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Author Topic: M88: Covert Affairs Mafia (Game Over! Mafia Wins!)  (Read 127450 times)

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gkrieg13

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Re: M88: Covert Affairs Mafia (Open for Signups!)
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2016, 05:56:37 pm »

Shouldn't miller/framed have negative utilities? And what exactly does vanillaising do?

I like the suggestion that modifiers which don't do anything for VTs are handled as a different modifier with an effect in that cases.

I didn't put negative utilities on them because they aren't that common.  Miller needs a neapolitan to actually target you, which isn't that likely, and the same goes for the watcher/tracker.  They are so unlikely to happen, that they are pretty null.

I changed the setup to now include different modifiers for VTs.  What do people think?
Forgot about the first part, you're right in that case.

I like the different modifiers, though i think the discrepany between random and weak (on the vt side) is too big. I think one of them should be "two out of miller/framed/macho".

That is what weak is supposed to be.
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faust

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Re: M88: Covert Affairs Mafia (Open for Signups!)
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2016, 07:22:42 pm »

You have ascetic as a positive modifier (+2) for VT. Ascetic is negative utility on a VT.
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Calamitas

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Re: M88: Covert Affairs Mafia (Open for Signups!)
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2016, 12:00:50 am »

Shouldn't miller/framed have negative utilities? And what exactly does vanillaising do?

I like the suggestion that modifiers which don't do anything for VTs are handled as a different modifier with an effect in that cases.

I didn't put negative utilities on them because they aren't that common.  Miller needs a neapolitan to actually target you, which isn't that likely, and the same goes for the watcher/tracker.  They are so unlikely to happen, that they are pretty null.

I changed the setup to now include different modifiers for VTs.  What do people think?
Forgot about the first part, you're right in that case.

I like the different modifiers, though i think the discrepany between random and weak (on the vt side) is too big. I think one of them should be "two out of miller/framed/macho".

That is what weak is supposed to be.
I meant that all three vs. one of the negative modifiers shouldn't be worth -3 vs. -2 points since the former is way worse.
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Oh, i just don't like mafia games.

Town (5/9): M85, RMM35, M87, NM9, M90RMM38, M92, M91, M102,
Scum (3/3): M84, M88, M100

MVPs (1): M84

Calamitas

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Re: M88: Covert Affairs Mafia (Open for Signups!)
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2016, 11:44:35 am »

How exactly does the randomizing work? Is there one pool and modifiers and roles are picked from that pool until the sum is greater than 7?
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Oh, i just don't like mafia games.

Town (5/9): M85, RMM35, M87, NM9, M90RMM38, M92, M91, M102,
Scum (3/3): M84, M88, M100

MVPs (1): M84

gkrieg13

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Re: M88: Covert Affairs Mafia (Open for Signups!)
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2016, 12:09:30 pm »

Shouldn't miller/framed have negative utilities? And what exactly does vanillaising do?

I like the suggestion that modifiers which don't do anything for VTs are handled as a different modifier with an effect in that cases.

I didn't put negative utilities on them because they aren't that common.  Miller needs a neapolitan to actually target you, which isn't that likely, and the same goes for the watcher/tracker.  They are so unlikely to happen, that they are pretty null.

I changed the setup to now include different modifiers for VTs.  What do people think?
Forgot about the first part, you're right in that case.

I like the different modifiers, though i think the discrepany between random and weak (on the vt side) is too big. I think one of them should be "two out of miller/framed/macho".

That is what weak is supposed to be.
I meant that all three vs. one of the negative modifiers shouldn't be worth -3 vs. -2 points since the former is way worse.

There is supposed to be a x2 for the -2 section.  So -3 is all three and -2 is two out of miller/framed/macho.

How exactly does the randomizing work? Is there one pool and modifiers and roles are picked from that pool until the sum is greater than 7?

I switch off.  So I start with a modifier then pick a role and continue until the sum is greater than or equal to 7
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faust

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Re: M88: Covert Affairs Mafia (Open for Signups!)
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2016, 12:25:27 pm »

How exactly does the randomizing work? Is there one pool and modifiers and roles are picked from that pool until the sum is greater than 7?

I switch off.  So I start with a modifier then pick a role and continue until the sum is greater than or equal to 7
What happens if this process does not terminate until you picked 7 PRs? Like you could have a game with 7 Random Roleblockers, and end up with a score of -7.
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Calamitas

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Re: M88: Covert Affairs Mafia (Open for Signups!)
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2016, 12:27:08 pm »

Okay, so it is guaranteed that n <= m <= n+1 with n being the number of roles and m being the number of modifiers. Good to know that :)
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Oh, i just don't like mafia games.

Town (5/9): M85, RMM35, M87, NM9, M90RMM38, M92, M91, M102,
Scum (3/3): M84, M88, M100

MVPs (1): M84

gkrieg13

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Re: M88: Covert Affairs Mafia (Open for Signups!)
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2016, 01:08:13 pm »

How exactly does the randomizing work? Is there one pool and modifiers and roles are picked from that pool until the sum is greater than 7?

