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[faust]

Checking in.

I'm no longer VLA tomorrow, which'll be awesome. I don't really like the Faust wagon, but I'll probably have to read instead of skim-read.

Faust wagon consists of 2 people, one of whom is probably RVSing.
Jake will come also, right?

Well, Idon thinks I'm scummy too apparently. Treating it as a wagon is probably better than ignoring it, because this way we'll have something to talk about.

[Calamitas]

Well, his proposal has been definitely anti-town. It would have been awful if a newbie would have listened. And I don't think faust would act that foolish as town, ever. There is no town narrative that justifies that. As scum he might try any number of things, he could always claim "I wouldn't play that shallow as scum" (see roads response in #117) and just get away with it. So yeah, this is a serious vote.

[faust]

Well, his proposal has been definitely anti-town. It would have been awful if a newbie would have listened. And I don't think faust would act that foolish as town, ever. There is no town narrative that justifies that. As scum he might try any number of things, he could always claim "I wouldn't play that shallow as scum" (see roads response in #117) and just get away with it. So yeah, this is a serious vote.

Except it would not have been awful. Like seriously. I'm not saying that scum would never push a plan that is anti-town, but it's a very thin line. You don't just come out of the blue and do that.

Did you consider that we might have a theory disagreement? I mean gkrieg thinks the same way I do, and we have more experience in this than you. Are we scumpartners then?

[Calamitas]

Again, why this plan is awful:

Scenario A - No claim:
Player X and Y are PRs, none claims. Town lynches anyone besides them (if close to lynch they would claim) and scum must kill basically randomly. Later they may decide to claim to gain IC status or force scum to counterclaim which increases the probability of a scum lynch significantly.

Scenario B - 1 Claim:
Player X and Y are PRs again. X claims D1. X is an IC but still a PR. Town lynches again anyone besides X and Y and scum kills X. Killing PRs has been the goal for scum anyways, so they are happy that they know X and just take him out. Town has just lost a PR with a probability of close to 1 for literally no benefit.

[faust]

I would appreciate it if you actually answered to my post instead of retreating to pure theory-crafting. Still, let's take a look at your claims.

Scenario A - No claim:
Player X and Y are PRs, none claims. Town lynches anyone besides them (if close to lynch they would claim)

Let's just pause here and note that this has not worked well in the past and there is no reason to assume that it will work here.

and scum must kill basically randomly. Later they may decide to claim to gain IC status or force scum to counterclaim which increases the probability of a scum lynch significantly.

First, scum would not force a 1-1 situation if it would actually increase the probability of their team winning. So the counterclaim scenario is bad. Second, look at the bad outcome here - we lynch one of our PRs. If scum claims first, they can out our more powerful PR. So in the bad case scenario, we lynch our most powerful PR, with is something we don't ever want to do.

Scenario B - 1 Claim:
Player X and Y are PRs again. X claims D1. X is an IC but still a PR. Town lynches again anyone besides X and Y and scum kills X. Killing PRs has been the goal for scum anyways, so they are happy that they know X and just take him out.

Let's interject again because ou apparently do not read what I write. X would be the weaker PR. If they lnch them, they guarantee that the stronger PR can get results in. Which matters in a small game. So first off, scum's decision is not that easy.

Town has just lost a PR with a probability of close to 1 for literally no benefit.

Literally wrong, as explained. Not to mention that scum's goal is not only to take out PRs, but also strong players. This may seem harsh, but I'd rather have scum kill a newbie lurker PR than say, gkrieg.

[faust]

Now I regret posting that. We should move away from theory. Every potential PR has already had the time to make up their mind, so let's move on.

Calamitas is a decent place for my vote. Their intent to make a theory disagreement into a scumtell is a typical way for scum to fabricate reads.

[Calamitas]

What you wrote there is just wrong. Will respond when I get access to a computer.

[faust]

What you wrote there is just wrong. Will respond when I get access to a computer.

Please don't.

[faust]

Or maybe that's unfair; you can have the last word if you wish. Just don't expect me to respond, and don't assume you won the argument if I don't respond.

[LaLight]

come on guys, i still see you're both right, stop quarreling!

