you think that I was a scum wagon, and that Awaclus and Robz were town wagons.

Well, based on what you are saying, I know that all three wagons were on town.  I'll go back and do a little wagon analyisis then.

If you are town then all 4 major wagons from yesterday were on town. That would imply either town was majorly off or mafia had a major hand in directing the wagons. Or you are mafia and only 3 of 4 major wagons were on town, but I am still hesitant to think that given how similar you and I seem to be thinking.

Here's an extreme willingness to accept my input on Awaclus. Which is scummy.

I already explained this, I didn't accept your read on awaclus. I was trying to extrapolate an idea for gkrieg.

Jake's wagon right now is the biggest, but annoyingly I think it might have hit its peak in terms of growth for some odd reason. Given that I think there is a good to decent chance they are in fact scummates, I'll put my vote behind a RoadRunner lynch. I don't agree with everything faust lists here, but there is enough--a lot that I already pointed out--that makes RoadRunner look like potential mafia even with the Jake tie-ins excluded.

Jake would you be willing to vote for RoadRunner? What do you think of faust's points?

vote: RoadRunner

Scummy overexplaining of why he leaves the guy he tunneled. Additionally, if RR turns out to be scum, he already sets Jake up as his partner.

So there is some towny stuff in here, but overall I feel that all his play helps scum. There is also lots of tunneling going on while he basically never posts reads on other players; I don't know his reads on gkrieg, me, Awaclus etc.

I guess I just don't think that I am tunneling. At least I am not doing it intentionally. But you seem pretty insistent that I am doing it.

And I really don't know what to make of you or Awaclus. Awaclus just hasn't given enough to get a good read on and I want to think that you are town, just because I don't know what you would look like as mafia. Probably exactly the same. I believe I have stated repeatedly that I have a town read on gkrieg.

I feel like faust doesn't like that I am trying in my own way to figure the game out. Asking questions, referencing other people's posts, being unsure. Maybe those things are scummy to him, but it is really just me trying to play the game and I don't know if there is anything I can do to change that other than stop trying to play the game, which seems like a poor solution to me.

[EFHW]

I have lots to say about your recent reread. 

1. To me, it felt contrived.  Why pick the mcmc wagon to analyze?  There was never any strong movement toward lynching mcmc, so interpreting people's actions in light of that wagon is misleading and omits the contexts of those actions.
2. How do you decide if it's scummy to be on or off that wagon when you don't know he is scum?  You say the wagons can't all be on town, but the only confirmed town wagon we have is Robz's.
3. Since when is it scummy to encourage people to consolidate their votes less than a day before the deadline?  I've gotten that comment from people when I've voted off wagons towards the end of the day. 
4.  As was noted earlier, Calamitas is dead. He was also town.
5. Town points to Jake?  For making up the story that mcmc created chaos?
6. When you said "more urging from EFHW to stay on the mislynches," that was actually the first example you gave me of doing that.  So using "more" is misleading, as is "mislynches".  The only mislynch we know about is Robz's.
7. How is that you give ashersky town points for pushing the Robz mislynch and me scumpoints for moving mcmc from a slight scumread to a null read? If you look more carefully at the quote from me that you started with, I don't say he's town, I say I don't want to lynch him that day.

I wish I could double vote.

PPE: TWM

[faust]

I wish I could double vote.

Well, I can vote: EFHW if that helps.

I didn't think much of gkrieg's post (ater all his EFHW read was hinging on a single post, but that defense is kinda scummy.

[EFHW]

I wish I could double vote.

Well, I can vote: EFHW if that helps.

I didn't think much of gkrieg's post (ater all his EFHW read was hinging on a single post, but that defense is kinda scummy.

In what way?  I think I overreached with the last sentence, but anything else?  I was definitely irked at being voted and pressed as a lynch based on so many logical fallacies.

[EFHW]

faust, why have you been jumping around so much?  This is the sequence of votes: gkrieg, McG/me, Robz, Joseph, mcmc, gkrieg again, Robz again, mcmc again, RR, TWM, me.  I don't know if you actually think any of us are scum.

[EFHW]

faust didn't vote TWM.  My bad.

[faust]

faust, why have you been jumping around so much?  This is the sequence of votes: gkrieg, McG/me, Robz, Joseph, mcmc, gkrieg again, Robz again, mcmc again, RR, TWM, me.  I don't know if you actually think any of us are scum.