I switch off.  So I start with a modifier then pick a role and continue until the sum is greater than or equal to 7
What happens if this process does not terminate until you picked 7 PRs? Like you could have a game with 7 Random Roleblockers, and end up with a score of -7.

Well I guess I would just keep going. Just keep choosing roles and modifiers. I mean clearly this isn't going to happen. But I guess you could just stop after each player has a role and modifier
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Calamitas

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Re: M88: Covert Affairs Mafia (Open for Signups!)
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2016, 01:12:21 pm »

How exactly does the randomizing work? Is there one pool and modifiers and roles are picked from that pool until the sum is greater than 7?

I switch off.  So I start with a modifier then pick a role and continue until the sum is greater than or equal to 7
What happens if this process does not terminate until you picked 7 PRs? Like you could have a game with 7 Random Roleblockers, and end up with a score of -7.

Well I guess I would just keep going. Just keep choosing roles and modifiers. I mean clearly this isn't going to happen. But I guess you could just stop after each player has a role and modifier
Since such a setup would be unbalanced I would propose setting a lower limit for that case in which a rerun is done. Not sure what is fair, probably 5 or so.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 01:13:47 pm by Calamitas »
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Oh, i just don't like mafia games.

Town (5/9): M85, RMM35, M87, NM9, M90RMM38, M92, M91, M102,
Scum (3/3): M84, M88, M100

MVPs (1): M84

silverspawn

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Re: M88: Covert Affairs Mafia (Open for Signups!)
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2016, 01:17:22 pm »

1 Role = Impossible
2 Roles = 41%
3 Roles = 31%
4 Roles = 16%
5 Roles = 07%
6 Roles = 03%
7 Roles = 02%

Not likely, but it could happen. 2% isn't anything like 0.01% which we sometimes have for most extreme setups.

Calamitas

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Re: M88: Covert Affairs Mafia (Open for Signups!)
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2016, 01:18:36 pm »

1 Role = Impossible
2 Roles = 41%
3 Roles = 31%
4 Roles = 16%
5 Roles = 07%
6 Roles = 03%
7 Roles = 02%

Not likely, but it could happen. 2% isn't anything like 0.01% which we sometimes have for most extreme setups.
We are speaking of 7 roles + 7 modifiers with a sum still lower than 7
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Oh, i just don't like mafia games.

Town (5/9): M85, RMM35, M87, NM9, M90RMM38, M92, M91, M102,
Scum (3/3): M84, M88, M100

MVPs (1): M84

silverspawn

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Re: M88: Covert Affairs Mafia (Open for Signups!)
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2016, 01:21:32 pm »

as am I.

Admittedly these numbers are from before the Neapolitan change which we just talked gkrieg into. That might change them a bit. Edit: and I see there are actually more changes. In that case they've probably changed a bunch.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 01:23:08 pm by silverspawn »
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Calamitas

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Re: M88: Covert Affairs Mafia (Open for Signups!)
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2016, 01:26:08 pm »

as am I.

Admittedly these numbers are from before the Neapolitan change which we just talked gkrieg into. That might change them a bit. Edit: and I see there are actually more changes. In that case they've probably changed a bunch.
The probabilty should be a little lower since the expectation value of a random role went up from 2.625 to 2.714
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Oh, i just don't like mafia games.

Town (5/9): M85, RMM35, M87, NM9, M90RMM38, M92, M91, M102,
Scum (3/3): M84, M88, M100

MVPs (1): M84

Roadrunner7671

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Re: M88: Covert Affairs Mafia (Open for Signups!)
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2016, 02:26:14 pm »

Can we talk about this somewhere else? I'm trying to see who /inned and I'm just greeted with math  :P
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Calamitas

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Re: M88: Covert Affairs Mafia (Open for Signups!)
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2016, 02:27:19 pm »

Can we talk about this somewhere else? I'm trying to see who /inned and I'm just greeted with math  :P
Look at the OP to see who inned :P
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Oh, i just don't like mafia games.

Town (5/9): M85, RMM35, M87, NM9, M90RMM38, M92, M91, M102,
Scum (3/3): M84, M88, M100

MVPs (1): M84

gkrieg13

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Re: M88: Covert Affairs Mafia (Open for Signups!)
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2016, 03:17:25 pm »

as am I.

Admittedly these numbers are from before the Neapolitan change which we just talked gkrieg into. That might change them a bit. Edit: and I see there are actually more changes. In that case they've probably changed a bunch.

I changed them in a way that will make it more fun (it should be more balanced), but that doesn't make it overly complicated (I hope)
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Calamitas

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Re: M88: Covert Affairs Mafia (Open for Signups!)
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2016, 03:20:31 pm »

as am I.

Admittedly these numbers are from before the Neapolitan change which we just talked gkrieg into. That might change them a bit. Edit: and I see there are actually more changes. In that case they've probably changed a bunch.