We haven't heard from Jake yet, so he may be such a PR.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

It's possible that it's my newness speaking, but I'm leaning Faust as scum due to this claim discussion.

Well, let's see. What about it makes you think that I could be scum?

Sorry for the late response. I reread the set-up and changed my mind; I'm still not convinced claiming is correct, but I'm also not convinced it's a scum move. It would be pretty bad if we lost both of our PRs before D2 (we accidentally lynch one and scum NKs the other) but I don't see how avoiding that by guaranteeing they're both NKd by D3 is significantly better.

If theory talk is over, I'll end that there, but I'm starting to like the claim idea more.

[Calamitas]

Or maybe that's unfair; you can have the last word if you wish. Just don't expect me to respond, and don't assume you won the argument if I don't respond.

I don't care about winning arguments at al but I don't want town to actually follow through with claiming.

[faust]

I got that. Now can you answer my questions here:

Did you consider that we might have a theory disagreement? I mean gkrieg thinks the same way I do, and we have more experience in this than you. Are we scumpartners then?

[Calamitas]

I got that. Now can you answer my questions here:

Did you consider that we might have a theory disagreement? I mean gkrieg thinks the same way I do, and we have more experience in this than you. Are we scumpartners then?

Gkrieg might haven't thought it through, but I still don't like it. Bringing it up the first place is orders of magnitudes worse though.

[faust]

That's just nonsense.

Okay, look into scum!me's head here: "Oh, I have this evil plan to out town's PRs. It' amazing! Well, it'll out one of them, maybe. The weakest. Also of course I can never convince vets to do this, because well it never ever works, the will do what they do regardless of what I say. But hey! I can still out weak newbie PRs. Then my team can kill them off and eliminate the tremendous threat posed by brand new players trying to utilize complicated weak PRs like Weak Visitor and Motion Detector!"

[LaLight]

town points to both, let's move further.

[faust]

town points to both, let's move further.

Okay then, move.

[gkrieg13]

I got that. Now can you answer my questions here:

Did you consider that we might have a theory disagreement? I mean gkrieg thinks the same way I do, and we have more experience in this than you. Are we scumpartners then?

Gkrieg might haven't thought it through, but I still don't like it. Bringing it up the first place is orders of magnitudes worse though.

I did think it through and I agree with Faust still and also agree that we should move forward and talk about something that doesn't exclude all of the newbies here who haven't posted for at least a page.

[gkrieg13]

I also don't think Calamitas is scummy from this. I don't get why he would think Faust is scummy though. LaLight trying to move things along could be trying to match his town meta (how he plays as town) as scum.

[Calamitas]

As long as nobody actually wants to claim I'm fine with moving onward. Though I still don't like faust's play here.

[LaLight]

See, I know that's the topic we can talk about and it's relevant and important, it's just i think it needs to be toned down a little.

So, I want to hear something from RR, Jake and Alec. Their thoughts on what's going on and all this stuff with claiming.

[LaLight]

I also don't think Calamitas is scummy from this. I don't get why he would think Faust is scummy though. LaLight trying to move things along could be trying to match his town meta (how he plays as town) as scum.

Yeah, okay, that's my meta and how i play games, so it's not alignment-indicative :-P

[gkrieg13]

I also don't think Calamitas is scummy from this. I don't get why he would think Faust is scummy though. LaLight trying to move things along could be trying to match his town meta (how he plays as town) as scum.

Yeah, okay, that's my meta and how i play games, so it's not alignment-indicative :-P

I don't remember playing with you when you were scum. So I'm not sure how much you try to emulate your meta.

[gkrieg13]

Oh now I remember which game it was, but I don't remember how you acted.

[LaLight]

I also don't think Calamitas is scummy from this. I don't get why he would think Faust is scummy though. LaLight trying to move things along could be trying to match his town meta (how he plays as town) as scum.

Yeah, okay, that's my meta and how i play games, so it's not alignment-indicative :-P

I don't remember playing with you when you were scum. So I'm not sure how much you try to emulate your meta.

M86, we were scums together. And i pushed the game there.

PPE: 1 here are the answers