Why would I not jump around? I'm trying to figure stuff out.

[schadd]

Vote Count 2.4

faust (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
JaketheBaseballGod22 (2): The_Wine_Merchant, Awaclus
EFHW (2): gkrieg13, faust
Roadrunner7671 (1): JaketheBaseballGod22
gkrieg13 (1): EFHW

Not voting (1): Roadrunner7671
-_- (1): Joseph2302

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 ends Jan. 16th at 12pm forum time

[Joseph2302]

So what we have is:

#953- Jake made a case on Awaclus. I don't like the case, since it asserts that Awaclus is not a 1-shot RB. A fakeclaim of this seems odd and this unlikely. ash pointed this out in #954. Awaclus responded to the case on in #959
#958- faust evaluates mcmc on him, and determines it's nothing
#968- faust reread mcmc and doesn't find him scummy
#974/981- gkrieg thinks he's towny because of the wagons yesterday- I don't really agree. We had 3 possible mislynch wagons yesterday (on the assumption Awa is town), so there's almost certainly some scum in there.
#994- EFHW votes gkrieg, no explanation
#1003- Jake revotes on Awaclus. RR thinks it's an OMGUS, and then there's a discussion about it. faust seems kinda towny from this, RR not so much. RR seems to spend every game finding Jake scummy, but it's not helpful unless he's actually scum.
#1023- faust rereads RR and votes for him. I agree with faust that RR has only voted Jake (who he always voted for), and no other indication of scum reads.
#1028- gkrieg does some reads. Finds jake, TWM, ash towny, EFHW scummy. Also says that "Calamitas could be scum"-like WTF? He's dead, and was VT. We know this.
#1033- Wine votes RR, but also asks other people to vote RR which is kinda odd
#1038- jake say's he'd vote for anyone except faust. This is hedgy, and also means he's open to lynching a UB/IC and also a 1-shot RB.
Then some nonsense between RR and jake again. I think jake would potentially lynch anyone except me, him & faust (although why am I higher up his scum list than faust, when I'm an IC?!).

What a relief that the IC is so engaged he doesn't even know who's playing.

Yes I do no. I'm trying to stir conversation. Same with the Calamitas joke thing.

#1088- RR thinks I'm not IC. Odd? And I agree with faust that masons should have claimed by now i.e. there aren't any.
And then some more Jake/RR nonsense.

#1120- concludes that Wine has done some town, but more scum, things. I'm kinda null on Wine right now.
#1135- some good points from EFHW on gkrieg. Like why pick mcmc to analyse? The person that has done the least. I think EFHW and gkrieg aren't on the same team.


PPE: 4

[Joseph2302]

So my reading is now:

Town: me, faust, Awaclus, jake
Null: Wine, ash
Scummy: RR, mcmc (no activity)

And I need to work out which one of EFHW & gkrieg is scummy.

[Joseph2302]

I like a Vote: RR. People were liking voting RR, why did that cease to be a thing?

[faust]

Well at least my reads mostly align with the IC's. That's a good thing.

I wanted to say that I really think that gkrieg's Calamitas mention has not been a fake. That doesn't really make sense with the rest of the game since a) he did it before and I think scum would not do the same "townslip" again b) he was already getting some suspicion for "pretending to be disinterested" on D1; I don't think scum would try that move if they already got suspected for something similar.

[faust]

That said, it's not impossible for scum!gkrieg to have forgotten about killing Calamitas. But it's way less likely than that he's town.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

#1033- Wine votes RR, but also asks other people to vote RR which is kinda odd

I think there is a good chance they are both scum and all of their interactions are just attempts to distract over compensate from that. The only player I asked was Jake if he would be willing to vote for RR to see how he would respond. He hedged initially, but eventually decided to vote for him after that whole two page long ramble.

How are you seeing RR scummy, but not Jake?

[faust]

I like a Vote: RR. People were liking voting RR, why did that cease to be a thing?

Mostly because I'm less worried about scum!RR than about, say, scum!EFHW or scum!ash.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

I like a Vote: RR. People were liking voting RR, why did that cease to be a thing?

Mostly because I'm less worried about scum!RR than about, say, scum!EFHW or scum!ash.

This is one of the first things that has really made me take pause about faust.