I changed them in a way that will make it more fun (it should be more balanced), but that doesn't make it overly complicated (I hope)
It doesn't make it more complicated, I think silver means that the script he wrote for m85 doesn't deliver accurate results anymore with the changes.

What do you think of my suggestion in regard to the algorithm? (If 7 roles and modifiers are randomized and the sum is below x, the roll is ignored and another one is taken due to balance problems. I would suggest to set x to 5)
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Oh, i just don't like mafia games.

Town (5/9): M85, RMM35, M87, NM9, M90RMM38, M92, M91, M102,
Scum (3/3): M84, M88, M100

MVPs (1): M84

gkrieg13

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Re: M88: Covert Affairs Mafia (Open for Signups!)
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2016, 03:24:22 pm »

as am I.

Admittedly these numbers are from before the Neapolitan change which we just talked gkrieg into. That might change them a bit. Edit: and I see there are actually more changes. In that case they've probably changed a bunch.

I changed them in a way that will make it more fun (it should be more balanced), but that doesn't make it overly complicated (I hope)
It doesn't make it more complicated, I think silver means that the script he wrote for m85 doesn't deliver accurate results anymore with the changes.

What do you think of my suggestion in regard to the algorithm? (If 7 roles and modifiers are randomized and the sum is below x, the roll is ignored and another one is taken due to balance problems. I would suggest to set x to 5)

I really think the probability of this happening is low enough that I would just reroll the entire setup, or just stop when this happens (because who doesn't want to see a game with 7 random RBs right?).  I would probably just stop when all town have roles and modifiers.
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Calamitas

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Re: M88: Covert Affairs Mafia (Open for Signups!)
« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2016, 03:32:47 pm »

as am I.

Admittedly these numbers are from before the Neapolitan change which we just talked gkrieg into. That might change them a bit. Edit: and I see there are actually more changes. In that case they've probably changed a bunch.

I changed them in a way that will make it more fun (it should be more balanced), but that doesn't make it overly complicated (I hope)
It doesn't make it more complicated, I think silver means that the script he wrote for m85 doesn't deliver accurate results anymore with the changes.

What do you think of my suggestion in regard to the algorithm? (If 7 roles and modifiers are randomized and the sum is below x, the roll is ignored and another one is taken due to balance problems. I would suggest to set x to 5)

I really think the probability of this happening is low enough that I would just reroll the entire setup, or just stop when this happens (because who doesn't want to see a game with 7 random RBs right?).  I would probably just stop when all town have roles and modifiers.
I meant rerolling the whole setup in such a case :D
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Oh, i just don't like mafia games.

Town (5/9): M85, RMM35, M87, NM9, M90RMM38, M92, M91, M102,
Scum (3/3): M84, M88, M100

MVPs (1): M84

silverspawn

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Re: M88: Covert Affairs Mafia (Open for Signups!)
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2016, 03:35:38 pm »

I you do put in hard "re-roll setup"-rules, make sure to announce them before you randomize it.

gkrieg13

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Re: M88: Covert Affairs Mafia (Open for Signups!)
« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2016, 05:41:09 pm »

I'll put in that I also stop if all players have roles and modifiers
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: M88: Covert Affairs Mafia (Open for Signups!)
« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2016, 10:55:10 am »

This is a 9 player game, what's the holdup?
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Calamitas

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Re: M88: Covert Affairs Mafia (Open for Signups!)
« Reply #47 on: October 25, 2016, 10:57:42 am »

This is a 9 player game, what's the holdup?
Too few players right now :/
Silver and igu are on a break as far as I know. Additionally, M87 is running parallel. But yeah, this should fill faster :)
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Oh, i just don't like mafia games.

Town (5/9): M85, RMM35, M87, NM9, M90RMM38, M92, M91, M102,
Scum (3/3): M84, M88, M100

MVPs (1): M84

Joseph2302

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Re: M88: Covert Affairs Mafia (Open for Signups!)
« Reply #48 on: October 25, 2016, 05:06:29 pm »

This is a 9 player game, what's the holdup?
Too few players right now :/
Silver and igu are on a break as far as I know. Additionally, M87 is running parallel. But yeah, this should fill faster :)
I'm on a break too.
/tag
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Mafia Stats: (correct as of 2017)
Town: 22 games, 8 wins
Scum: 5 games, 3 wins

Calamitas

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Re: M88: Covert Affairs Mafia (Open for Signups!)
« Reply #49 on: October 25, 2016, 05:07:10 pm »

This is a 9 player game, what's the holdup?
Too few players right now :/
Silver and igu are on a break as far as I know. Additionally, M87 is running parallel. But yeah, this should fill faster :)
I'm on a break too.
/tag
:'(
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Oh, i just don't like mafia games.

Town (5/9): M85, RMM35, M87, NM9, M90RMM38, M92, M91, M102,
Scum (3/3): M84, M88, M100

MVPs (1): M84
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